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RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 8:36:53 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		One thing is growing faster than that pace - the deficit. Almost on an equal pace - unemployment in the private sector.

Too much money and investment on the sidelines. It's not going to get in play when the tax rate rises. California is proving that more taxes equal less revenue. You're seeing the same thing played out on a national level.

It�s not just California. Tax revenue is falling everywhere.State income-tax revenue fell 26% in the first four months of 2009 compared to the same period last year, according to a survey of states by the nonprofit Nelson A. Rockefeller Institute of Government.The report, conducted by the public-policy research arm of the State University of New York, is one of the most up-to-date measures of how deep the recession is digging into Americans� wallets and, consequently, state coffers.States are required by law to balance the budget, so lower tax revenues will translate in service cuts, rather than red ink. Already states such as Kansas are slowing the payment of income-tax refunds and delaying payments to local school districts, according to the report.This is a point I have highlighted in the past: when state taxes fall, services get cut. And the fact that states are constrained unlike the U.S. government because they have no printing presses is one reason I said in January that the President�s stimulus package was not going to get it done. Time will tell whether U.S. government largesse is countered by state and local government cutbacks. And it is local government services you probably care most about: schools, police, garbage collection, swimming pools, libraries.

Meanwhile: More Americans than anticipated filed first-time claims for unemployment benefits last week, a reminder that the labor market will take time to strengthen and may weigh on the economic recovery. Initial jobless claims rose by 7,000 to 480,000 in the week ended Dec. 12, from a revised 473,000 the prior week, Labor Department figures showed today in Washington. The number of people receiving unemployment insurance was little changed in the prior week, while those getting extended payments increased.

Keep taxing - keep money out of the economy. Private money anyway, as the Fed prints more, adds more bureaucrats and bureaucracy. How's that working?

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 11:07:24 AM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


quote:

Keep taxing - keep money out of the economy. Private money anyway, as the Fed prints more, adds more bureaucrats and bureaucracy. How's that working?


About as well as lowering the taxes on the top 5% worked for the country during the last administration.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 11:38:07 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Keep taxing - keep money out of the economy. Private money anyway, as the Fed prints more, adds more bureaucrats and bureaucracy. How's that working?

About as well as lowering the taxes on the top 5% worked for the country during the last administration.


A poor response even from you.

When those tax cuts were put in place they worked for their intended purpose. Noticeably lacking in your response is an explanation how and why the higher taxes implemented in CA since January 1, 2009 have produced LESS tax revenue.

Why no response or consideration to the reality documented in my post? There is a current day example of higher taxes producing LESS tax revenue and causing MORE cuts to services.

However, I'll use the 'ultra conservative' NY TIMES source as a response to the unsubstantiated representation that tax revenues went down.

On Wednesday, White House officials plan to announce that the deficit for the 2005 fiscal year, which ends in September, will be far smaller than the $427 billion they estimated in February.

Mr. Bush plans to hail the improvement at a cabinet meeting and to cite it as validation of his argument that tax cuts would stimulate the economy and ultimately help pay for themselves.

Based on revenue and spending data through June, the budget deficit for the first nine months of the fiscal year was $251 billion, $76 billion lower than the $327 billion gap recorded at the corresponding point a year earlier.

The Congressional Budget Office estimated last week that the deficit for the full fiscal year, which reached $412 billion in 2004, could be "significantly less than $350 billion, perhaps below $325 billion." The big surprise has been in tax revenue, which is running nearly 15 percent higher than in 2004. Corporate tax revenue has soared about 40 percent, after languishing for four years, and individual tax revenue is up as well.

Ah, the "good old days". When a $350 Billion was the annual deficit, compared to now. The White House projects a record $1.5 trillion dollars deficit this year alone, and a 5-year deficit total of $4.97 trillion."

As as side-bar; note how President Bush was referenced in the article from 2005 as "Mr. Bush". Compare that to today's NY Times: The last time President Obama traveled to Copenhagen, he was unable to persuade the International Olympic Committee to award the Summer Games of 2016 to Chicago. And he came back from that 20-hour mission in October empty-handed.

'Thoughtcrime is a dreadful thing, old man,' he said sententiously. 'It's insidious. It can get hold of you without your even knowing it. Do you know how it got hold of me? In my sleep! Yes, that's a fact. There I was, working away, trying to do my bit -- never knew I had any bad stuff in my mind at all. And then I started talking in my sleep. Do you know what they heard me saying?'

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RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 12:36:01 PM   
Fellow


Posts: 1486
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		The government should not focus  on rich per se but on the problem of low income of the poor and middle classes.  It has been shown that the disproportionate income distribution towards the top itself causes stagnation in the economy as money turnover rate slows (low income earners spend fast much higher percentage of the income). The labor movement, import tariffs and other instruments have been invented for better spread of income. Today however, it seems, even talking about improving these is taboo in the USA. Things move in cycles. One can find from the history similar situations. In Russia before Red revolution there were rich people and serfs, almost nothing in between. It is hard to see how US government can solve the problem considering what US government is: plutocracy basically. Obviously there will be some kind of cataclysmic solution that will ease the situation. The recent bank failures went to waste; the government policies increased and rescued the wealth of the rich (top 10% owns 80% of all stock) at the epense of everybody else.

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 12:42:00 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

It's a social right, if you must, to create a world more worth living in.



There's no such right...any more than you have the right to a life.....though I would agree that in a purely pragmatic sense a social conscience is beneficial.

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RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 12:44:36 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

It's a social right, if you must, to create a world more worth living in.



There's no such right...any more than you have the right to a life.....though I would agree that in a purely pragmatic sense a social conscience is beneficial.

It certainly beats the alternative.

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RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 12:49:45 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy




It is totally right and I don't give a krud if rich people pay more taxes.


You will when the economy becomes so bad you wont get your handouts.


You know, WD, I work hard, at a good if not million dollar a year job and I pay taxes, too damn many taxes if personal prefrence was known. I also don't depend on any government handouts. I find it one of the greatest lies the right wing spews that anyone who is at all in favor of a progressive government policy is a bum looking for a handout. Some of us would just rather see the taxes we do pay do some good for someone other than the top 5% of wealth holders in this country.

I don't expect this to make any of the righties stop shouting their "Only those on the dole aren't conservative" lie. It's one of their big selling points. But it's a lie and now and then that should be pointed out.



Strawman. Conservatives (except wingnuts) dont call progressives "bums" looking for a handout. There are plenty of middle class progressives looking for handouts too. The top 5% wealth holders do far more good in creating jobs and opportunity for the less wealthy than their tax money could ever do.

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RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 12:50:51 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I'd also be interested to know why willbur thinks that increasing tax revenues would lead to less handouts. No idea where he's got that idea from.


And I have no idea where you think I said that.

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RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 12:52:05 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

One thing is growing faster than that pace - the deficit. Almost on an equal pace - unemployment in the private sector.




another thing growing faster is jobs and wages in the public sector. Jobs that create absolutely nothing.


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RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 12:56:42 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

It has been shown that the disproportionate income distribution towards the top itself causes stagnation in the economy as money turnover rate slows (low income earners spend fast much higher percentage of the income).


It has also been shown that any such stagnation can easily be avoided via monetary and fiscal policy that encourages investment.

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RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 12:57:46 PM   
Moonhead


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Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain


It is totally right and I don't give a krud if rich people pay more taxes.


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

All rich people. Obviously.
And taxing the 1% of the population with 80% of the money half their income would do your economy a lot more good than giving them massive tax cuts and expecting them to spend it on American rather than foreign businesses. I'd have thought that was obvious.


Not only is it not obvious, its totally wrong.




You will when the economy becomes so bad you wont get your handouts.

You said it here, old boy. Any more questions?

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 12:59:25 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
One thing is growing faster than that pace - the deficit. Almost on an equal pace - unemployment in the private sector.

another thing growing faster is jobs and wages in the public sector. Jobs that create absolutely nothing.
I have to disagree with you. Public sector jobs to create one thing - votes.

The result you point to is based upon necessity. Who else would cast a vote for an incumbent?

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 1:04:47 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
One thing is growing faster than that pace - the deficit. Almost on an equal pace - unemployment in the private sector.

another thing growing faster is jobs and wages in the public sector. Jobs that create absolutely nothing.
I have to disagree with you. Public sector jobs to create one thing - votes.

The result you point to is based upon necessity. Who else would cast a vote for an incumbent?



I think you are actually agreeing, since the votes that public sector jobs create go toward further deterioration of the economy...ie the ultimte result isnt creation, its destruction.

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RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 1:21:58 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
One thing is growing faster than that pace - the deficit. Almost on an equal pace - unemployment in the private sector.

another thing growing faster is jobs and wages in the public sector. Jobs that create absolutely nothing.
I have to disagree with you. Public sector jobs to create one thing - votes.

The result you point to is based upon necessity. Who else would cast a vote for an incumbent?

I think you are actually agreeing, since the votes that public sector jobs create go toward further deterioration of the economy...ie the ultimte result isnt creation, its destruction.


I was hoping you would take it as not only agreeing with you, but adding another point, as you say, of "deterioration of the economy". Sorry if that intent wasn't clear.

Damn difficult to express voice inflection in the written word no matter what font you use typing!

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RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 2:01:30 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		Rich people are not paying their fair share of taxes. The Bush tax cuts need to be reversed as soon as possible to get the country in a better fiscal position. And if people, I mean rich people, don't want to pay their fair share of taxes they can just leave the country.

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RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 2:23:04 PM   
Fellow


Posts: 1486
Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fellow

It has been shown that the disproportionate income distribution towards the top itself causes stagnation in the economy as money turnover rate slows (low income earners spend fast much higher percentage of the income).
Willbeaurdaddy:

It has also been shown that any such stagnation can easily be avoided via monetary and fiscal policy that encourages investment.


Not really. The idea of interest rate manipulation has been the cornerstone of government policies for last 30 years. The policy effectiveness has decreased. The banks rather speculate with "free" money in the international markets, corporations invest in India, China and other places.


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RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 6:15:14 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		40 % of the people in this Country pay no federal taxes. They live from the wages of everyone else. Maybe they are the one who should leave ?

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 6:23:19 PM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

40 % of the people in this Country pay no federal taxes. They live from the wages of everyone else. Maybe they are the one who should leave ?

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Go take a look at how little you have to make to pay no federal taxes. Then take a moment to wonder why 40% of the people make that little. Maybe you can come up better idea than evicting the poor.


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RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 7:35:51 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Servant that is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard in my entire life.
that you can allow 40 % of  your population fall beneath that barrier income wise is a disgrace and you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourselves.
That you are wanting them to leave is suicide

< Message edited by Lucylastic -- 12/17/2009 7:36:20 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: One of Few Things Growing as Fast as Health Care Co... - 12/17/2009 7:43:17 PM   
Hardbutt


Posts: 78
Joined: 3/16/2005
Status: offline 		Suckers falling for a habitual troll....

Brian does not have a dog in this fight, he is NOT a US citizen!

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