RE: Is your D/s disposition mostly rooted in you Id, your Ego or your Super-Ego?

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RE: Is your D/s disposition mostly rooted in you Id, yo... - 12/31/2009 8:25:17 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Its a little counter-intuitive to think that anyone's sex drive would be commanded by the super-ego.

No, but it can certainly shape and inform the relationships that we form around the BDSM framework.

How does it inform? Do you mean the way we construct the commonly accepted principles of BDSM?

More Panda! More! My brain is hungry for knowledge. :-)

- LA

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RE: Is your D/s disposition mostly rooted in you Id, yo... - 12/31/2009 8:27:23 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

(Psychology) a natural or acquired tendency, inclination, or habit in a person or thing

This would most likely be the appropriate interpretation of disposition. The wording of the question itself is surely not flawless, but to date, I think many sort of got where I was coming from. If you want to propose a better statement, I'm all ears... err eyes.

- LA

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Post #: 42

RE: Is your D/s disposition mostly rooted in you Id, yo... - 12/31/2009 8:28:37 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

~FR to the OP:

I would like to thank you for not making this an either / or kind of question. It's refreshing to see the word "mostly" in the title.

You are welcome. I try hard (not that I'm always successful) at trying to see the shades of grey rather than the extremes of black and white.

- LA

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Post #: 43

RE: Is your D/s disposition mostly rooted in you Id, yo... - 12/31/2009 8:54:20 PM

xssve

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Perhaps you should rephrase the question, you said "post of the super-ego (a few posts up)", and I think I only mentioned Three aspects of it; that it's an abstract symbolic construct, and that "most peoples sex drive is pretty tied up in their superego identity", and it's usefulness as a marketing tool due to this - which thing were you interested in?

Assuming it's the sex drive thing, sex is basically a social behavior, and particularly when extended families were involved as they have been throughout most of human history, as well as inter-familial alliances, inheritance, etc., at stake, there is a long history of social controls over sexual behavior due to the reproductive politics - the whole Virgin/Whore dichotomy, very deeply entrenched value systems both oral and literate that play a significant role in superego conditioning.

We've been fucking around with the Virgin/Whore thing for a while now, and it's mostly depreciated, but now we're wrestling with all these gender identity issues, all of which directly concern sexuality and all of which involve superego identity constructs, projection and deviance from these constructs - people can get very hostile over this it threatens to overturn their entire sense of identity of who they are - it's a withdrawal of their sense of validation, and they're used to being the validators.

Hence, it's a "conspiracy", and "attack", a "threat", to certain traditional elements of society, it threatens their whole network of social controls and validation schemes, based on "good girls" and "bad girls", sexual roles, divisions of labor, status hierarchies, etc. which does threaten both their economic and social status, at least theoretically, there's a great deal of cognitive dissonance involved. It was bad enough when women wanted to be like men, now men want to be like women, their entire binary gender paradigm of reality is being turned upside down.

Their idealized superego constructs are threatening to be rendered obsolete, it's why atavistic social theories are suddenly becoming attractive, if they happen to promise a return to the "golden age", a re-validation of their confused superegos.

There's more, but superego is definitely involved - damn near every profile in here, dom sub, or switch describes some ideal in hopes of finding somebody who shares it, including mine, we all have some ideal of who we are, and we want someone to share it with, it's human nature.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 44

RE: Is your D/s disposition mostly rooted in you Id, yo... - 12/31/2009 9:01:29 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

Its a little counter-intuitive to think that anyone's sex drive would be commanded by the super-ego.

No, but it can certainly shape and inform the relationships that we form around the BDSM framework.

How does it inform? Do you mean the way we construct the commonly accepted principles of BDSM?

More Panda! More! My brain is hungry for knowledge. :-)

- LA

Well, my thought on the matter is this - first of all; in my case, every romantic relationship is erected upon the foundation, and built around the framework, of my submission to my partner. That, as I said earlier, is the primal urge that dictates how I relate to a woman that I love.

But the trouble with the id is, it's all about that instant-gratification thang. The id is a 3-year old child; whatever it wants, it wants right now, and fuck the consequences. The super-ego stands in constant opposition to the id - the super-ego is the 3-year old's father, insisting that the impulsive little bastard act in a responsible, appropriate manner. If you let the id direct your actions, you behave in ways that are destructive to relationships - the id, with it's insistence upon immediate gratification of every desire, would act in constant disregard for the responsibilities and obligations that people in relationships have to one another. So, it's the super ego that controls the id, allowing it to follow the path it needs to follow to fulfillment, but ensuring that it do so in a responsible manner.

Actually, that's a gross oversimplification of the way the process works, because in reality it's the ego that acts as the intermediary between the id and the super-ego. It's the ego that actually does the regulating. The super-ego simply advises. You could say the id demands, the super-ego advises, and the ego listens, decides, and directs. But for the sake of simplicity, I think the explanation works pretty well to summarize what I meant.

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Post #: 45

RE: Is your D/s disposition mostly rooted in you Id, yo... - 12/31/2009 11:59:20 PM

Justme696

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~fr

Doesn't Freuds "structure" mean we all have ALL 3?
We can't chose which one, we have all 3 in us. If you chose 1, you don't have a structure. They are connected, linked.

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Post #: 46

RE: Is your D/s disposition mostly rooted in you Id, yo... - 1/1/2010 12:57:30 AM

Dominasola

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

~fr

Doesn't Freuds "structure" mean we all have ALL 3?
We can't chose which one, we have all 3 in us. If you chose 1, you don't have a structure. They are connected, linked.

Freud himself didn't believe that everyone could achieve a Super-Ego, though. Only those who were able to overcome the Oedipus Complex. And women couldn't achieve it at all. But, shh...

(in reply to Justme696)

Post #: 47

RE: Is your D/s disposition mostly rooted in you Id, yo... - 1/1/2010 1:31:06 AM

stella41b

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Hmm interesting..

Only the id, ego and super-ego was revised by Dr Eric Berne into his (correspondingly) Child, Adult and Parent ego states for Transactional Analysis which I have myself have revised further as Experience, Self and Character in my own theory of universal theatre. I now call it DTA - Dramatic Transactional Analysis.

You see to me living is nothing more than a preoccupation with relationships - with yourself, with other people, with inanimate objects, with abstract concepts, with the world in general. Relationships happen in cycles and are cyclical in nature. Your relationship with your place of work is cyclical, you turn up at the office in the morning, you work through the day, you go home in the afternoon whenever you can knock off and you expect a salary every month. Same too with your partner, right down to the jiggy jiggy and kinky stuff, it's all cyclical.

But all relationships require both language and communication. Therefore we have:

quote:

Some people create pressure on others (and others are put under such pressure) to communicate in ways which suits their own style of communication. Another element of communication is domination and submission, control and power, which occurs to some degree in most transactions between people. In fact some people seek out such communication styles and even form intimate relationships on the basis of such transactions and relationship cycles.

This is from my book 'You Me Them'..

Therefore to me your 'D/s disposition' is found in all three ego states because it's part of who you really are. It doesn't matter whether this was something natural which always existed within you or developed as a result of an experience in the past - it's still a part of you.

Now let's see how this works by way of an example. Let's take spanking for example. You have a male submissive who into spanking. He likes to be spanked. This need often manifests itself when he's insecure, or in a stressful situation and there are a lot of guys who in this situation will be looking for Madame Whiplash or Miss Parker Stern HeadMistress. This is quite normal, when we feel insecure or stressed we tend to reach out for the familiar even if it means going back to past or redundant relationship cycles. This is also why a straightforward bare bottom spanking doesn't always cut it for Mr Spanko, as he often needs to be taken back to the past (back into his Experience ego state or id) and given some traditional domestic discipline or a schoolroom scene, where he can go back into Character (the super-ego) as the naughty little boy who is being dealt with, and this hits the button and fulfils that need for discipline and gives him reassurance and self-confidence. Quite a few sissy maids go through a similar sort of process but in a different way.

Similarly as a dominant or submissive you slip into Character (super-ego) for scenes and play but the need comes from your Experience (id) and is very much related to Self (ego). It's all part of you, and all the three ego states are linked to each other to form a whole.

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Post #: 48

RE: Is your D/s disposition mostly rooted in you Id, yo... - 1/1/2010 6:12:30 AM

DesFIP

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None of the above. I suffered from puberty onwards with genetic, familial depression at a time where children were not diagnosed with this and when there was no treatment. Years of suffering to do anything made me profoundly grateful to those who could make major decisions without struggling. Being intelligent, I also saw the value in those who not only could make decisions but had the capabilities of making good ones. I saw damn few people capable of that in their interpersonal relationships.

My life and my experience taught me how to recognize someone who was capable of making good decisions that improved the lives of those impacted by those self same decisions and taught me to appreciate such a person. Having met one whose capabilities are at that level, I knew he was the right one for me.

In addition, I learned before committing that we were compatible on all kinds of levels, big and small.

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RE: Is your D/s disposition mostly rooted in you Id, yo... - 1/1/2010 9:29:38 AM

NihilusZero

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Id.

The process of dominance, in how it manifests in relationships for me, isn't an active decision or conscious self-placement into the role.

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Post #: 50

RE: Is your D/s disposition mostly rooted in you Id, yo... - 1/1/2010 9:30:45 AM

NihilusZero

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dominasola

And women couldn't achieve it at all. But, shh...

Just like the female orgasm.

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I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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Post #: 51

RE: Is your D/s disposition mostly rooted in you Id, yo... - 1/1/2010 9:51:54 AM

Dominasola

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dominasola

And women couldn't achieve it at all. But, shh...

Just like the female orgasm.

And we all know how wrong he was about THAT particular detail...

(in reply to NihilusZero)

Post #: 52

RE: Is your D/s disposition mostly rooted in you Id, yo... - 1/1/2010 5:21:16 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Well, my thought on the matter is this - first of all; in my case, every romantic relationship is erected upon the foundation, and built around the framework, of my submission to my partner. That, as I said earlier, is the primal urge that dictates how I relate to a woman that I love.

But the trouble with the id is, it's all about that instant-gratification thang. The id is a 3-year old child; whatever it wants, it wants right now, and fuck the consequences. The super-ego stands in constant opposition to the id - the super-ego is the 3-year old's father, insisting that the impulsive little bastard act in a responsible, appropriate manner. If you let the id direct your actions, you behave in ways that are destructive to relationships - the id, with it's insistence upon immediate gratification of every desire, would act in constant disregard for the responsibilities and obligations that people in relationships have to one another. So, it's the super ego that controls the id, allowing it to follow the path it needs to follow to fulfillment, but ensuring that it do so in a responsible manner.

Actually, that's a gross oversimplification of the way the process works, because in reality it's the ego that acts as the intermediary between the id and the super-ego. It's the ego that actually does the regulating. The super-ego simply advises. You could say the id demands, the super-ego advises, and the ego listens, decides, and directs. But for the sake of simplicity, I think the explanation works pretty well to summarize what I meant.

Ok, I get it now. It is similar to response to Akasha here but in much more detail and with much more reflection. Thanks :-)

- LA

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Post #: 53

RE: Is your D/s disposition mostly rooted in you Id, yo... - 1/1/2010 5:24:00 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dominasola

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

~fr

Doesn't Freuds "structure" mean we all have ALL 3?
We can't chose which one, we have all 3 in us. If you chose 1, you don't have a structure. They are connected, linked.

Freud himself didn't believe that everyone could achieve a Super-Ego, though. Only those who were able to overcome the Oedipus Complex. And women couldn't achieve it at all. But, shh...

True Dominasola

An to answer Justme696, my OP asked in which is it mostly rooted because one might supose that if Freud spoke of all 3, we might have all 3.

- LA

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Post #: 54

RE: Is your D/s disposition mostly rooted in you Id, yo... - 1/1/2010 5:25:55 PM

Phoenixpower

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for me it is my super ego...as it is by conscious choice and I could still do well without as alternative if I would have to

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RE: Is your D/s disposition mostly rooted in you Id, yo... - 1/1/2010 7:46:03 PM

Prinsexx

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To the ego, the present moment hardly exists. Only past and future are considered important. This total reversal of the truth accounts for the fact that in the ego mode the mind is so dysfunctional. It is always concerned with keeping the past alive, because without it - who are you?
Eckhart Tolle Source: The Power of Now : A Guide to Spiritual Enlightenment

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RE: Is your D/s disposition mostly rooted in you Id, yo... - 1/1/2010 8:07:58 PM

batshalom

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Freud was pretty wrong about most things but he did take psychology away from introspection and turn it into a measurable science of the higher cognitions. Nothing is id, ego, or superego. It's too simplistic.

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Post #: 57

RE: Is your D/s disposition mostly rooted in you Id, yo... - 1/1/2010 8:43:44 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: batshalom

Freud was pretty wrong about most things but he did take psychology away from introspection and turn it into a measurable science of the higher cognitions. Nothing is id, ego, or superego. It's too simplistic.

I'll say the same to you as I said to antipode as well as in the OP, if you have another theory to present, go ahead please! It won't be considered derailing, it would be considered enriching.

- LA

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RE: Is your D/s disposition mostly rooted in you Id, yo... - 1/2/2010 8:10:30 AM

xssve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

The Superego is the internalized abstract model of ideal behavior, appearance, etc. if this model happens to be inhumanly and irrationally perfect, a great deal of cognitive dissonance may result, an inability to validate yourself, leading to emotional distress, and attempts to alleviate that pain through external validation - Narcissism.

One's own perception of perfect or in alignement with the ideologies of the cultural hegemony?

quote:

Again, very handy from a marketing standpoint.

This would suggest cultural hegemony...

quote:

Fortunately, being a psychological condition - there appears to be no physiological or neurological markers - it can be cured: love is the antidote.

Is this like when a guy has won over the woman of his dreams, he lets himself grow a beer belly? ;-)

- LA

Respectively, both, yes, and yes - although that also includes the ol' ball and chain getting fat and schlepping around in a bathrobe and slippers with her hair in curlers.

In fact, the cultural hegemony here has shifted from political/religious oral traditions, mediated by literary ones (see Marshall McLuhan) to media stereotypes, carefully selected for their marketing value - all the women are thin and beautiful, all the men are fit, handsome and wealthy, etc. - watch any Soaps lately?

Curiously, in the conflict in the public dialogue about media and violence, the empirical evidence points to media, but not in the way it's framed: during the Fifties and Sixties when television was being introduced, a study was done when it was noted that it was accompanied by a sudden rise in the crime rate, city by city. It turned out that the likely culprit was Leave it to Beaver: the presentation of the idealized, suburban middle class family made a lot of people suddenly think that something was missing in their own lives, that their value had suddenly been depreciated.

They called it "perception of inequality", and the media influence, insofar is causes violence and crime, can be blamed not on John Wayne and Clint Eastwood, but on Dick Van Dyke and Robin Leach. It seems the presentation of an idealized standard generates a sense of being discriminated against among those for whom this new standard is out of reach - i.e., the very "role models" that are being defended as "wholesome" and acceptable.

It's no coincidence that the in Eighties, when conservatives introduced the binary "winners and losers" mytheme to justify economic predation and cannibalization during the late Eighties recession, the crime rate skyrocketed, the murder rate surpassing that of the Great Depression. When the spread IT led to actual productivity gains in the Nineties, economic conditions eased and we reached full employment, most of the crime problems simply evaporated, gang culture lost much of it's allure, etc.

If their superegos cannot adjust and compensate, they may act out - as people will tend to do in the face of injustice, real or imagined. Such the power of hegemonic stereotypes, internalized in the superego.

< Message edited by xssve -- 1/2/2010 8:11:27 AM >

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Post #: 59

RE: Is your D/s disposition mostly rooted in you Id, yo... - 1/2/2010 9:26:37 AM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

The Superego is the internalized abstract model of ideal behavior, appearance, etc. if this model happens to be inhumanly and irrationally perfect, a great deal of cognitive dissonance may result, an inability to validate yourself, leading to emotional distress, and attempts to alleviate that pain through external validation - Narcissism.

One's own perception of perfect or in alignement with the ideologies of the cultural hegemony?

quote:

Again, very handy from a marketing standpoint.

This would suggest cultural hegemony...

quote:

Fortunately, being a psychological condition - there appears to be no physiological or neurological markers - it can be cured: love is the antidote.

Is this like when a guy has won over the woman of his dreams, he lets himself grow a beer belly? ;-)

- LA

Respectively, both, yes, and yes - although that also includes the ol' ball and chain getting fat and schlepping around in a bathrobe and slippers with her hair in curlers.

I knew it! I knew you couldn't let that comment go by without turning it around. Gosh you men are so predictable sometimes! ;-)

quote:

In fact, the cultural hegemony here has shifted from political/religious oral traditions, mediated by literary ones (see Marshall McLuhan) to media stereotypes, carefully selected for their marketing value - all the women are thin and beautiful, all the men are fit, handsome and wealthy, etc. - watch any Soaps lately?

I've read McLuhan and Gramsci (one of my majors in my undergrad was cultural studies), which is why I brought up hegemony. I'm still trying to make the link between this and your comment about Narcissism. The need to fit in and be accepted is narcissism? I mean maybe a little, but not stand alone narcissism I would think.

quote:

If their superegos cannot adjust and compensate, they may act out - as people will tend to do in the face of injustice, real or imagined. Such the power of hegemonic stereotypes, internalized in the superego.

Agreed for the most part. But then you need to take into account the rebel, the anti-conformist. And also, you have to realise that with emotional maturity and intelligence, we put less and less importance on what others think, develop our own individuality and see the myriad facets of others.

A little off topic, but I think it ties in nicely. For me, I think my super-ego kicks in the rationale that no one is perfect and knows that I must evolve and look beneath the surface in order to reach my ideal and goals. Also, my own personal desires might not mesh with hegemony. Maybe I think a little beer belly is cute. As a friend always says, why have a six-pack when you can have a keg! Ha ha! Maybe someone will find me adorable in a robe and slippers and my hair in curlers (sorry, I don't schlep... in fact, I'm not even sure what schlep means!), thinking I'm showing him a vulnerable side of me, one I share with no one else, and likes the result when I finish getting ready.

- LA

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