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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 4:33:28 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		I was talking about the "clovis mass extinction" AR - but your point is good too

E

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 4:38:32 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

US - the mass extinction, over a very short period even for mass extinctions, of nearly all the major mammals in North America - elephants, horses and all manner of creatures, that coincides rather well with the arrival of man on the continent.

Horses were indigenous to North America, but died out exactly at the same time the elephants died out. The last prehistoric North American horses died out between 13,000 and 11,000 years ago, at the end of the Pleistocene, but by then Equus had spread to Asia, Europe, and Africa.
Those here now were brought here; doing quite well, in some instances living in the wild.

Elephants suffered similiar fate.
In a paper called "Bring Back the Elephants," published in the spring issue of Wild Earth, Martin and co-author David A. Burney note that the disappearance of North American elephants about 13,000 years ago during the late Pleistocene occurred almost yesterday in the geological time frame.They too, like the other extinctions noted, died out long before man was at the top of the food chain.

quote:

What this shows is that these things don't necessarily happen naturally, that the effects of the most successful species (to date in this era) on this planet can also cause these things. Therein is a lesson of caution to us now - there will be only one real loser if we get this climate change thing wrong, us.
Natural extinctions don't point to a natural cause of death. Natural also applies to any specie which takes over the environment it finds itself, to the detriment of species who happened to be there before them. It happens all the time, in the animal and well as plant kingdoms.

Fifteen to twenty years ago some Asian carp got into some rivers and streams as a result of flooding. They've since taken over and comprise over 90% of the fish population and are going fast. So much so, that they've recently tried to poison them.

The most drastic action to date to try to stop Asian carp from getting into Lake Michigan was taken Wednesday, when authorities dumped 2,300 gallons of the fish-killing toxin Rotenone into a 6-mile stretch of the Chicago Sanitary and Ship canal. Authorities conducted the massive fish kill to ensure that no Asian carp were in the waterway and could sneak through while the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers shut down for maintenance an underwater electric barrier designed to turn back the fish.

Nature has a way of taking over. Only humanity has the inappropriate sense of self importance to belief they have, or can, control it in absolute terms or even know all there is necessary to know to have a global impact.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 12/7/2009 4:48:39 PM >

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 4:38:45 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
And once again- socialism isn't a solution- the Soviet Union was one of the most polluted areas on earth.

Wasn't that mostly because they were getting the bulk of their power from burning low grade coal due to the States having OPEC sanction them?

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 4:44:38 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Indeed.

The prosecution might now rest at that point, the case having been clearly established, but I expect this case to roll on and on and on...... so an adjournment is more in order  - as its nearly 1am here, and if I'm late to the office again it'll be me thats in danger of extinction what with the boss being such a bitch.

E
(the boss)

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 4:57:46 PM   
AnimusRex


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Status: offline 		Plenty of reasons, Moonhead, coal being but one.

For instance, the Aral Sea was destroyed in a foolish attempt to siphon off its freshwater supply for cotton irrigation; the result was a devastation of an entire ecosystem, and the fishermen and the local industries that relied on the sea.

Once again, it was the people and the local economies that suffered the destruction. What seemd like a cheap way to get cotton ended up costing the people of that country several times over what they would have spent to adopt sensible sustainable farming practices.

On a purely coincidental note- the San Joaquin Valley in California is locked in a battle currently over water usage- in short, there isn't enough to go around. the battle pits fishermen against cotton farmers against cities.

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 5:04:54 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

Plenty of reasons, Moonhead, coal being but one.

For instance, the Aral Sea was destroyed in a foolish attempt to siphon off its freshwater supply for cotton irrigation; the result was a devastation of an entire ecosystem, and the fishermen and the local industries that relied on the sea.

Once again, it was the people and the local economies that suffered the destruction. What seemd like a cheap way to get cotton ended up costing the people of that country several times over what they would have spent to adopt sensible sustainable farming practices.

On a purely coincidental note- the San Joaquin Valley in California is locked in a battle currently over water usage- in short, there isn't enough to go around. the battle pits fishermen against cotton farmers against cities.

Fair enough.
They've always had problems with irrigation in California, haven't they?

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 5:11:46 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
Plenty of reasons, Moonhead, coal being but one.
On a purely coincidental note- the San Joaquin Valley in California is locked in a battle currently over water usage- in short, there isn't enough to go around. the battle pits fishermen against cotton farmers against cities.

Fair enough.
They've always had problems with irrigation in California, haven't they?


Yes, but you see in CA this isn't about water its about putting a hight priority on a fish, a 'delta smelt' to be precise, versus human consumption or farming.

In 2007, a federal judge ruled state and federal pumps sending some 6 million acre-feet of delta water south to Kern County and other users each year could wipe out the endangered smelt, a tiny silver fish. The court ruled pumping had to be curtailed by about a third until the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service could weigh in on the problem.

I don't see why they just don't call for the elimination of humans. The only sure way to eliminate humans from contributing to the demise of the planet.

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 5:34:04 PM   
AnimusRex


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Status: offline 		For the record-
I do not give a crap about the delta smelt;
but it is a little bit more than that, isn't it?
The San Francisco Bay/ Delta

From the Sierra Club:
The Bay-Delta is also the hub of the state's water system, supplying water to more than 22 million Californians and over 7 million acres of farmland. Our dependence on the Bay-Delta has led to its ecological collapse.

Today:

On average, about half of the fresh water that once flowed naturally into the Bay-Delta is diverted to San Joaquin Valley agribusiness and cities
All but one of the major tributaries to the Bay-Delta are dammed
More than 90 percent of the Bay's original wetlands are lost to development, dredging and landfill
Winter Run Chinook salmon populations have declined by more than 90 percent since the early 1970s
California has lost 75 percent of its commercial salmon fishing boats over the last 15 years
The recreational fishing industry has lost $6 billion over the last 25 years
88 million pounds of pesticides and toxic chemicals flow into the Bay each year
Chemicals in Bay Area fish are known to cause cancer, birth defects, and other health problems in humans

Hey, but other than that, things are great!

The reason the delta smelt was acted upon, is that it is an indicator species, signalling the collapse of the entire ecosystem; salmon, crops, everything.
We are poisoning the very water we depend on. Much of the water is being used for things like cotton and rice, that are exhausting the farmlands, since they are so water-intensive.
Smarter, less water-intensive crops could be planted instead- but this would require long term thinking and policy leadership.



< Message edited by AnimusRex -- 12/7/2009 5:36:17 PM >

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/7/2009 11:10:39 PM   
Brain


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I’m not buying servantforuse krud that’s for sure. 'Confessions of an Economic Hit Man' I bookmarked and WILL read!


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Instead of selling on e-bay, I think I'll just call Brain. He'll buy anything.

quote:

Confessions of an Economic Hit Man'

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/8/2009 8:32:36 AM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain


I’m not buying servantforuse krud that’s for sure. 'Confessions of an Economic Hit Man' I bookmarked and WILL read!


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Instead of selling on e-bay, I think I'll just call Brain. He'll buy anything.

quote:

Confessions of an Economic Hit Man'



After reading countless essays and books about the mechanisms of globalization, the shifty finance, the rogue military operations, this book gives the reader a more concrete understanding of what is actually happening day to day. It's 'down to earth' in the sense that you see how arguably ordinary people can slowly get tangled in a system that is simple unadulterated evil (I'm not religious, by the way). And it appears to be the norm...

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/8/2009 9:20:53 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		http  Perkins is the guy.   You can hear him in this video.

arghhhhhhhh   search vids for economic hit man and he is there

< Message edited by pahunkboy -- 12/8/2009 9:23:03 AM >

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/8/2009 9:55:44 AM   
LadyEllen


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From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

Plenty of reasons, Moonhead, coal being but one.

For instance, the Aral Sea was destroyed in a foolish attempt to siphon off its freshwater supply for cotton irrigation; the result was a devastation of an entire ecosystem, and the fishermen and the local industries that relied on the sea.

Once again, it was the people and the local economies that suffered the destruction. What seemd like a cheap way to get cotton ended up costing the people of that country several times over what they would have spent to adopt sensible sustainable farming practices.

On a purely coincidental note- the San Joaquin Valley in California is locked in a battle currently over water usage- in short, there isn't enough to go around. the battle pits fishermen against cotton farmers against cities.


The recent round the world trip for Children In Need (BBC telethon charity event) called in at some place (dont remember the name) which used to be a fishing village on the Aral Sea. The people are ruined and their boats stand on frames in the middle of nowhere.

But the good news is that steps have been taken to restore the sea; its now about 40 miles from the village and should be lapping the old harbour wall in a decade or so.

Just thought you might be interested.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/8/2009 10:23:22 AM   
AnimusRex


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Status: offline 		I am indeed, Lady E; I read several articles about the ecosystem restoration efforts that are being done. Its tragic that entire villages were destroyed, thousands of people had respriatory problems, and sicknesses associated with the sal-laden dust storms that resulted from the dry sea bed that was exposed.

But this isn't an isolated example- whether it is the Great Barrier Reef, or the Amazon jungle, or the aquifers of the American Great Plains, there isn't a single corner of the world where the eco-system is not under assault, or suffering.
And it isn't about this fish or that snail, it is about the crops and rivers and air that we depend on for our jobs and our food.
Thats what gets missed in this whole global warming debate; people want to turn it into a referendum on a tiny point, but miss the bigger picture.

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/8/2009 10:28:56 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		the great lakes- a chain of 5 fresh water lakes- that look as big as on ocean when you are at the shore of any of them- well guess what caused that?

the melting glaciers.     the same is why the mid west has no mountains.   and where is the justice?    why was there no treaty to stop this madness!!!!

at the same time- the continents were formed closer together even attached- and no here we are. this is the worst day of my life.  unless you send a trillion $ by tonight- we are all going to die a terrible death and the polar bears too will all die in 10 minutes./
\
how dare you breath out- and poo and pee.  we all are going to die.  we better monetise this now because weapon mass destruction

get an axe and kill your family- NOW.  they are putting toxic fumes!!!!  .

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/8/2009 10:30:03 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

But the good news is that steps have been taken to restore the sea; its now about 40 miles from the village and should be lapping the old harbour wall in a decade or so.


Will they also be taking steps to bring back the whales that used to swim in what is now the Wadi Hitan desert in Egypt?
Egypt may not be the first place you'd look for whales, but once upon a time the Wadi Hitan desert was underwater and teeming with the sea giants.

I also think that all those dams and levees I saw in the Netherlands should be eliminated. They were built to encumber the natural progression of the sea. Who knows what devastation that is causing and what species potential goes unrealized by those man made obstructions?

Why is there selectivity about how humanity's existence affects the planet? My answer would be the decision is agenda based and self serving to the religion having authority, but that may be just because I see things pragmatically.

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/8/2009 10:36:57 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		NEWS:

Alex Jones has lord whoever on.   climate gate-

The hackers can not be charged - as protected under whistleblower act in the UK.

The scientists who committed the fraud-  could face prison time.  That both in the US and the UK is punishable by prison.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/   his program streams on his site ....


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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/8/2009 12:37:34 PM   
AnimusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Why is there selectivity about how humanity's existence affects the planet? My answer would be the decision is agenda based and self serving to the religion having authority, but that may be just because I see things pragmatically.


Actually, there is an agenda- The agenda of the Aral Sea restoration project is to preserve and restore ecosystems that provide for mankinds needs; For instance, the Aral Sea once sustained tens of thousands of family's livelihoods and entire villages; the Wadi Sea did not.

I chose the examples of the Aral Sea and Sacramento Delta to illustrate a point; that the real devastation of environmental problems is not to obscure species like smelt or snails, but to humans.

Another example would be New Orleans; Hurricane Katrina would not have been nearly as devastating to it is there were still the network of barrier islands and swamps that used to lie between NO and the Gulf; but over time, dredging and development wiped the islands out, and the city was unprotected from the sea. The economic damage of hundreds of billions of dollars was a direct result of environmental neglect and mismanagement.
Wise and forward thinking development policies over the past decades would have cost next to nothing; and yet the lack of them cost taxpayers several hundred billion dollars.

It is ironic- it is often charged that environmentalists want to value animal life over human needs; and yet in most cases, the two needs are entwined together- if we damage the environment we damage our own economy.

If you want a vibrant, long lasting economy, work to sustain the environment

< Message edited by AnimusRex -- 12/8/2009 12:38:16 PM >

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/8/2009 12:53:44 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

If you want a vibrant, long lasting economy, work to sustain the environment


Who gets to determine which environment to sustain. The one in New Orleans that should exist without human influence or the one that exists today?

The two needs being entwined only comes up when bad examples of attempted manipulation fail. It is arbitrary at best, as well as pointing to the ego of humanity, that manipulating the environment in any fashion doesn't impact it. Environmentalists want to have it both ways. Using the protection of the 'natural' environment when it suits them; advocating for affecting a permanent change in other instances. At first blush is just seem confusing; however when you get into the dollars it is simply a matter of money; the image of hypocrisy that it points to be damned.

A closer look at the cause of the devastation in New Orleans after Katrina points to that reality.

Save Our Wetlands (SOWL) used a lawsuit against the Corps based on the National Environmental Protection Act (NEPA) to halt the Lake Pontchartrain Hurricane Protection Project. Johannes Westerink, a civil engineering professor at Notre Dame who specializes in hurricane storm surge prediction for the Corps, the Navy and a number of states, including Louisiana, believes the 1977 project would have stopped the mean water level in Lake Pontchartrain from rising. "If you had the gates there [from the canceled project], you would stop that water from being pushed into Lake Pontchartrain," he said.

On its website, where it tells the story of its fight to stop the project, SOWL says, "under the guise of hurricane protection, [the plan] would destroy Lake Pontchartrain, drain the wetlands of New Orleans East and promote development in newly drained areas." SOWL also said it would "create hundreds of millions of dollars in dredging contracts for the cronies of the Orleans levee board."

Former Rep. Bob Livingston (R.-La.) blames environmentalist groups for consistently thwarting disaster prevention plans in the New Orleans area. Environmentalists have attacked the Corps at every turn, and have systematically tried to undermine their mission, he said. "They have instigated lawsuits consistently over the years, and have attacked the Corps� role in the media as pork barrel politics. We are now seeing that their idea of 'pork' was really the survival and livelihood of millions of people".

I did a lot of business down there and know many people. They are still not back to 'normal' and doubt they will ever be back to pre-Katrina status.

Although the courts have found the Army Corp of Engineers "guilty" and they are from a pragmatic standpoint. The good, caring, environmentalists should be included in the blame. Ironically a lot of the work blocked by the environmentalists was done by nature without their permission.

That's the thing about nature, as the warming religion data collectors found out and tried to hide; you can't predict it, and for the most part, over time, can't stop it.

However by producing a 'crisis' and generating fear - those limos and private jets in Copenhagen prove you can make a shit load of money selling it.

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/8/2009 1:26:15 PM   
AnimusRex


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Status: offline 		Merc, I think you're looking at this in an either/ or situation, trying to create villains out of "environmentalists". The point I was making is that in ignoring the long term impacts of dredging, the Corps inadvertantly exposed the city to enormous damage; the environmentalists didn't cause nearly the damage that irresponsible development did. What the Corps was doing, ironically, was trying to repair the deamage of the barrier island loss, with artificial and expensive means. It would have been cheaper and better in the long run had the dredging and development been restricted in the first place.

No matter what we do, we are going to have an impact on the environment; so why not look at the long term impacts and try to make the best choices?
There is nothing wrong with industry, or development; but it is better to consider the long term impacts, taking into account the effects of environmental destruction, than it is to try and fix the damage afterward.
I reject this argument of either prosperity or a sustainable environment as a false dilemma. I think the two are connected to each other.

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RE: VIDEO - Climate change threatens “a third of all ... - 12/8/2009 1:33:37 PM   
pahunkboy


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From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHSjCulvb_o

Lord Monckton Returns to Alex Jones Tv 2/5:Lord Monckton Reveals Scientific Fraud at Copenhagen!

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