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The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 10:59:49 AM   
Mercnbeth


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Threats by al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula against targets in Yemen prompted the closure of the U.S. and British embassies there Sunday, officials said.

"There are indications that al Qaeda is planning to carry out an attack against a target inside of Sanaa, possibly our embassy," John Brennan, the assistant to the president for homeland security and counter terrorism, said on CNN's "State of the Union" on Sunday. "And what we do is to take every measure possible to ensure the safety of our diplomats and citizens abroad, so the decision was made to close the embassy."


Who can expect that there is a priority of protecting US sovereignty when, upon threat, sovereignty is surrendered without a shot?

There is no legal distinction in sovereignty between an official embassy and the country the embassy represents. Under threat - the US policy exhibited is surrender. Not as visually enticing and making for great television like in South Vietnam, but having the same affect.

It is a good thing that this Administration considers Umar Farouk Adbulmutallab an "isolated extremist" and never refers to him as a terrorist or part of the any "war on terror"; or this would be seen as victory for that group, under whatever reference used. Both of those references are apparently banned by this Administration.

Note further along in the link; "On Saturday, President Obama linked the suspect, 23-year-old Umar Farouk AbdulMutallab, to an al Qaeda affiliate based in Yemen."

The Yemen group is only an "affiliate". I'm guessing the reference is pointed to a comparison to professional baseball where the Yemen group is a minor league affiliate of the major league al Qaeda. That being the case imagine how great they must feel about this result of surrender. It would be as if the Trenton Thunder was scheduled to play the Boston Red Sox and instead of going out and hit in the bottom of the first - the Red Sox forfeited because it was too afraid to play on their field.

"We've got to also get back to the source of this, which is Yemen, Somalia, Pakistan, and we've got to recognize that we've got a group of young people who have been radicalized as a result of teaching by extremist clerics, and we've got to recognize that we're fighting a battle for hearts and minds here as much as everything else."

Yup - I'm sure those "extremist clerics" who helped train, support, and facilitate the actions of Mr. AbdulMutallab are using this as a perfect example of the effectiveness of their strategy; confirming they are not only winning the battle for "hearts and minds" but on the pragmatic side of a 'war' at least their side is still fighting.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 1/4/2010 11:05:25 AM >
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RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 11:03:38 AM   
servantforuse


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I thought that the U.S. Marines were there to guard our embassies ? Or did that " change" too ?

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RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 11:07:24 AM   
mnottertail


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well, soveriegn or not , lets be 'pragmatic'. Yemen is in no shape to guard our embassy, and those guys didnt sign up to fight a war that are in the building, and we cannot afford to station all the resources that would create an effective counter to this everytime some shithead screams death to the infidels.

What pragmatic approach should be taken? Are we passing out Vegas brochures to these assholes?

Sorry, I see your post as pure howling at the moon and the sky is falling, about on par with bowing to an emporer.

For the bullshit it is worth, I am in favor of closing all embassies in the area in case we up and decide to indescriminantly carpet bomb any of these fuckers.

Ron

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 1/4/2010 11:08:11 AM >


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RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 11:08:33 AM   
popeye1250


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Well, I think we should have closed that embassey long ago. And there's about 80-100 more that we need to close as well.

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RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 11:12:57 AM   
servantforuse


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Yemen doesn't guard our embassies. Our Marine corp. security does that, or they used to.

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RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 11:15:01 AM   
mnottertail


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Exactly, it aint like we are doing any good over there for them or us given the current consideratons.

Ron

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RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 11:19:31 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Yemen is in no shape to guard our embassy
Really? What a difference the actions of an "isolated extremist" makes huh?
quote:

and those guys didnt sign up to fight a war that are in the building,
The embassy guards, commonly referred to as US Marines - did. The staff, in particular the Ambassador, also had the choice of accepting their assignments and gave informed consent.
quote:

What pragmatic approach should be taken?
The same one that is, or at least should be, taken on the US Borders. Or should this new policy of surrender be implemented there too?
quote:

I see your post as pure howling at the moon and the sky is falling,
I understand and appreciate your need to do so.
quote:

For the bullshit it is worth, I am in favor of closing all embassies in the area in case we up and decide to indiscriminately carpet bomb any of these fuckers.
Fine, you are officially recorded as being an isolationist. Is that only on the issue of embassies or only when convenient for rationalizing a position?

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RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 11:20:38 AM   
domiguy


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We should guard every single embassy as if it were carrying the second coming of Christ.

I would want nothing more than to have the proud realization that my loved ones were killed guarding the Yemen Embassy.

Red, white and blue!!! These motherfucking colors don't run....Freedom isn't free.

God Bless the Yemen embassy!!!


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RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 11:26:02 AM   
rulemylife


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Oh, for fucks sake.




US and Britain close embassies in Yemen capital


Brennan, a CIA Saudi station chief in the mid-1990s, responded to former Vice President Dick Cheney, who accused the administration of failing to recognize it was at war. "I'm very disappointed in the vice president's comments," he said. Insisting he was neither a Democrat nor a Republican, he charged Cheney of either "mischaracterizing" Obama's views or of being "ignorant" of what the administration was doing to in its war against al-Qaida.

He suggested several times that Obama had focused on Yemen from the first days of the administration, suggesting by implication that President George W. Bush and Cheney had failed to respond to al-Qaida's growing strength there.

Complicating the argument for Cheney and his allies, a leading member of their Bush administration, Michael Hayden, who directed the CIA during the second Bush term, acknowledged on "Meet the Press" that the Bush administration "made some mistakes" when prisoners at Guantánamo Bay were released, only to have returned to executing terror attacks.

Sunday's decision to close the embassies came after a quiet 90-minute visit with Yemen's president, Ali Abdullah Saleh, by Gen. David Petraeus, who heads Central Command, the U.S. military command responsible for the Middle East.






< Message edited by rulemylife -- 1/4/2010 11:27:30 AM >

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RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 11:28:53 AM   
mnottertail


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niether nor.

so, like you tell me, I hear all the howling, what do you have for solutions? How many marines to guard the embassy, and where you getting them from? Afghanistan? Iraq? the other embassies? there also are army folks at some embassies (LOL, ask me how I know) but the situation is not exactly as you say it is regarding informed consent..when there is a known danger you are going to let the diplomats just sit there hoping that a handful of marines can protect them.

So, isolated incident, yeah, about like the few isolated low level rogues in the Abu Grahib situation. Where was your dripping scarcasm then, or did you just today decide to find religion?

It is all vituperative rhetoric. It dont really mean shit for anyone, they will attack or they wont. I would personally have had the diplomats out under cover and loaded up and waited for the terrorists. But that is above my pay grade.

I have worse worries at home here than some fucking slick talking suit and tie in Yemen, or anywhere over there. That fucking situation was created hopeless and dont seem that anyone wants to change it. So, fuck it. Alotta people screaming, nobody doing nothing about it though.

Ron

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RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 11:30:42 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

We should guard every single embassy as if it were carrying the second coming of Christ.

I would want nothing more than to have the proud realization that my loved ones were killed guarding the Yemen Embassy.

Red, white and blue!!! These motherfucking colors don't run....Freedom isn't free.

God Bless the Yemen embassy!!!




Hey Buckwheat, most of our embasseys serve only as a conduit for foreign aid and more mindless immigration from third world countries.
Nice to see you back! Now stay on the meds this time.

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RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 11:35:53 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

niether nor.

so, like you tell me, I hear all the howling, what do you have for solutions? How many marines to guard the embassy, and where you getting them from? Afghanistan? Iraq? the other embassies? there also are army folks at some embassies (LOL, ask me how I know) but the situation is not exactly as you say it is regarding informed consent..when there is a known danger you are going to let the diplomats just sit there hoping that a handful of marines can protect them.




Why not? It worked perfectly in Iran 30 years ago, didn't it? It took less than a year and a half to get all the diplomats and secretaries back, and if I recall correctly, they all survived. So what's the big deal?




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RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 11:37:00 AM   
pahunkboy


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...not to worry.   the FEMA camps are not for "you"


......the US is  "too big to fail".

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RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 12:01:29 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

what do you have for solutions?
The same one I have for most things - enforce the law. In this case that would mean protecting the assumed sovereignty of the Embassy. I find it much easier than creating rationalizations to fit into daily changing conditions.

On the other front, noted an apparently critically important to the Administration spokesperson quoted, I'd use the opportunity to show anyone on the fence the confidence they can place in the reliability the US in support of those who would fight against those who achieved the victory of closing down the Embassy. I would visually and with the cameras running, further strengthen the guards and put every possible security defense measure in place. Once that is complete, I'd have my Ambassador stand out front behind a podium giving a statement to the effect of saying the US is here and will always be here for anyone seeking security.

quote:

So, isolated incident, yeah, about like the few isolated low level rogues in the Abu Grahib situation. Where was your dripping scarcasm then, or did you just today decide to find religion?
In two sentences you got two things wrong.
I wasn't, and I am not the President of the US; however even as a citizen I didn't label those involved with Abu Grahib as "exceptions" or "isolated". The current President identifies Mr. Adbulmutallab using both words. Were that the case - why close any Embassy anywhere?

quote:

I have worse worries at home here than some fucking slick talking suit and tie in Yemen, or anywhere over there.
Fundamental agreement here Ron; except walking on the white line painted in the middle of the road is what causes the US to get dinged every other day. Putting people in harms way seems to be policy in many other cases. Iraq, Afghanistan, are only two places on the front burner. Add consideration for NATO, and on the border of North and South Korea and the extent of how many put every day in harms way is as staggering as is the cost to maintain them there.

I've long had a philosophical position of similar 'surrender' throughout the world and subscribe to the foreign policy of "See 'ya! - You guys sort it out - Have fun killing each other - Here's a business card or two for our military contractors in case you want to buy anything."

But again - I'm not the President and this one seems to be following past traditions when it comes to playing games with the lives of those in military service. He thinks its okay to send them to occupy a foreign sovereignty, Afghanistan, under restrictive rules of engagement to act as policemen; but US sovereignty represented by an Embassy isn't worthy of any similar consideration. The "hearts & minds" application of intent yet another moving target rationalized to fit the actions.

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RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 12:12:33 PM   
mnottertail


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there is no sovereignty in international law...here is a case cut out with Japan but it is the precedent worldwide, we enjoy some special privileges at our missions and embassies and whatnot but.........they are not guarenteed:

U.S. Diplomatic and Consular Premises and Extraterritoriality: All depositions taken in Japan for use in the United States must take place on U.S. Embassy or consulate premises. Diplomatic and consular premises are not extraterritorial. The status of diplomatic and consular premises arises from the rules of law relating to immunity from the prescriptive and enforcement jurisdiction of the receiving state (Japan); the premises are not part of the territory of the sending state (the United States of America). See Restatement (Third) of Foreign Relations Law, Vol. 1, Sec. 466, Comment a and c (1987). See also, Persinger v. Iran, 729 F.2d 835, (D.C. Cir. 1984). It should be noted that Japan has further advised that depositions may not take place on U.S. military bases in Japan as that is not sanctioned in the U.S. - Japan Status of Forces Agreement.

Further, it is real common to remove diplomats as a symbol signalling our displeasure, and less than breaking diplomatic ties.

I see you FEEL this Merc. But you are proceeding from false premises.

Ron

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 12:19:11 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
It worked perfectly in Iran 30 years ago, didn't it? It took less than a year and a half to get all the diplomats and secretaries back, and if I recall correctly, they all survived. So what's the big deal?


The results of that surrender were a "big deal" on a couple of fronts.

Today, the U.S. Embassy building is a museum of all things anti-American.

Old technical equipment and shredded documents are shown as evidence. The hostage takers were demanding the U.S. hand over the Shah, who they saw as a cruel dictator and puppet of the West.

Dissatisfaction over the handling of the hostage crisis and a botched rescue attempt contributed to the defeat of President Jimmy Carter in 1980.


April 25, 1980:
Remember these names always. These men gave their lives trying to free good men and women. They did not die in vain. Three of these men were United States Marines: Sgt. John D. Harvey, 21; Cpl. George N. Holmes, 22; SSgt. Dewey L. Johnson, 31, all who died in or trying to escape their RH-53 Sea Stallion helicopter. 5 of them were members of the United States Air Force, Maj. Richard F. Bakke, 33; Maj. Harold L. Lewis, 35; TSgt. Joel C. Mayo, 34; Capt. Lyn D. McIntosh, 33; and Capt. Charles T. McMillan, 28, who died in the cockpit of their C-130 Hercules transport.



quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
remove diplomats as a symbol signalling our displeasure
You 'recall' your diplomats you don't close, or surrender, the Embassy.

You want to take this to a broader platform? How about pointing out one indicator that the 'olive branch' approach and stated position regarding "isolated extremists" having the common denominator of being Islamic, worked so far anywhere in the world?

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RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 12:25:35 PM   
mnottertail


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What fucking olive branch....what the fuck does that have to do with anything? How am I arguing that? And you call it surrender, good fucking gobs of gooseshit for you Merc, I call it recalling our diplomats........... but ok, we got our last iranian diplomats back without going to war, and in fact giving them arms, so that sort of olive branch.
Yanno the ones Reagan appeased, I believe they were islamic, I believe they were terrorists, you quote me people who fucking died defending a building, and then tell me that it works, while ignoring the one time we negotiated everyone came back alive, and I am supposed to see this stance of yours as 'pragmatic' and 'logical'? Merc, old buddy, vehemenant disagreement with this, no can do....

Ron

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 1:24:26 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

What fucking olive branch....what the fuck does that have to do with anything?

"CHANGE!" Was the campaign jingle - not ringing a bell?

If not - perhaps the relevant portion of President Obama's speech in Cairo. June 4, 2009.

quote:

I've come here to Cairo to seek a new beginning between the United States and Muslims around the world, one based on mutual interest and mutual respect, and one based upon the truth that America and Islam are not exclusive and need not be in competition. Instead, they overlap, and share common principles -- principles of justice and progress; tolerance and the dignity of all human beings.

I do so recognizing that change cannot happen overnight. I know there's been a lot of publicity about this speech, but no single speech can eradicate years of mistrust, nor can I answer in the time that I have this afternoon all the complex questions that brought us to this point. But I am convinced that in order to move forward, we must say openly to each other the things we hold in our hearts and that too often are said only behind closed doors. There must be a sustained effort to listen to each other; to learn from each other; to respect one another; and to seek common ground. As the Holy Koran tells us, "Be conscious of God and speak always the truth." (Applause.) That is what I will try to do today -- to speak the truth as best I can, humbled by the task before us, and firm in my belief that the interests we share as human beings are far more powerful than the forces that drive us apart.

As a student of history, I also know civilization's debt to Islam. It was Islam -- at places like Al-Azhar -- that carried the light of learning through so many centuries, paving the way for Europe's Renaissance and Enlightenment. It was innovation in Muslim communities -- (applause) -- it was innovation in Muslim communities that developed the order of algebra; our magnetic compass and tools of navigation; our mastery of pens and printing; our understanding of how disease spreads and how it can be healed. Islamic culture has given us majestic arches and soaring spires; timeless poetry and cherished music; elegant calligraphy and places of peaceful contemplation. And throughout history, Islam has demonstrated through words and deeds the possibilities of religious tolerance and racial equality. (Applause.)

In Ankara, I made clear that America is not -- and never will be -- at war with Islam. (Applause.) We will, however, relentlessly confront violent extremists who pose a grave threat to our security -- because we reject the same thing that people of all faiths reject: the killing of innocent men, women, and children. And it is my first duty as President to protect the American people.

The situation in Afghanistan demonstrates America's goals, and our need to work together. Over seven years ago, the United States pursued al Qaeda and the Taliban with broad international support. We did not go by choice; we went because of necessity. I'm aware that there's still some who would question or even justify the events of 9/11. But let us be clear: Al Qaeda killed nearly 3,000 people on that day. The victims were innocent men, women and children from America and many other nations who had done nothing to harm anybody. And yet al Qaeda chose to ruthlessly murder these people, claimed credit for the attack, and even now states their determination to kill on a massive scale. They have affiliates in many countries and are trying to expand their reach. These are not opinions to be debated; these are facts to be dealt with.

Now, make no mistake: We do not want to keep our troops in Afghanistan. We seek no military -- we seek no military bases there. It is agonizing for America to lose our young men and women. It is costly and politically difficult to continue this conflict. We would gladly bring every single one of our troops home if we could be confident that there were not violent extremists in Afghanistan and now Pakistan determined to kill as many Americans as they possibly can. But that is not yet the case.

AUDIENCE MEMBER: Barack Obama, we love you!

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Thank you. (Applause.)
Source LINK

BTW-The (Applause) wasn't my 'sarcasm' - it was direct from the White House source.

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RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 1:26:01 PM   
thornhappy


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After 9/11, a Marine Expeditionary Unit (Special Operations) joined up with the US 5th Fleet, heading to Pakistan to evacuate up to 9000 Americans in Pakistan, including all the embassy personnel, since it was thought that anti-American groups in Pakistan would go attack Americans if we hammered Afghanistan. 

Would that have been surrender?

BTW, that's not a whole ton of Marines guarding an embassy.  There are about 1000 Marines at 148 posts ("detachments"), according to Wiki.  Would you rather wait for evacuation after an attack or bombing's already taken place?

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RE: The US Administration: Another Day - Another Surrender - 1/4/2010 1:32:55 PM   
mnottertail


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The campaign slogan was written in Yemeni or what is the significance?


A speech in Cairo (thats Egypt) that mentions not one word about Yemen....

You need to get an updated globe, those are different places, and nothing in your post is an argument to support your position, it is an ellidation that is not valid, the one is not remotely like the other, so even the comparison is faulty.

These are not monolithics we are dealing with. We treat Iran different than Iraq and Saudia Arabia different than Israel. The idea that it is one big middle east full of towelheads and Islamics (meaning terrorists) is what got this travesty underway.

The same sort of thinking will not serve us well.

Ron

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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