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One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Costs ... - 12/15/2009 1:35:08 AM

Brain

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For me, this was jaw dropping and I was going to say I have nothing to say. But now I am so mad all I can say is if I hear another Republican/conservative demand tax cuts……….

One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Costs Is Income of Richest 1% - Firedoglake

The Economic Policy Institute provides a much needed counter-weight to those cheerleading the use of Cadillac-as-Chevy taxes to pay for the Senate health care bill. It shows, generally, that the millionaire’s tax used to fund the House bill is far more progressive than the Cadillac-as-Chevy tax used to fund the Senate bill, which ends up taxing those at $20-30,000 more than it taxes those at $500,000 to 1 million a year.

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/12/14/one-of-few-things-growing-as-fast-as-health-care-costs-is-income-of-richest-1/

Post #: 1

RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/15/2009 8:17:19 AM

Silence8

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The tax code should be progressive, and not in brackets. It should be... maybe... parabolic?

Frankly, I've been considering the notion of a salary cap like in baseball, maybe... 50 million US. I'm of the opinion that no one, great or small, is doing anything that great to warrant more than 50 million. Beyond that, money increasingly starts to possess perverse secondary qualities that threaten general well-being.

http://www.neweconomics.org/publications/bit-rich Calculating the real value to society of different professions... a relevant study, that attempts to understand the difference between money value and social worth.

(in reply to Brain)

Post #: 2

RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/15/2009 9:28:15 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

Frankly, I've been considering the notion of a salary cap like in baseball, maybe... 50 million US. I'm of the opinion that no one, great or small, is doing anything that great to warrant more than 50 million. Beyond that, money increasingly starts to possess perverse secondary qualities that threaten general well-being.

Interesting idea, Silence (lest anyone misunderstand, I said it was interesting, as in a thought experiment, not that it was a position I'm advocating). I'm pondering the market implications. I'm wondering too if it just means people would be paid more in kind (yes, technically that's income and taxable, but it's also easier to disguise). Among the arguments for executive pay is that these people would leave. With a cap, that incentive is gone. However, among the problems with middle management is the tendency to feather one's own nest rather than serve the organization. This could become a problem with top management without the incentive to further excel. Why not just fire the ones that don't excel? With a salary cap, how would you attract a new executive with significant experience? Just some thoughts--musing it out.

As to worth, though, markets measure economic value, not inherent worth. The water/diamond paradox is an example in strictly monetary terms. Water is far, far more valuable. Diamonds are far, far more expensive. People are paid largely for their economic impact. A better, more deserving person, by whatever measure, with a potentially more positive impact on the organization and/or society, is external to markets. For example--honey is not of incredible value in the market. But crop pollination, a by-product of honey production, is extremely valuable--but external to the market.

An argument in defensive of wealth is that opportunity cost will provide incentive for reinvestment, benefiting society. While I don't think it works so simply (trickle-down theory was certainly a disaster, even according to Reagan's own people), it's not so easily dismissed either. It's one of the arguments for property taxes--a tax I vigorously oppose, incidentally--that this ensures that land will be put to good economic use, serving society. It also means you can't peacefully retire unless you can afford to pay (and now some places are starting to include taxing trees).

I'd actually like to see a value-added tax supply the bulk of government revenue. It encourages savings (we have a negative savings rate), spares the poor, allows those who wish to build capital, and opportunity cost will still encourage investment and economic activity. Those with wealth can spend or invest or save with impunity.

Your plan would also be difficult to impossible to enforce in a global economic system. Compensation can too easily appear offshore. But an interesting idea, even if probably impractical (as well as political impossible).

(in reply to Silence8)

Post #: 3

RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/15/2009 8:37:31 PM

Brain

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There is something about this tax situation, or the rich people not paying enough taxes, that really offends me. But it seems it just doesn't bother most people for some reason.

At the very least you would think Obama would not spend any more money on Iraq and Afghanistan unless the Congress voted at the very least to reverse the Bush tax cuts. It seems that's the least the Democrats do.

Maybe by reversing the Bush tax cuts the fiscal situation could improve enough to turn deficits into surpluses. So what's wrong with not owing the Chinese money?

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 4

RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/16/2009 2:59:44 AM

Silence8

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When your economic worth reaches 50+ million US, and you still want more, you're obviously motivated by some desire for abstract status or power, now that your immediate well-being, and that of your children, children's children, etc., is ensured.

What seems to happen is that the desire for abstract status actually wins out over the desire for real power and the real implications of it. What I mean: the rich-powerful just want to enhance their richness, forgetting that money (virtual wealth) is meant for social purposes, represents literally society's indebtedness to you.

I think it's easy to blame corporate greed, and it's there, as are concerns over status, one's position on the Forbes list of billionaires, maintaining legacies, conspicuous consumption, excess, and waste -- but I also think elements of the system push, almost require one to maximize short-term profit at all cost, and I think these elements relate directly to things like the excess of 'hot money' caused by income inequality.

Along these lines, I wonder whether amassing excess virtual wealth actually creates different sorts of bottlenecks in the system. Imagine, you know one industry, and you've conquered it, and now you're filthy rich, you've reinvested all you can into possibly the only industry you really know, and you still have all this excess money. In one case, you lock it up, and it benefits no one, and potentially harms those who could really use it (and fast) due to starvation, illness, and so forth. Or, another case, you throw it into the stock market, and maybe make some personal gains riding bubbles and so forth, but, again, you're not really helping anybody (at least, it's far from obvious). The third case is that you try starting your own charity foundation, or likewise, yet, here, you find that redistributing money in an effective manner is perhaps even harder than amassing it in the first place. Raising the question, then -- can't we design some sort of system where excess accumulation is prevented initially, in the system's internal logic, rather than addressed after the fact?

MM, what do you mean by a value-added tax?

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 5

RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/16/2009 3:22:47 AM

Aileen1968

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From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

Frankly, I've been considering the notion of a salary cap like in baseball, maybe... 50 million US. I'm of the opinion that no one, great or small, is doing anything that great to warrant more than 50 million. Beyond that, money increasingly starts to possess perverse secondary qualities that threaten general well-being.

You've got to be kidding???? What right does anyone have to cap a salary? That is a scary way to think. Do you realize the amount of donations and the charities and programs that people of this financial level support?
You sound more jealous than anything...

_____________________________

(in reply to Silence8)

Post #: 6

RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/16/2009 4:19:45 AM

Silence8

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

Frankly, I've been considering the notion of a salary cap like in baseball, maybe... 50 million US. I'm of the opinion that no one, great or small, is doing anything that great to warrant more than 50 million. Beyond that, money increasingly starts to possess perverse secondary qualities that threaten general well-being.

You've got to be kidding???? What right does anyone have to cap a salary? That is a scary way to think. Do you realize the amount of donations and the charities and programs that people of this financial level support?
You sound more jealous than anything...

If you want to make an argument in one or another direction, go ahead -- make one.

The premise was clear, if you read it before knee-jerking your post -- beyond a certain point one's salary, i.e. one's monetary worth, does not correspond in any positive way with one's social worth. It's a social right, if you must, to create a world more worth living in.

The lame donations and charities argument is already addressed right above your post. And it sucks. A big one.

I'm really not jealous, occasionally outraged, like when I stumbled across that picture of the skeleton-like naked girl dying beside a vulture. That vulture is what you're defending... your so-called 'right'.

(in reply to Aileen1968)

Post #: 7

RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/16/2009 5:39:20 AM

Moonhead

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I'm with Silence, frankly. Nobody actually needs that kind of money, do they? You sometimes get the impression that the neocon monetarists think that doing away with feudalism was a bad idea and that it's an idea whose time has come again.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to Silence8)

Post #: 8

RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/16/2009 7:04:01 AM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I'm with Silence, frankly. Nobody actually needs that kind of money, do they? You sometimes get the impression that the neocon monetarists think that doing away with feudalism was a bad idea and that it's an idea whose time has come again.

Well then exactly how much money do they need? And after they have reached that level, how are you going to redistribute the rest of their wealth? And will this apply to all rich people or just the republicans?

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert

This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 9

RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/16/2009 7:33:45 AM

Moonhead

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All rich people. Obviously.
And taxing the 1% of the population with 80% of the money half their income would do your economy a lot more good than giving them massive tax cuts and expecting them to spend it on American rather than foreign businesses. I'd have thought that was obvious.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to thishereboi)

Post #: 10

RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/16/2009 11:23:56 AM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

All rich people. Obviously.
And taxing the 1% of the population with 80% of the money half their income would do your economy a lot more good than giving them massive tax cuts and expecting them to spend it on American rather than foreign businesses. I'd have thought that was obvious.

Not only is it not obvious, its totally wrong.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 11

RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/16/2009 11:47:30 AM

honeygirl

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Silence8
I'm with Aileen1968 on this. And I've read your post a few times and do not believe you've addressed the "lame" donations and charities argument.

That said, even if you had, in fact, addressed it by writing something that showed you had actually looked at stats on those who give significant funds to philanthropic organizations, I would still think this whole premise sounds like the reaction of some people who are jealous. That is my opinion.

I don't make anywhere near $50 million a year. I know quite a few people who do though and I don't feel like I should limit their salaries -- earned by ethical and moral actions in all the cases where I know details. It's just odd to me that you feel that anyone would believe that they should impose some salary cap mostly on the basis that they don't see the reason another person would want, merit or "properly" use that amount of money.

Obviously, it's your opinion and I really am not interested in changing it so don't feel that there has been any attempt to sway your thoughts on this

quote:

The premise was clear, if you read it before knee-jerking your post -- beyond a certain point one's salary, i.e. one's monetary worth, does not correspond in any positive way with one's social worth. It's a social right, if you must, to create a world more worth living in.

*edited to specify that this was in response to one of Silence8's posts!

< Message edited by honeygirl -- 12/16/2009 11:55:57 AM >

(in reply to Silence8)

Post #: 12

RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/16/2009 11:49:17 AM

mnottertail

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

All rich people. Obviously.
And taxing the 1% of the population with 80% of the money half their income would do your economy a lot more good than giving them massive tax cuts and expecting them to spend it on American rather than foreign businesses. I'd have thought that was obvious.

Not only is it not obvious, its totally wrong.

It is like defending paris, never been done before, so you are blowing smoke up your own ass on this one, wilbur, thats whats obvious.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 13

RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/16/2009 5:43:36 PM

Brain

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It is totally right and I don't give a krud if rich people pay more taxes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

All rich people. Obviously.
And taxing the 1% of the population with 80% of the money half their income would do your economy a lot more good than giving them massive tax cuts and expecting them to spend it on American rather than foreign businesses. I'd have thought that was obvious.

Not only is it not obvious, its totally wrong.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 14

RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/16/2009 10:34:29 PM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

It is totally right and I don't give a krud if rich people pay more taxes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

All rich people. Obviously.
And taxing the 1% of the population with 80% of the money half their income would do your economy a lot more good than giving them massive tax cuts and expecting them to spend it on American rather than foreign businesses. I'd have thought that was obvious.

Not only is it not obvious, its totally wrong.

You will when the economy becomes so bad you wont get your handouts.

(in reply to Brain)

Post #: 15

RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 4:43:26 AM

Silence8

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quote:

ORIGINAL: honeygirl

Silence8
I'm with Aileen1968 on this. And I've read your post a few times and do not believe you've addressed the "lame" donations and charities argument.

That said, even if you had, in fact, addressed it by writing something that showed you had actually looked at stats on those who give significant funds to philanthropic organizations, I would still think this whole premise sounds like the reaction of some people who are jealous. That is my opinion.

I don't make anywhere near $50 million a year. I know quite a few people who do though and I don't feel like I should limit their salaries -- earned by ethical and moral actions in all the cases where I know details. It's just odd to me that you feel that anyone would believe that they should impose some salary cap mostly on the basis that they don't see the reason another person would want, merit or "properly" use that amount of money.

Obviously, it's your opinion and I really am not interested in changing it so don't feel that there has been any attempt to sway your thoughts on this

quote:

The premise was clear, if you read it before knee-jerking your post -- beyond a certain point one's salary, i.e. one's monetary worth, does not correspond in any positive way with one's social worth. It's a social right, if you must, to create a world more worth living in.

*edited to specify that this was in response to one of Silence8's posts!

The jealously card is really lame. I'm disappointed you're clinging to it so. It's really weak sauce. Frankly, I'm not that hard off, I'm young, I don't even work that many hours, I've traveled the world, went to the best schools, etc. etc. etc. [yawn]... if I had more power, I would share the decent life I've led with people who are starving and dying in the street. But that's the point -- I don't make 50 million, or multi-billions... I can't help the world all that much.

The very existence of mass poverty, starvation, and decay are the best arguments against the super-rich. The simple, frank, utter truth -- open your eyes, get your head out of ass, please -- these people have not only not justified their existence but also have contributed very directly to the deprivation of billions of people. Put aside the wars, if you can. Look at the structure of globalization (the IMF, the World Bank, etc.) -- look at all the assassinations of democratically-elected leaders, the propping up of tyrants. Look at the structure of our own housing crisis.

In terms of literature, yes, I'd recommend that you make a trip to your local library and pick up a book entitled "What's Love Got to Do With It: A Critical Look at American Charity", it's probably the most detailed account I've come across about the reality of charity donations. http://www.amazon.com/Whats-Love-Got-Do-Critical/dp/1565846370/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261049170&sr=1-4

Also, note that my original post linked to an article discussing this matter.

(in reply to honeygirl)

Post #: 16

RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 4:52:55 AM

kittinSol

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Spot on.

_____________________________

(in reply to Silence8)

Post #: 17

RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 5:03:03 AM

Silence8

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Joined: 11/2/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

All rich people. Obviously.
And taxing the 1% of the population with 80% of the money half their income would do your economy a lot more good than giving them massive tax cuts and expecting them to spend it on American rather than foreign businesses. I'd have thought that was obvious.

Not only is it not obvious, its totally wrong.

If you want to contribute to the discussion, you should make an argument. That's even more obvious than Moonhead's point.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 18

RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 8:24:02 AM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

It is totally right and I don't give a krud if rich people pay more taxes.

You will when the economy becomes so bad you wont get your handouts.

You know, WD, I work hard, at a good if not million dollar a year job and I pay taxes, too damn many taxes if personal prefrence was known. I also don't depend on any government handouts. I find it one of the greatest lies the right wing spews that anyone who is at all in favor of a progressive government policy is a bum looking for a handout. Some of us would just rather see the taxes we do pay do some good for someone other than the top 5% of wealth holders in this country.

I don't expect this to make any of the righties stop shouting their "Only those on the dole aren't conservative" lie. It's one of their big selling points. But it's a lie and now and then that should be pointed out.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 19

RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 8:28:56 AM

Moonhead

Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
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I'd also be interested to know why willbur thinks that increasing tax revenues would lead to less handouts. No idea where he's got that idea from.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)

Post #: 20

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