RE: reaction to comments - gender bias (Full Version)

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sissyshoefetish -> RE: reaction to comments - gender bias (12/23/2009 7:33:46 PM)


quote:



When you put things up on the forums this is not a cozy safe place. There are plenty of safe spaces on the Internet. They are needed but this isn't one of them. I truly do not believe my questioning that was out of line. It doesn't sound healthy. It's entirely possible that I'm wrong and there are others factors. In which case I expect the OP to come back and, without insults as I did not insult him, and inform me of them. Then I will politely go "Oh, ok, awesome." Sometimes things need to be questioned, I've seen that on the forums more than once.

As for you thinking I'm feeding his kink, again I completely disagree. But if I'm feeding his kink by questioning if he is possibly trying to get his kink scratched without calling it manipulative or any other "loaded" terms... ya know I can live with that entirely comfortably.


Thanks to making your point clear.
No you were not out of line in my view. i wanted questions and discussion and got that. And it helped. Others were harsher, some were gentler but no-one was offensive.
May i add that just because the forums are not a cozy safe place does not mean we are justfied in maintaining that situation or in not acting to keep it respectful.
i did feel a little "got at" when you suggested i should come back without insults as if it were to be assumed i would otherwise be abusive. Why mention it unless you thought it likely and why think it likely when it has not happened previously?

i remain curious about the unhealthy relationship comment. i would come back with more detail but it would help if you could elaborate first.

i remain grateful for Lally2's open minded and sympathetic appraoch - and for defending me :-)





sissyshoefetish -> RE: reaction to comments - gender bias (12/23/2009 7:37:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Having a relationship with zero communication isn't healthy. Neither is letting someone gouge out your eyes. Maybe this is a judgment on my part, if so I'll stand by it.


i quite agree, but i did not say i was in a relationship with zero communication (can such a thing actually exist?); i said i was being ignored. its something of a punishment . Am i right in thinking that you saw more in my comment than i specifically expressed and so considered my relationship sounded unhealthy, or was it that you fetl being ignored at all was unhealthy?




sissyshoefetish -> RE: reaction to comments - gender bias (12/23/2009 7:47:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

i agree wholeheartedly that this thread is a bit questionable, but i still think this guy has alot going on and who knows how fragile he is or how much 'attack' he can handle. he's new here and doesnt know how brutal it can get at times [:)]




i llike your empathic approach. i do have a lot going on and you are right - no-one knows if i am at some fragile point and do not know what i can handle. i am new here but not new to forums. it intrigues me how the lack of non verbal (or non-typed) communication leads people to misunderstand. Simple comments are often picked up on and assumptions made, then replies based on those assumptions. There are no other signs to signal intent -signs that you woudl get in a face to face talk.

i am interested that you find the thread questionable and i think this is because there was suspicion i might simply be seeking to feed my fetish rather than discuss anything. i do hope that suspicion is gone.





sissyshoefetish -> RE: reaction to comments - gender bias (12/23/2009 7:53:32 PM)


quote:



if i ask you if you have anything to say and you don't answer, you've answered in effect

a lack of communication is communicating they have nothing to say, and/or they don't think your worth talking too

we communicate on many different levels


quote:


I don't regard that as communication in the slightest. As I said, it's a lack of communication that implies something. It could also mean I'm dead and therefore unable to communicate.


not wishing to engage with this too much, i would say that that the act of ignoring someone does communicate that fact,and as you say it implies something only and it requires context to give relevance; the context being what the people experiencing the non communication understand to be happening.




sissyshoefetish -> RE: reaction to comments - gender bias (12/23/2009 8:12:06 PM)


quote:



I think I understand what you mean better now. So you would not agree with something that you don't agree with, but you simply wouldn't speak at all? I still find that questionable and somewhat irksome - if I'm wrong I want people to correct me. It's the only way I'm going to learn and improve myself but it's much less offensive.


No, i said i would not dispute or complain - i can still reply without doing those.

quote:


Athough how is being polite meek? I expect politeness from dominants and masters after all.

i said meek and polite not that one was the same as the other. Politeness however while a normal part of my persona is unfortunatley seen as weakness by some in todays society. i have allowed myself then to show politeness where people do not often do so. For example, i often hold doors open for people who pass through them after me, but now at times when it is a woman that is there, i do so and allow myself to imagine this as a submissive act, not jst a polite one. i make no outward sign of that, not do i choose not to hold a door if the person doesn't then fit with my fantasy.
Another example is on crowded trains or in supermarkets. Most people barge their way through rudely, but at times i will allow myself to let one or more women pass before me. In some cases when it is a woman who is barging her way, i do this and consider it as me being taken advantage of by her.
No harm is done by these things - they are just in my mind.


quote:


That doesn't exactly sound like a healthy relationship.

The way you put it makes it sound like she is ignoring you even though you need to ask her something. Why can't you ask her and why is she ignoring you? I don't regard it as healthy for one person to be ignoring the needs of another. Particularly if you are still learning your way, I believe you need instruction and attention.

Granted it's your relationship but that's my opinion. [:)]


Yes i think you are right in some ways. I do believe i need instruction but Her attention is a gift to give or deny. Is it healthy? I am not sure but i hadn't felt it to be unhealthy before you suggested it and do not now.
i certainly would like to ask Her a few things but i will wait for Her to decide if i can.
As for why i can't ask and why She is ignoring me, i won't tell you. i regret that this is because you are content to be complicit in these forums not being "safe space" rather than being an agent for greater understanding, and i feel that you will not be gentle with things i may reveal. i am sorry if that bothers you ( i suspect it won't) but the impression you have given me does not at this point lead me to trust you.



sissyshoefetish -> RE: reaction to comments - gender bias (12/23/2009 8:17:40 PM)

Well i have tried to answer everyone that heloed with my question and now i see i have left a great trail of comments.

i consider the original query well answered and my conclusion is that i was wrong about my own bias.
i have found here that i take all posts on their own merits and do not kowtow on teh basis of gender.
i have also found that my desire to submit would be formed on the basis of my perception of the person involved.
Finaly i have found out quite a lot about the culture of these forums.



Aswad -> RE: reaction to comments - gender bias (12/25/2009 12:56:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Respect a woman or a man because they have earned it, not through an accident of birth.


That's precisely what I've been saying on the Gorean boards, as well. Haven't been on CM for a while, but last I looked, some had apparently arrived at the same conclusion, whether due to that input or not. Meritocracy is the highest form of fairness or justice, as well as respect for individual humans, and it dictates that gender not be a factor in judging a person (though the behaviors and qualities based on which one does judge a person may well derive from gender or a cultural element that is gender specific, cf. Deborah Tannen on gynoculture and androculture). Admitting accident of birth as a factor in judging people, one might as well reintroduce aristocracy, monarchy,"sins of the father" and all that.

In fact, it is harmful to women to confer privileges and benefits solely based on this accident of birth. There are more than a few cases I know where people have been afforded such on the basis of gender (cf. any number of trials), or where it has been argued that such be done (cf. the critisism Oprah was subject to when she didn't back Hillary). As I know a lot of very competent women that I respect a lot on their own merits, I find it distasteful to see incompetent ones get ahead on account of their gender, causing the competent ones I know to be viewed by many of my peers with the same disrespect as the incompetent ones. Misogyny is bad enough without catering to it by fueling the prejudices.

Normalizing the notion of humans, as opposed to men and women, the notion of meritocracy, is something that relies on requiring people to earn their place. Feminism opened the door. I am very happy about that. It makes it possible for each individual woman to earn the highest place she can reach to, just as men have been able to do for ages. If they are given those places without earning them, however, that just devalues those places, making the situation no different than having the door closed in the first place, and causing a loss of respect for those who are worthy of it, which is anyone who decides to earn it.

The women who have held the respect of men throughout the ages haven't had it handed to them, even in those times and places where men and women were on more equal footing than premodern Europe; they'd earned that respect, and anyone who does so now, is paving the way for others to follow and setting an example, establishing a role model. Boys growing up have plenty of role models that have gone far, accomplished much, or commanded great respect. If girls are to grow up daring to dream of reaching for the stars, without illusions of free lunches, they too need role models that have earned a place of high esteem. Else we will end up with a spoiled, overprivileged group that gets ahead at the expense of a highly competitive and aggressive group that is used to judging based on effort and net accomplishments. Any time in history that has been the case, the latter has pounded the former into the ground and stomped on it. That makes for hot stories, but a rather disappointing and distasteful reality. From that perspective, I certainly don't want to see such a backlash occur. Neither, one assumes, would a female supremacist like sissyshoefetish.

Glad to see so many voices echo the sentiment that gender supremacy is disrespectful (and ultimately self-defeating).

Health,
al-Aswad.



wisdomtogive -> RE: reaction to comments - gender bias (12/25/2009 5:54:35 AM)

HI OP

I really can't tell you what you should do or not. I can tell you how I handle things the majority of the time. One is I have never felt man or woman should be treated differently in a debate or on public forums. In regards to people posting, some posters I find to be [sm=AttentionWhore.gif]and I have no need to feed their addiction. I seldom will post on their threads to them, personally but occasionally to another poster's comment. I do not deal well with attention whores who spew a lot of dead air in voicing their comments. They seek to get people rile up on purpose, and they do it very well. They would have too, since it is a good part of their make-up. My being on these boards for maybe a little over 2 years, under a variety of names, one thing I noticed [sm=axe.gif]trying to pound something into an 'attention whores' mind is useless drill and energy. The good thing is they burn themselves out after people stop paying attention to them and they go somewhere, perhaps to attention whore land..who knows.

I believe in apologizing if I am wrong. it just my basic personality. If I insulted someone anywhere, I will apologize. I might tell them I still fill the way I do about a topic, but I should not have made it demeaning to them.

Besides the gender element, anyone who claims to be a Dominant is not looked upon as different then a submissive, by me.  I have witness some 'doms', who express themselves on here and other places, to be very full of themselves, and in my eyes they come off as a joke. Labels and titles mean squat to me. If they act like an attention whore, or wanting special attention because they profess to be a Dom, so be it. In my eyes from what they write, they negate any intelligence.

My time is precious, and to allocate any of it to these types of personas is taking away from serving Sir, my career and so forth. This is something that i need to always keep in forefront.



AquaticSub -> RE: reaction to comments - gender bias (12/25/2009 8:21:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sissyshoefetish


No, i said i would not dispute or complain - i can still reply without doing those.


I suspect it's just an issue of semantics here. To me, disputing is often part of correcting and can be done with great respect and politeness.

quote:


i said meek and polite not that one was the same as the other. Politeness however while a normal part of my persona is unfortunatley seen as weakness by some in todays society. i have allowed myself then to show politeness where people do not often do so. For example, i often hold doors open for people who pass through them after me, but now at times when it is a woman that is there, i do so and allow myself to imagine this as a submissive act, not jst a polite one. i make no outward sign of that, not do i choose not to hold a door if the person doesn't then fit with my fantasy.

Perhaps it's because I live in the South but I hold doors and have doors held for me by strangers multiple times a day when I'm out and about. And not to be rude, but I'd regard your imagining her as part of your fantasy as a bit questionable even though she'll likely never find out.
quote:


Another example is on crowded trains or in supermarkets. Most people barge their way through rudely, but at times i will allow myself to let one or more women pass before me. In some cases when it is a woman who is barging her way, i do this and consider it as me being taken advantage of by her.
No harm is done by these things - they are just in my mind.

I can't say I've had the experience of most people barging their way through on trains or in the supermarkets. There are rude people of course but I've found most people to be reasonable polite, friendly and helpful.
quote:




Yes i think you are right in some ways. I do believe i need instruction but Her attention is a gift to give or deny. Is it healthy? I am not sure but i hadn't felt it to be unhealthy before you suggested it and do not now.
i certainly would like to ask Her a few things but i will wait for Her to decide if i can.
As for why i can't ask and why She is ignoring me, i won't tell you. i regret that this is because you are content to be complicit in these forums not being "safe space" rather than being an agent for greater understanding, and i feel that you will not be gentle with things i may reveal. i am sorry if that bothers you ( i suspect it won't) but the impression you have given me does not at this point lead me to trust you.


You're right - you not telling me don't bother me nor am I bothered by the fact that you don't trust me. I'm a random person on the Internet, you have no reason to trust me.

I do think you are misunderstanding what I mean by safe space and non-safe space though. In a safe space, one can not question people for their own good because it's a safe place for them to vent and get things off their chest. These are valuable spaces that are truly needed. However spaces where the posters will not be wrapped up in wool are also required. The collarme forums are part of the latter. That doesn't mean that I would actively try to hurt anyone or step on anyone's feelings. That isn't my nature but of course you don't know that nor I do expect you to. Simply that I won't refrain from making a comment that I think they may be in an unhealthy situation simply because it might twist someone's panties.



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