RE: Defended my home (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 8:24:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Musicmystery asked if I had ever been in a similar situation.


I did?



Marc2b -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 9:30:33 PM)

quote:

ROTFL Very good Marc, that is however Northern Canadian, we who are not quite so Northern don't use "eh" quite so much. In fact I don't think you'll find a single one in my posts lol.


True. Most of my travels in Canada have been in the Southern Ontario region and the "eh," while not entirely absent, is not wide spread there. I think it tends to be more of a rural rather than urban thing. The place I most noticed it is the Gerogian Bay area.

Even in places where it is more widespread the "eh" tends to be subtle and I think many Americans would miss it if they didn't know to listen for it. The only time it bothers me is when I go to see Shakespeare plays in Stratford:

"To be or not to be, eh? That is the question, eh?"

[:)]



WyldHrt -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 10:11:09 PM)

quote:

Lets see how many times have I said it. Tthey were not to compare exactly why are you so fixated?

Could be because of this, Butch:
quote:

Hey guess what...you’re full of crap...again... this situation happened to me exactly

Seriously, I'm sorry you are feeling like you've been attacked, but your posts have been kind of all over the place and it is hard to follow your stream of thought from what you have written. You keep posting that you don't blame Orion and all that, but many of those same posts go on to become highly critical, with "he should have" and "he could haves" all over the place. That does not indicate, to me, a general discussion of what to do in general if a burglar breaks in. As has already been pointed out, you also made several fairly inflammatory statements, some of which were simply incorrect. When I tried to turn the discussion by mentioning that the advice in the article you posted was useless to me, you immediately brought things back to Orion, and also made several assumptions about me that were very wrong. I won't say that you brought it all on yourself, but you were in there swinging the whole time.
$.02




breatheasone -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 10:14:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt,
Seriously, I'm sorry you are feeling like you've been attacked, but your posts have been kind of all over the place and it is hard to follow your stream of thought from what you have written. You keep posting that you don't blame Orion and all that, but many of those same posts go on to become highly critical, with "he should have" and "he could haves" all over the place. That does not indicate, to me, a general discussion of what to do in general if a burglar breaks in. As has already been pointed out, you also made several fairly inflammatory statements, some of which were simply incorrect. When I tried to turn the discussion by mentioning that the advice in the article you posted was useless to me, you immediately brought things back to Orion, and also made several assumptions about me that were very wrong. I won't say that you brought it all on yourself, but you were in there swinging the whole time.
$.02

Thank you for saying, what i have been thinking, with such grace, and class.



rulemylife -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 11:05:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

No. I've seen some very logical arguments on this side, from Lady Pact, WildHrt, Kirata, Lockit, and others I'm probably forgetting at the moment. I have yet to see a single logical argument from your side of the debate. Rule took a shot at it with his discussion of accidental child deaths, but missed a couple of opportunities to shape it into an effective argument. Nobody else - without exception - has even come close to making a lucid argument against whatever aspect of gun ownership they happen to oppose. Every "argument" is ultimately stripped down to magical thinking - "well, guns are bad, that's all, and I just want them to go away!", or "well, he should have done something differently. I don't know what, but that's not my problem to figure out, it's his fault for not figuring it out!" Totally illogical. Without exception.


Or maybe it is your own biases and beliefs that are coloring your perception of what is logical thinking and what is not.



WyldHrt -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 11:09:41 PM)

quote:

I don't even know how to respond to that.

Obviously
quote:

You are seriously trying to say that someone who leaves an unattended, loaded gun on a table and their 3 year old child blows a hole through his forehead with it  is "just another accident" comparable to falling off a bicycle or a skateboard?

As Kirata pointed out (thank you, K), I said no such thing. What I said was that if you are worried about child safety, you should be worried about all the needless, preventable situations that lead to the death of a child, not only the ones that involve a gun. Hence my previous suggestion of mandatory parenting classes (the bit about CPS was tongue in cheek, but I pretty much meant the rest), which lead to the post you quoted.

I have to be honest, though. I see very little difference between the incident in the article and any number of other stupid things parents can do that result in the death of a child. Is the child who drowns in the tub because Mommy leaves to answer the phone, or the child killed by the car airbag because Daddy couldn't be arsed to use the child seat any less dead because there was not a gun involved? Are the parents any less culpable? Do the families grieve any less? No. The result is the same, a dead child; the cause is the same, irresponsible and careless parents; and the effect is the same, a grieving family and (hopefully) charges filed against the parent responsible.
quote:

This was in response to my link about a 3 year-old shooting himself with an unattended, loaded weapon placed carelessly on an end table.

No, it wasn't. I said nothing at all about the story in the link. I responded to the words I quoted:
quote:

How about we try mandatory classes for parents to learn how to keep guns securely away from children?

nothing more.
quote:

So tell me again, how is there no implied connection or an implied defense of the actions that resulted in this child's death?

There is no connection because I wasn't referring to the link at all, simply to your words. As for "defense of the actions", I won't dignify that with an answer.



blacksword404 -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 11:12:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

I guess we will have to agree to disagree....I think even if he had prefaced all of his comments with a ringing endorsement for what Orion claimed....but than went further and suggested some of his alternatives...he still would have got blasted.
Hell one poster(and I'm not going back to look for it,this thread is too damm long) remarking on one of his posts concerning a defensive choice....responded that her father had a word for a man who would do that....."pussy".
This has been for the most part and in the hands of most responders a love in for pulling the trigger.....one disagree's with that at their own peril.....even when the one is nominally on your side.


If you as a man would hide in your room with the gun pointed at your door when you know you have other family out in the house.. Pussy    It's one thing if you got your family safe in there with you.

That whole "I'm safe fuck my other family members" attitude does not sit well with me. You want to be recognized as a man? Act like one. You come last.



rulemylife -> RE: Defended my home (12/10/2009 11:20:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Children getting killed by careless gun ownership is completely preventable.



This is where I think we have a fundamental divergence in viewpoint. I don't think that anything is completely preventable. The most you can do is reduce the risk of any danger or threat. Since we live in a world with limited resources, it makes sense to spend them reducing the risks that are most likely to occur.

What is your proposal to reduce the number of accidental shooting deaths of children to zero permanently and how would it be implemented?


Oh gee, I don't know........................how about not leaving a fucking loaded gun on an end table with a three year old in the house?

Think that might be a good start?




zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Defended my home (12/11/2009 2:38:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

ROTFL Very good Marc, that is however Northern Canadian, we who are not quite so Northern don't use "eh" quite so much. In fact I don't think you'll find a single one in my posts lol.


True. Most of my travels in Canada have been in the Southern Ontario region and the "eh," while not entirely absent, is not wide spread there. I think it tends to be more of a rural rather than urban thing. The place I most noticed it is the Gerogian Bay area.

Even in places where it is more widespread the "eh" tends to be subtle and I think many Americans would miss it if they didn't know to listen for it. The only time it bothers me is when I go to see Shakespeare plays in Stratford:

"To be or not to be, eh? That is the question, eh?"

[:)]



Ah yes Bob and Doug Mackenzie's MacBeth truly a special experience [:D] [;)]

ETA: Even better is their Romeo and Juliet: Romeo, oh Romeo, where the hell y'at, eh ya hoser?



zephyroftheNorth -> RE: Defended my home (12/11/2009 2:58:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
How about these from my posts.


Too late. Your first post set the tone for how you were perceived. If you'd said any of the things you just posted in your original thread, you might have saved youself a lot of trouble.



Why is it too late? He admits time and again that he posted in error. Are you trying to say that when someone makes a mistake it's too late to apologise? Yes people will get the wrong idea but if they keep reading they will realise that he has since clarified his position.

ETA: That said, Wyld is right, Butch, your posts have been all over the place, it's not hard to understand why people would think you are second-guessing Orion.

Zeph



DomImus -> RE: Defended my home (12/11/2009 6:37:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

No. I've seen some very logical arguments on this side, from Lady Pact, WildHrt, Kirata, Lockit, and others I'm probably forgetting at the moment. I have yet to see a single logical argument from your side of the debate. Rule took a shot at it with his discussion of accidental child deaths, but missed a couple of opportunities to shape it into an effective argument. Nobody else - without exception - has even come close to making a lucid argument against whatever aspect of gun ownership they happen to oppose. Every "argument" is ultimately stripped down to magical thinking - "well, guns are bad, that's all, and I just want them to go away!", or "well, he should have done something differently. I don't know what, but that's not my problem to figure out, it's his fault for not figuring it out!" Totally illogical. Without exception.


That's the entirety of the gun control debate and it's been like that since day one. It's little more than "I don't like them". Substitute other issues for handguns and apply that same logic to "blacks living in my neighborhood" or "gays being allowed to marry" and the same folks will show their outrage in short order. Why "I don't like them" alone is a valid defense for gun control is a mystery.

Then there's the zero tolerance policy. If one child is killed accidentally by a firearm ("unless it's your child" - right, rule?) we have to remove all firearms from the public. Total ban, nothing less. Children die in bicycle accidents. Where is the outrage there? Why are there no pickets outside the Schwinn bike shop? Children die in ATV accidents. Why no protests outside the Honda facility? But one handgun accident is one too many and we have to remove them all from society. If one child death is one too many than lets eliminate all the risks. No, we can't do that. The gun control lobby enjoys bicycles and ATVs.

The gun control movement can be condensed down to this: I'm not interested in exercising that right and I won't miss it so I'm going to take it away from you, as well. It's all emotion. No logic. No critical thought.





DomImus -> RE: Defended my home (12/11/2009 6:39:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Children getting killed by careless gun ownership is completely preventable.



This is where I think we have a fundamental divergence in viewpoint. I don't think that anything is completely preventable. The most you can do is reduce the risk of any danger or threat. Since we live in a world with limited resources, it makes sense to spend them reducing the risks that are most likely to occur.

What is your proposal to reduce the number of accidental shooting deaths of children to zero permanently and how would it be implemented?


Oh gee, I don't know........................how about not leaving a fucking loaded gun on an end table with a three year old in the house?

Think that might be a good start?




I don't leave loaded guns out where three year old children can find them.

May I keep mine, please?

Oh, wait. I forgot. They're all bad.



InvisibleBlack -> RE: Defended my home (12/11/2009 7:50:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Oh gee, I don't know........................how about not leaving a fucking loaded gun on an end table with a three year old in the house?

Think that might be a good start?



Okay. Let's try this again. How do you plan to ensure that everyone in America who has a firearm never does that under any possible circumstances? You said "completely preventable".

I agree with you it's stupid and dumb. I agree with you, it's irresponsible and the results are tragic. I'm asking how you intend to ensure that it's impossible that it could never happen to anyone in the country under any circumstances.

"how about not leaving a fucking loaded gun on an end table with a three year old in the house?" isn't a plan. It's an attitude. Shouting that does nothing to prevent the 151 people who are going to do something stupid like that this year and have their child shoot themselves. I suspect if you asked them, prior to the accident, they would even agree that's stupid and then go ahead and do it anyway.

What's your plan? What's your proposal? What's the idea to stop it?



slvemike4u -> RE: Defended my home (12/11/2009 7:50:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

I guess we will have to agree to disagree....I think even if he had prefaced all of his comments with a ringing endorsement for what Orion claimed....but than went further and suggested some of his alternatives...he still would have got blasted.
Hell one poster(and I'm not going back to look for it,this thread is too damm long) remarking on one of his posts concerning a defensive choice....responded that her father had a word for a man who would do that....."pussy".
This has been for the most part and in the hands of most responders a love in for pulling the trigger.....one disagree's with that at their own peril.....even when the one is nominally on your side.


If you as a man would hide in your room with the gun pointed at your door when you know you have other family out in the house.. Pussy    It's one thing if you got your family safe in there with you.

That whole "I'm safe fuck my other family members" attitude does not sit well with me. You want to be recognized as a man? Act like one. You come last.
I do hope you are not personalizing the above scenario......one,it wasn't of my construct...therefore I never siad it is how I would handle it.....two ,since I don't own nor will in the future a handgun...it won't be me sitting behind a door with a loaded weapon in my hand while the rest of my family is in danger.
Were it me constructing the scenario....I will tell you this much .I beleive in stout doors and sturdy locks.....I beleive in a large  and loyal dog...with very sharp teeth and a dislike of strangers.....and as a last line of defence...I beleive in old reliable a Louisville slugger(a good size model....not too heavy...it's about bat speed ..not bulk).
Now with all that...are some things still left to chance...of course,but no matter how well armed you might be I'm sure I can come up with a scenario that would leave you as defenceless as you see me being?
Shit happens...I'm not living my life in fear of it.



rulemylife -> RE: Defended my home (12/11/2009 7:52:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus


I don't leave loaded guns out where three year old children can find them.

May I keep mine, please?

Oh, wait. I forgot. They're all bad.



A poor assumption on your part, which is not surprising.

You seem to believe that anyone who wants any type of regulation on firearms believes they should be banned.

I would like to keep mine too.

Which is why I cannot understand the people that try to rationalize children shooting themselves as "accidents". 

There is absolutely no excuse for something like that happening and one of the reasons you see so many people wanting to ban guns is the ignorant and arrogant attitude of those willing to dismiss something completely preventable and trying to compare it with a bicycle accident.

A child shooting himself with a gun IS NOT AN ACCIDENT.

It is negligence.  Criminal negligence.  And there are those who have been prosecuted and convicted on that basis.





slvemike4u -> RE: Defended my home (12/11/2009 8:06:14 AM)

No no Rule all that seek logical gun control laws are just wolves in sheeps clothing....They are all out to start an inevitable slide that ends with a house to house search of every home in America stripping law abiding citizens of their firearms.
How do we know this....because the NRA say's so thats how!



rulemylife -> RE: Defended my home (12/11/2009 8:13:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack


Okay. Let's try this again. How do you plan to ensure that everyone in America who has a firearm never does that under any possible circumstances? You said "completely preventable".

I agree with you it's stupid and dumb. I agree with you, it's irresponsible and the results are tragic. I'm asking how you intend to ensure that it's impossible that it could never happen to anyone in the country under any circumstances.

"how about not leaving a fucking loaded gun on an end table with a three year old in the house?" isn't a plan. It's an attitude. Shouting that does nothing to prevent the 151 people who are going to do something stupid like that this year and have their child shoot themselves. I suspect if you asked them, prior to the accident, they would even agree that's stupid and then go ahead and do it anyway.

What's your plan? What's your proposal? What's the idea to stop it?


When I say completely preventable it means just that.

No, I cannot control the stupidity of others, nor will any law be able to stop that.

But the first step may be instituting some common sense licensing and education requirements to lessen some of the stupidity.

It astounds me that I have to have a license and carry a guide book and tape measure to know what fish I can catch and what I have to throw back.

Meanwhile, I can go into Wal-Mart and purchase the deadly weapon of my choice with no restrictions.





rulemylife -> RE: Defended my home (12/11/2009 8:37:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt

I have to be honest, though. I see very little difference between the incident in the article and any number of other stupid things parents can do that result in the death of a child. Is the child who drowns in the tub because Mommy leaves to answer the phone, or the child killed by the car airbag because Daddy couldn't be arsed to use the child seat any less dead because there was not a gun involved? Are the parents any less culpable? Do the families grieve any less? No. The result is the same, a dead child; the cause is the same, irresponsible and careless parents; and the effect is the same, a grieving family and (hopefully) charges filed against the parent responsible.



The results are the same, the causes are not.

A tub is a necessity, a gun is not.

A tub is made for bathing, a gun is made for killing.

You need to treat the latter with far more respect and caution because its purpose is to be lethal.

Anyone who can't appreciate the difference has no business owning one.



InvisibleBlack -> RE: Defended my home (12/11/2009 8:51:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

I agree with you it's stupid and dumb. I agree with you, it's irresponsible and the results are tragic. I'm asking how you intend to ensure that it's impossible that it could never happen to anyone in the country under any circumstances.


When I say completely preventable it means just that.

No, I cannot control the stupidity of others, nor will any law be able to stop that.

But the first step may be instituting some common sense licensing and education requirements to lessen some of the stupidity.

It astounds me that I have to have a license and carry a guide book and tape measure to know what fish I can catch and what I have to throw back.

Meanwhile, I can go into Wal-Mart and purchase the deadly weapon of my choice with no restrictions.


Here in NYC, where I live, you cannot purchase a deadly weapon in Wal-Mart (actually we don't have Wal-Marts here) or any store without obtaining a license. It will take a minimum of 3 months to obtain a rifle/shotgun permit and better than a year to obtain a pistol permit. You will be fingerprinted and your background will be checked. You will have to read a whole series of regulations and rules, and the law mandates that you must purchase a child-safety locking device and submit the receipt and provide proof that you keep your firearm locked in a safe or other secure container.

Every year we still have children accidentally shot. It makes the news in the local papers and on the radio when it happens. The parents are indeed prosecuted for criminal negligence and, if it's an illegal gun and they did not follow the above laws, for those crimes as well.

It hasn't been completely prevented. Children are still dying.

What's the next step? 



mnottertail -> RE: Defended my home (12/11/2009 9:06:41 AM)

Point of order:

I have to agree with InvisibleBlack for the most part, there is no retail or wholesale outlet that permits the buying of any firearm without an FBI background check, or a valid FFLC (which requires a fuckload more checks). BTW in the pawn business, you pawn me a gun you gotta go thru a ATF4473 and FBI background check to get it back, or if I resell it, same.....thats federal, not state.

The exceptions are:
firearms that are curios and relics.
household guns that are part of a larger auction sale, where they are not the focus of the sale, that is, by example you have 10 guns and one sofa......or anything else that could 'by any reasonable man' be considered an evasion of statute (and the ATF looks at damn near every auctionbill in this country)
private transfers of ownership (but if anyone along the line has filled out an ATF 4473.........) and the firearm is subsequently used in a crime somebody is going to jail, if not the perp, the 4473 signatory............
------------------------------------------
Having said that, that is the nutshell law and people violate it all the time.

While I am not a big fan of this, trigger locks for your firearms are available from your local law enforcement agency for free.....................

Ron



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