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VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all spec... - 12/7/2009 4:40:28 AM   
Brain


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Status: offline 		VIDEO
If the world fails to act we can see huge declines in wildlife populations around the world

Climate change threatens “a third of all species” - Climate : news, world | euronews

Even elephants cannot escape climate change. More dry periods might further shrink their living space leading to more conflict with humans over scarce resources. Wildlife and ecosystems are facing potential disaster from global warming, say environmentalists.

http://www.euronews.net/2009/12/07/climate-change-threatens-a-third-of-all-species/
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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 7:52:14 AM   
Brain


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Status: offline 		I just want to keep fighting these climate change deniers. They have got to be people involved in oil companies and coal companies. That’s the only thing that makes any sense, explains why they keep denying it, because the evidence for global warming is overwhelming.


"Sensitive" Oil Industry Memo Lays Out Plan For Astroturf Rallies Against Climate Change Bill | TPMMuckraker

The memo -- sent by the American Petroleum Institute and obtained by Greenpeace, which sent it to reporters -- urges oil companies to recruit their employees for events that will "put a human face on the impacts of unsound energy policy," and will urge senators to "avoid the mistakes embodied in the House climate bill."

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/sensitive_oil_industry_memo_lays_out_plan_for_astr.php?ref=fpa


(in reply to Brain)
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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 8:08:05 AM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		That video is missing something, the 10 year old footage of a polar bear floating away on a shrinking piece of ice.

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 8:08:22 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

I just want to keep fighting these climate change deniers.


I just want to keep pointing out to these religious folks that things happen naturally.

The one things all these other mass extinctions have in common - NONE occurred while man was the predominant species on the planet.

Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction, about 65 million years ago, probably caused or aggravated by impact of several-mile-wide asteroid that created the Chicxulub crater now hidden on the Yucatan Peninsula and beneath the Gulf of Mexico. Some argue for other causes, including gradual climate change or flood-like volcanic eruptions of basalt lava from Indias Deccan Traps. The extinction killed 16 percent of marine families, 47 percent of marine genera (the classification above species) and 18 percent of land vertebrate families, including the dinosaurs.

End Triassic extinction, roughly 199 million to 214 million years ago, most likely caused by massive floods of lava erupting from the central Atlantic magmatic province -- an event that triggered the opening of the Atlantic Ocean. The volcanism may have led to deadly global warming. Rocks from the eruptions now are found in the eastern United States, eastern Brazil, North Africa and Spain. The death toll: 22 percent of marine families, 52 percent of marine genera. Vertebrate deaths are unclear.

Permian-Triassic extinction, about 251 million years ago. Many scientists suspect a comet or asteroid impact, although direct evidence has not been found. Others believe the cause was flood volcanism from the Siberian Traps and related loss of oxygen in the seas. Still others believe the impact triggered the volcanism and also may have done so during the Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction. The Permian-Triassic catastrophe was Earths worst mass extinction, killing 95 percent of 53 percent of marine families, 84 percent of marine genera and an estimated 70 percent of land species such as plants, insects and vertebrate animals.

Late Devonian extinction, about 364 million years ago, cause unknown. It killed 22 percent of marine families and 57 percent of marine genera. Erwin said little is known about land organisms at the time.

Ordovician-Silurian extinction, about 439 million years ago, caused by a drop in sea levels as glaciers formed, then by rising sea levels as glaciers melted. The toll: 25 percent of marine families and 60 percent of marine genera.

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 8:33:38 AM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		Instead of selling on e-bay, I think I'll just call Brain. He'll buy anything.

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 9:53:40 AM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I just want to keep fighting these climate change deniers. They have got to be people involved in oil companies and coal companies. That’s the only thing that makes any sense, explains why they keep denying it, because the evidence for global warming is overwhelming.


"Sensitive" Oil Industry Memo Lays Out Plan For Astroturf Rallies Against Climate Change Bill | TPMMuckraker

The memo -- sent by the American Petroleum Institute and obtained by Greenpeace, which sent it to reporters -- urges oil companies to recruit their employees for events that will "put a human face on the impacts of unsound energy policy," and will urge senators to "avoid the mistakes embodied in the House climate bill."

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/sensitive_oil_industry_memo_lays_out_plan_for_astr.php?ref=fpa




Free-market fundamentalists and anarcho-capitalists cannot accept climate change, because it's potentially the greatest market failure in the long and sordid history of market failures. Clean air, water, reliable food supplies, and stable 'temperature' were the only commons left, and they're being destroyed by the logic of privitization supported by force and violence.

For a down-to-earth understanding of how this process works, I'd recommend John Perkins' bestselling book 'Confessions of an Economic Hit Man'.



< Message edited by Silence8 -- 12/7/2009 9:55:01 AM >

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 10:16:03 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Free-market fundamentalists and anarcho-capitalists cannot accept climate change, because it's potentially the greatest market failure in the long and sordid history of market failures.


NO-NO-NO!

It's the poor people 'anarcho-socialists' flying into Copenhagen on private jets and driving to the conference in limos - 1/limo; who are trying to create a market failure to replace it with one that insures that private passenger automobiles, and commercial airliners will be banned creating less traffic for their limos and private jets.

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 10:20:16 AM   
AnimusRex


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Status: offline 		But thats the problem with this whole issue- global warming is really a proxy for the real argument, isn't it? It is just an excuse to indulge in the rehashing of the Cold War- capitalism versus socialism, free markets versus the command economy.

Which is nonsense. There is no contradiction between changing to a sustainable industrial society, and free markets. We can have ecologically responsible economies, and still have freedom to own property and buy and sell things.

When you regard responsible stewardship of the planet as a stalking horse for one-world socialism, of course it becomes frightening.

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 10:33:06 AM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

But thats the problem with this whole issue- global warming is really a proxy for the real argument, isn't it? It is just an excuse to indulge in the rehashing of the Cold War- capitalism versus socialism, free markets versus the command economy.

Which is nonsense. There is no contradiction between changing to a sustainable industrial society, and free markets. We can have ecologically responsible economies, and still have freedom to own property and buy and sell things.

When you regard responsible stewardship of the planet as a stalking horse for one-world socialism, of course it becomes frightening.


The simple fact of the matter, though, is that if you wait for market mechanisms to sort things out, likely 1/3rd to 2/3rds of the world population, who were never really integrated into the global economy to begin with, will already be dead. You can't 'vote with your money' if global imperialism never gave you money to begin with.

The old ideological issues reemerge because they were never resolved in the slightest, and the subsequent contradictions have intensified.

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 10:39:29 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

There is no contradiction between changing to a sustainable industrial society, and free markets. We can have ecologically responsible economies, and still have freedom to own property and buy and sell things.

When you regard responsible stewardship of the planet as a stalking horse for one-world socialism, of course it becomes frightening.


I know of no disbeliever, or heretics as they are called, who says that conservation and/or inhibiting pollution is bad. Were their a pragmatic approach being suggested for the transition, one that truly takes on equal, global, application of pragmatically 'good' conservation ideas - I'd be a 'convert'. It's a position of exclusivity to any other option, or opinion, where they loss me and many others who don't see a unilateral abdication of western industry while at the same time not inhibiting the pollution generated from other countries, as anything other than agenda serving.

Anyone watching the celebrity event in Copenhagen can't being seeing 'socialism' exhibited based upon the first class limos and private jets common to the elitists in attendance. It's a great press agency working to even have some believers think that socialism is being served. This is nothing more, or less, than a scheme to make money. The 'scientists' were the first to realize this (smart people those scientists!). I get grants if I support 'global warming'; I have to go beg to an oil company if I don't? Where do I sign on?

Socialism? This is pragmatic capitalism at its finest. They even have the general public thinking, as they did regarding GM when it was said; "What's good for General Motors is good for the USA!" Those in Copenhagen want the same attitude for the entire world; "What's good for Global Warming is good for the world!" It requires a global capitalist to think on those terms.

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 10:42:34 AM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

Which is nonsense. There is no contradiction between changing to a sustainable industrial society, and free markets. We can have ecologically responsible economies, and still have freedom to own property and buy and sell things.



If there is no contradiction, it's because the free market is something of fairy tale, describing an ideal that was never realized. Of course we can have ecologically responsible economies, and of course it'll be a command political economy, as always, the question is whether it'll admit of one or two distinct classes.

Now, the question becomes: which type of society will be less likely to kill itself? Which will be more divisive? Which more responsible? Which more sustainable?

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 10:42:59 AM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play?p=twelve+days+of+global+warming+video&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-701&SpellState=n-2794036317_q-0oH2hdgnF8gIiKnfiETh6gAAAA%40%40&tnr=21&vid=0001546317931

yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!

It really has been a religion.

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 11:13:19 AM   
AnimusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
I know of no disbeliever, or heretics as they are called, who says that conservation and/or inhibiting pollution is bad. Were their a pragmatic approach being suggested for the transition, one that truly takes on equal, global, application of pragmatically 'good' conservation ideas - I'd be a 'convert'. It's a position of exclusivity to any other option, or opinion, where they loss me and many others who don't see a unilateral abdication of western industry while at the same time not inhibiting the pollution generated from other countries, as anything other than agenda serving.


What I am doing here is trying to find areas where reasonable people can agree. I believe this is one.

If the only voices being heard are Al Gore and Rush Limbaugh, the areas for agreement are pretty small.
But there are others- I referenced once before the book The Natural Step; the premise of the book is that the modern industrial processes of extracting, refining, using and disposing of natural resources is not just unsustainable to the natural world- but that it is actually poisoning and destroying our world, that it is a threat to us, not just polar bears.

It makes the point that the very same creativity and energy that powers the capitalist economies can be used to design processes that are efficient, and sustainable. It only requires that we look at the long term, instead of the short term, and that we look at the overall life cycle of things, not just the immediate use.

Are there fatuous gasbags within the global warming circles? Well they are politicians, what did you expect?

But laughing at Al Gore, or mocking climate scientists who rigged their studies, doesn't address the underlying issue- that we do have a problem, and we need to find solutions.

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 11:23:02 AM   
rockspider


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Status: offline 		The Copenhagen meeting.
Well for one i shall evade Devil Island (The one CPH is on) like the plague while it is going on. First it will be like hell getting through the traffic as ½ our cops is there watching the activistst who wants to smash it. On top of that there will be hundreds of limousines running everywhere. Half the town will be blocked and it will be a right royal circus. I watched Billie the Willie coming to have a chit chat with Mandela back when he was sworn in. In the week leading up to his arival i think 5 C5's arived and unloaded stuff enought to knock over a small banana republic, plus an AWAC. On the day of course the two Airforce one planes arived. I am in no doubt Obama arives in the same manner here. Hell this is a conference to reduce CO2 emission and those daft politicians have to let out more than a small countrys Co2 emision for a year just to discuss it. Havent those guys heard of internet conferences? Politicians = assholes who lives a life on first class on money generated by the little people.

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 12:22:12 PM   
Mercnbeth


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'Untitled'
Excerpted from the book 'Our Choice'

One thin September soon
A floating continent disappears
In midnight sun

Vapors rise as
Fever settles on an acid sea
Neptune's bones dissolve

Snow glides from the mountain
Ice fathers floods for a season
A hard rain comes quickly

Then dirt is parched
Kindling is placed in the forest
For the lightning's celebration

Unknown creatures
Take their leave, unmourned
Horsemen ready their stirrups

Passion seeks heroes and friends
The bell of the city
On the hill is rung

The shepherd cries
The hour of choosing has arrived
Here are your

~ Al Gore
'Global Warming's Pope
&
Poet Laureate'


< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 12/7/2009 12:25:11 PM >

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 1:27:09 PM   
popeye1250


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Status: offline 		Listening to The Howie Carr Show (WRKO-680 AM Boston) and Howie says that they ran out of limosines in Denmark, they're using 1,200 limosines in Copenhagen to shuttle around the attendees!
And, with all the private jets comming they have to use airports in Germany for the overflow!
Oh, and guess who's going to be in attendance too? Those scientific giants Leonardo De Caprio and Darryl Hannah! Whoa!
And Howie said something about the former "reporter" for the New York Times, *Jayson Blair* being in Copenhagen too! lolol!


I thought of a slogan for Copenhagen; "Science through Political Coersion."

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 12/7/2009 1:29:45 PM >

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 2:54:44 PM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rockspider

The Copenhagen meeting.
Well for one i shall evade Devil Island (The one CPH is on) like the plague while it is going on. First it will be like hell getting through the traffic as ½ our cops is there watching the activistst who wants to smash it. On top of that there will be hundreds of limousines running everywhere. Half the town will be blocked and it will be a right royal circus. I watched Billie the Willie coming to have a chit chat with Mandela back when he was sworn in. In the week leading up to his arival i think 5 C5's arived and unloaded stuff enought to knock over a small banana republic, plus an AWAC. On the day of course the two Airforce one planes arived. I am in no doubt Obama arives in the same manner here. Hell this is a conference to reduce CO2 emission and those daft politicians have to let out more than a small countrys Co2 emision for a year just to discuss it. Havent those guys heard of internet conferences? Politicians = assholes who lives a life on first class on money generated by the little people.


Rock let me ask you.   What do the locals think of the treaty?

I am always curious as to what is not main media.

Any thoughts on this??

I doubt those wanting to smash the treaty will get any TV coverage here in the USA.  Our media is like a 24 hour infomercial for big corporations.   Even online the opposition is muted.


< Message edited by pahunkboy -- 12/7/2009 2:56:14 PM >

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 4:02:30 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
I just want to keep pointing out to these religious folks that things happen naturally.

The one things all these other mass extinctions have in common - NONE occurred while man was the predominant species on the planet.


Indeed, none of the extinctions you named occurred whilst man was the predominant species on the planet.

Here's one mass extinction you missed out though - and its an interesting one considering the state of debate as it regards the US - the mass extinction, over a very short period even for mass extinctions, of nearly all the major mammals in North America - elephants, horses and all manner of creatures, that coincides rather well with the arrival of man on the continent.

Nothing of course to do with emissions (as far as we know) but very much connected from the fossil evidence with the arrival of a predator equipped with superior hunting equipment and techniques, and importantly, an attitude that the environment was inexhaustible to its desires and its ever growing numbers supported by prolonged and sustained over-hunting.

This mass extinction is thought to have threatened man as a species on the continent, what with the depreciation in food supply, and given rise to the "eco-friendly" attitudes of native peoples found when the white man arrived to continue the process, this time with guns.

What this shows is that these things dont necessarily happen naturally, that the effects of the most successful species (to date in this era) on this planet can also cause these things. Therein is a lesson of caution to us now - there will be only one real loser if we get this climate change thing wrong, us.

It seems rather more wise not to go hunting so much if the prey are smaller in number this year, until we know why that might be.

E



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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 4:08:33 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		The Dodo, the great auk, the yangtze dolphin and Stella's sea cow aren't extinct?

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 4:31:26 PM   
AnimusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Nothing of course to do with emissions (as far as we know) but very much connected from the fossil evidence with the arrival of a predator equipped with superior hunting equipment and techniques, and importantly, an attitude that the environment was inexhaustible to its desires and its ever growing numbers supported by prolonged and sustained over-hunting.

What this shows is that these things dont necessarily happen naturally, that the effects of the most successful species (to date in this era) on this planet can also cause these things. Therein is a lesson of caution to us now - there will be only one real loser if we get this climate change thing wrong, us.


There are several theories as to the sudden extinction of the Anasazi people in the Southwest US. Most of the theories involve the people destroying their environment by over logging, exhausting their crop yields, in general trashing the place, until it became unlivable.
They either all died, or dispersed and vanished as a people.

Once again- the threat is not to polar bears, but us. It is just very hard to see, when we go to the grocery store and see mounds and mounds of food at dirt cheap prices, but our global economies are actually pretty frail. The farmlands and fisheries that stock our shelves are already in danger of exhaustion.
And once again- socialism isn't a solution- the Soviet Union was one of the most polluted areas on earth.
But intelligent discussions about limits, long term policies and conservation of resources takes reasoned debate- not fixed ideological battles, which is pretty much what we are seeing.

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