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RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 8:30:32 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Rich people are not paying their fair share of taxes. The Bush tax cuts need to be reversed as soon as possible to get the country in a better fiscal position. And if people, I mean rich people, don't want to pay their fair share of taxes they can just leave the country.


What is their "fair share"?

Why is the "fair share" for half the country zero?

Who the fuck are you to say what a fair share of anyone is?

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 8:31:47 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

It has been shown that the disproportionate income distribution towards the top itself causes stagnation in the economy as money turnover rate slows (low income earners spend fast much higher percentage of the income).
Willbeaurdaddy:

It has also been shown that any such stagnation can easily be avoided via monetary and fiscal policy that encourages investment.


Not really. The idea of interest rate manipulation has been the cornerstone of government policies for last 30 years. The policy effectiveness has decreased. The banks rather speculate with "free" money in the international markets, corporations invest in India, China and other places.




Yes really, and I said monetary AND fiscal policy. You know there is a difference, right? You know which one is interest rates, right?

(in reply to Fellow)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 8:33:18 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

40 % of the people in this Country pay no federal taxes. They live from the wages of everyone else. Maybe they are the one who should leave ?


47% in 2008, it will be over 50% for 2009. And thats not of the people in the country, thats the % of wage earners...ie you dont count the unemployed and underaged.

(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/18/2009 12:21:47 AM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

The government should not focus  on rich per se but on the problem of low income of the poor and middle classes.  It has been shown that the disproportionate income distribution towards the top itself causes stagnation in the economy as money turnover rate slows (low income earners spend fast much higher percentage of the income). The labor movement, import tariffs and other instruments have been invented for better spread of income. Today however, it seems, even talking about improving these is taboo in the USA. Things move in cycles. One can find from the history similar situations. In Russia before Red revolution there were rich people and serfs, almost nothing in between. It is hard to see how US government can solve the problem considering what US government is: plutocracy basically. Obviously there will be some kind of cataclysmic solution that will ease the situation. The recent bank failures went to waste; the government policies increased and rescued the wealth of the rich (top 10% owns 80% of all stock) at the epense of everybody else.


I keep having this sneaking suspicion that the economy might actually have improved without the bailouts. One major point of economic stagnation, accumulation would have disappeared.

The point about stagnation I agree with. When the financial crisis first began, I suggested to my relatives over dinner one night that the best way to stimulate the economy would be through raising the minimum wage, and they looked aghast. Yet the logic is simple enough -- you want to increase money supply, as well as turnover, give it to the people who actually need it, the people most likely to spend it. It takes a lot of economics to be able truly to miss the obvious.

(in reply to Fellow)
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RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/18/2009 3:18:00 AM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		The rates they paid before when Bill Clinton was president was a fair share.

I don't think half the country pay zero; back it up with facts/a link please

Who the fuck are you to say what a fair share of anyone is?


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Rich people are not paying their fair share of taxes. The Bush tax cuts need to be reversed as soon as possible to get the country in a better fiscal position. And if people, I mean rich people, don't want to pay their fair share of taxes they can just leave the country.


What is their "fair share"?

Why is the "fair share" for half the country zero?

Who the fuck are you to say what a fair share of anyone is?


(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/18/2009 3:37:26 AM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		Op-Ed: Too Little of a Good Thing - Paul Krugman

The good news is that the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, a k a the Obama stimulus plan, is working just about the way textbook macroeconomics said it would. But that’ s also the bad news — because the same textbook analysis says that the stimulus was far too small given the scale of our economic problems. Unless something changes drastically, we’ re looking at many years of high unemployment.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/02/opinion/02krugman.html?_r=6


"I suggested to my relatives over dinner one night that the best way to stimulate the economy would be through raising the minimum wage, and they looked aghast," you said.

And you were 100% correct! This is the new economic model they need to teach in university, not Adam Smith Invisible Hand bullshit. It is an economic model, I saw a professor in economics interviewed about it on television a few years ago.

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/18/2009 1:03:35 PM   
Fellow


Posts: 1486
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Status: offline 		Here is what some thoughtful reader commented to Krugman's "Keynesian revolution":

"It’s a good thing you prefer banana fungus. That is what will be left after Keynesian economics thoroughly destroys all economic production."

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/18/2009 1:09:36 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy



47% in 2008, it will be over 50% for 2009. And thats not of the people in the country, thats the % of wage earners...ie you dont count the unemployed and underaged.


So by 2009, half the people who work for a living don't make enough to pay federal income tax. Why don't you take a good look at the tax codes and see where that puts them on the earnings scale. If you don't see anything wrong with 50% of the people in this country who work hard making so little money for their work that they don't even make enough to pay federal income taxes, it indicates a lot that is wrong with your world view.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/18/2009 1:55:41 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

The rates they paid before when Bill Clinton was president was a fair share.

I don't think half the country pay zero; back it up with facts/a link please

Who the fuck are you to say what a fair share of anyone is?




I already posted a link to the 47% , go find it if you want it.

I DONT say what a "fair share" is. There is no such thing as a "fair share" when all tax revenues do is pay interest on accumulated debt, and we arent far from that being the case if Obama gets everything passed that he wants.

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/18/2009 1:57:55 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy



47% in 2008, it will be over 50% for 2009. And thats not of the people in the country, thats the % of wage earners...ie you dont count the unemployed and underaged.


So by 2009, half the people who work for a living don't make enough to pay federal income tax. Why don't you take a good look at the tax codes and see where that puts them on the earnings scale. If you don't see anything wrong with 50% of the people in this country who work hard making so little money for their work that they don't even make enough to pay federal income taxes, it indicates a lot that is wrong with your world view.



No, its your world view thats fucked up. People earn what they deserve to earn determined by market. If they want to earn more, become more valuable to your employer. If youre a successful businessman as you claim, you didnt get that way by paying people more than they are worth to your organization.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 12/18/2009 1:58:46 PM >

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
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RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/18/2009 2:02:05 PM   
jackod


Posts: 66
Joined: 5/29/2006
Status: offline 		Such a idiots,taxing working people at this time,exchanging work for money should not be taxed,taxes are voluntary,jack

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/18/2009 3:57:48 PM   
SpinnerofTales


Posts: 1586
Joined: 5/30/2006
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quote:

No, its your world view thats fucked up. People earn what they deserve to earn determined by market. If they want to earn more, become more valuable to your employer. If youre a successful businessman as you claim, you didnt get that way by paying people more than they are worth to your organization.
ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


First, I never claimed to be a business owner. I said I was a working person who pays taxes. As a tax payer, and one who is not getting any handouts from the government other than the standard police an military protection, road and such, I feel I have a right to speak up against those who don't view the capitalism of the nineteeth century as "looking for a handout".

I tend to disagree strongly with your idea that when 50% of the people in a country don't make enough to even make the federal tax rolls, there's nothing wrong. I would say that that is very wrong. But then again, for those against ideas like the minimum wage (which is a joke when you add up what it comes to), I can see that it might appear to be the answer. Of course, without decent opportunities for education, decent nutrition, decent medical care and any real hope of improvement in one's life, it does become a bit more difficult.

Oh..and before you point out the handful of people who do overcome these odds, as is standard, let me point out to you. A very small number of people make a very nice living playing professional football. It doesn't really hold up to make your policies based on "well, if they want a decent life, why don't they just practice punting harder?".

The term is "a level playing field". We don't have one. Conservatives don't want one. Progressives do. That's the basic difference between us.


(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/18/2009 4:21:00 PM   
submittous


Posts: 345
Joined: 6/12/2004
Status: offline 		We are living through the fastest transfer of wealth in the history of man..... billions and trillions of dollars moving from the poor, middle class and in the public trust moving to the top 1 %. You can say it's ok and what god intends but the only similar run up in US history was right up to the Depression.

The real danger in my mind isn't the US becoming a third world country of super rich and poor.... that is happening. The danger is the potential for revolt by the growing underclass.

_____________________________

"If you are lucky enough to find a way of life you love, you have to find the courage to live it." John Irving

(in reply to Hardbutt)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/18/2009 4:23:17 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

First, I never claimed to be a business owner.


I must have misinterpreted something...Im glad youre not, because youre head is so loose from spinning you couldnt make a go of one.

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/18/2009 4:25:55 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		All I know is when Clinton was president people were doing okay and the budget was in surplus annually and the cumulative deficit was declining before George W. Bush totally blew a hole in it.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/18/2009 4:34:11 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

All I know is when Clinton was president people were doing okay and the budget was in surplus annually and the cumulative deficit was declining before George W. Bush totally blew a hole in it.


No, it wasnt in surplus annually under Clinton, in fact there was never a budget surplus. Thats been debunked already. The deficit didnt decline in a single year he was in office.

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/18/2009 4:40:08 PM   
UniqueRaven


Posts: 1237
Joined: 9/30/2009
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		i'm not interested in joining in the argument, just want to provide some information.

My ex Master was a senior level Wall Street executive.

He paid 62% of his income in taxes.  That is what he actually paid, after deductions, etc., in Federal, State, and Local taxes.

He personally funded and continues to fund a charter school (ongoing) for over 300 underprivileged children who otherwise do not have access to a quality education.

He contributes on an annual basis a significant amount of money towards international world hunger organizations.

He contributed significantly to the hurricane Katrina relief effort, via the Red Cross and other charitable organizations.

He significantly supports several local area sporting organizations that focus on inner-city youth.

He contributes to many large philanthropic and intellectual organizations (not political) that i will not name specifically here out of respect for his privacy.

Privately, he funds a research company that is creating new technology for human-powered farming equipment for impoverished nations that can aerate the most soil and produce the greatest density of food with as little water as possible.  He has also invested in inner-city developments, housing projects, a construction company, and a winery, just for fun.  These investments have created jobs for hundreds of people.

i have met, and know, many, many people just like him.  The wealthy are not all ogres rolling in piles of money, lighting cigars with $100 bills and evicting widows and orphans.  They are people, just like us all, doing their best in life.  Yes, there are some bad apples, but you find those in every financial class.  Making blanket statements that a financial class doesn't "deserve" what they earn is misguided, and making further blanket statements that those individuals somehow are selfish and hoarding money from the rest of the economy is just even more misguided.

Just some info,
julie

(in reply to Brain)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/18/2009 4:49:19 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven


He paid 62% of his income in taxes.  That is what he actually paid, after deductions, etc., in Federal, State, and Local taxes.




But its not his fair share...ask Brain.

Just think if Social Security payroll tax had been uncapped he could have paid 67+%. Maybe that would have been his fair share. Oh..and if he was a homeowner he would have paid another few percent. Maybe that would have been a fair share.

(in reply to UniqueRaven)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/18/2009 5:01:51 PM   
UniqueRaven


Posts: 1237
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From: Austin, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven


He paid 62% of his income in taxes.  That is what he actually paid, after deductions, etc., in Federal, State, and Local taxes.





But its not his fair share...ask Brain.

Just think if Social Security payroll tax had been uncapped he could have paid 67+%. Maybe that would have been his fair share. Oh..and if he was a homeowner he would have paid another few percent. Maybe that would have been a fair share.


Yes.  One thing the media does NOT do, when they're feeding the frenzy of hysteria over the Wall Street bonuses, is mention how much of those bonuses actually go to taxes.  It's a big number. 

The media also neglects to mention how much money these men and women personally inject back into the economy, and towards the greater good.  The individuals on Wall Street know that money is a tool that is made to be invested - not to just sit around in a giant pile like Scrooge McDuck.  And those investments contribute significantly back to Main Street.

But go ahead, tax more money away into the giant general government coffer.  Personally, i'd rather know that my money went directly to employ someone else, or educate a child, or feed a hungry family, vs. trusting a government organization to "distribute it fairly."  But that's just me.

julie



(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/18/2009 6:51:49 PM   
SpinnerofTales


Posts: 1586
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

First, I never claimed to be a business owner.


I must have misinterpreted something...Im glad youre not, because youre head is so loose from spinning you couldnt make a go of one.


How nice...you make a mistake, misquote me and turn it into an excuse for a personal insult. How....typical of you.


(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 60
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