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what versus why - 1/7/2010 5:37:14 PM   
lucylucy


Posts: 612
Joined: 3/1/2009
Status: offline 		Temporary insanity must be going around. I'm in a situation kind of similar to the one lovingpet posted about under "Temporary Insanity, Universal Forces, and Punishment." I did something incredibly wrong and stupid (and out of character) on Tuesday. I confessed immediately to my boyfriend, before he figured it out on his own, although he certainly would have figured it out on his own. The problem is that my confession made things worse because it was a very edited confession and upon questioning, my story started falling apart. So I did something wrong and stupid and made it ten times worse by lying about it. I then told another less edited version of what had happened that my boyfriend accepted and he said we could move on. The next day, I realized I had to tell the whole truth, which I did, but of course, that made it painfully obvious that I had lied about the situation not once but twice the day before.

My boyfriend is rightfully furious and I am deeply ashamed of what I've done. Although this kind of behavior is completely atypical of me, the fact that I lied repeatedly has made my boyfriend consider ending things. At this point, I'm not sure which way he's leaning (he's out of town right now and I'm hoping to get a phone call tonight).

One thing that has made this situation worse is that to me, the "why" of things matters a lot, whereas to him, the "what" is all that matters and the "why" boils down to excuses. I know this about him, but in the heat of discussion, I have made the mistake of trying to explain the "why" of what I did. He saw that as me making excuses and trying to avoid responsibility, which is not what I meant to do, but as I said, I should know better than to get into the "why" with him. What he wanted was just a cold, hard list of facts without any explanation of why I had done it.

What I meant to do by getting into the "why" was help myself and him understand why I had done what I did. Yes, I hoped he would show more compassion for me if he understood the why--and now I am wondering if maybe that does count as trying to get out of responsibility. I have always thought that for me to learn from my mistakes, I need to understand why I made the mistake, but now I am reconsidering that. Maybe I have used that as a way to cut myself slack and avoid responsibility. Maybe the what really is all that matters.

What do you think? And . . . dare I say it . . . why? If you're submissive and your D-type and you disagree about whether the why matters, how do you deal with it? And if you're Dominant and your s-type and you disagree about it, how do you deal with it?


_____________________________

“There are those who give with joy, & that joy is their reward.” Gibran / "Those who are willing to be vulnerable move among mysteries." Roethke / "Let the beauty we love be what we do. There are hundreds of ways to kneel & kiss the ground." Rumi
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RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 5:44:33 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		Does the why matter? Well, it depends. Let's say that it is a "rule" that when you walk into the house, you are to always pick up the phone and call him. But one day on your way over, you get hit with horrible stomach cramps, so when you don't walk into the house, you run....straight to the bathroom. It's a violation of the agreed to rules, but the "why" for doing it matters a lot.

However, in this circumstance you did something and then you lied about it. Is he mad about what you did or mad that you lied about it? I'm going more with the latter. Because the "why" for not telling him the truth is kind of an excuse. BUT, why did you feel the need to lie about what you did? That's the crux of the problem, isn't it? That you didn't feel comfortable enough telling him the truth right away.

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RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 5:51:57 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		~Fast Reply~

Why does count. Sometimes. It honestly depends on what was done and how good of a reason the why is.

I think this because... well it's how I view things. I don't want someone to cut things off with me when I had a good reason for doing what I did so I try not to do it to them. So in my relationships, the why is important. It just doesn't always excuse the what.

Valyraen and I usually agree on the why behind the what. I can walk him through my reasonings and, so far, it hasn't really been a problem. In fact the only time it's come up has been not something I did but something that someone else said about us. I feel one way about it, he feels another. We understand where the other is coming from but we still don't agree and we both feel strongly about it. So he doesn't command me to do things his way, he just does what he wants and I do what I want. If we ever have a problem that can't be handled in this manner... I honestly don't know what we'll do.

I guess what we alwas do. Talk the problem over for however long it takes to figure something out.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 5:54:40 PM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline 		To me, the "why" should be considered, However.... The "why" has zero to do with taking responsibility for "what" you did.

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RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 5:57:20 PM   
SirJohnMandevill


Posts: 546
Joined: 11/10/2005
Status: offline 		So much of this dynamic depends on individual D/s relationships. My .02 zlotys from the Dominant side is that I would always want to know the "why" as well as the "what." Compassion really has little to do with the situation. Much more important is if you don't know "why," how can you possibly do whatever is needed to keep it from happening again?

Purveyor of Fine, Handcrafted Kink

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Iam an eroticist
I am a fully eroticized being
No more neuroses
I found my strip naked soul soup
With the deviant ingredient
---The B-52s

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RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 5:59:27 PM   
wisdomtogive


Posts: 636
Joined: 11/13/2009
Status: offline 		this might sound odd, as long as the why is not used for a but. why to me is the facts, and when they cross over as excuses they become the but.

Why was i late? I was late because i ran into an old friend.  I take full responsibility though for my tardiness.

Why was i late? Oh i ran into a friend, and you know how they are when we 'she' sees me.  'but ' what could i do?

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Happily owned by MstrDark1

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RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 6:03:23 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 4270
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: offline 		While I am standing in a very similar situation myself, I have to say that all actions have purpose and motivations behind them. To not bother with learning what those are how they relate to an offense is to never really solve the issue. In my case, I was honest about what I had done upfront, though it took me a few days to identify that I had done wrong in the first place. We had talked about the whys already, unaware that there was a what involved. When the time came I gave him the facts, apologized, owned my responsibility for my behavior, and told him that I understood what it meant he would do. I did not try to excuse my behavior based on the circumstances or my emotional state. He chose to factor those into his response.

I am not always so great at handling when I have been in the wrong in a situation. The fact is, based on how I handled this, that I do know better. When I want to start pitching all the reasons why I was perfectly justified and another is to blame, it is time for me to take a hard look at myself. I certainly hope a partner would be committed to me, in the good times and bad, and would work to resolve the issue, even when I am being ugly about it, rather than run out on the relationship. I have made some big mistakes in my current relationships and in relationships past. My partners have as well. Few things are really worth the dissolution of an intimate bond like that though.

I don't know what you did or the whys. I don't know what has him considering that leaving is even a possible recourse. What I do know is that putting your pride aside and facing this thing can do a lot of good in making things right. He will absolve you of this his way. This isn't going to be about what you think you deserve, but about what he needs to do to move on, either past the issue and the pain or the relationship. My job, like yours, right now is to leave myself open to accepting what may come and knowing that once it is done, the process of putting the pieces together can begin. Take good care and I will hope for the best to you and yours.

lovingpet

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RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 6:04:00 PM   
lucylucy


Posts: 612
Joined: 3/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

However, in this circumstance you did something and then you lied about it. Is he mad about what you did or mad that you lied about it? I'm going more with the latter. Because the "why" for not telling him the truth is kind of an excuse. BUT, why did you feel the need to lie about what you did? That's the crux of the problem, isn't it? That you didn't feel comfortable enough telling him the truth right away.


He's more angry about the lying. I lied because I knew what I did was wrong, and I didn't feel comfortable telling him the truth right away because I was afraid he'd end things . . . which of course was stupid, because now it's the lying that's making him consider ending things.

To me, the why matters somewhat in this situation, but I can't get into that without violating his privacy, and the fact remains that the why doesn't matter one bit to him. Also, the why that matters to me is in reference to what I did, not the lying about it. I wish I had a good reason for lying like your stomach example, but the fact is, I lied because I was cowardly.

He and I agree on the facts of the what--that's not in dispute. Actually, nothing is in dispute at this point; he knows everything now.

< Message edited by lucylucy -- 1/7/2010 6:05:44 PM >

_____________________________

“There are those who give with joy, & that joy is their reward.” Gibran / "Those who are willing to be vulnerable move among mysteries." Roethke / "Let the beauty we love be what we do. There are hundreds of ways to kneel & kiss the ground." Rumi

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RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 6:17:36 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		If we disagree? I give him my opinion and then well..he's Master. What he says goes and I drop it.

I apologize if I made a mistake or disobeyed in some way, I get punished, it's absolved and we move on.

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RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 6:18:18 PM   
lally2


Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline

im far too tired to get my head around this one right now. the why and the what are getting a bit muddled, but i just wanted to send a supportive hug.

XXX hug XXX

but i do recall doing something once and the why wasnt the issue with him either. it was the what and that was the all enompassing issue so far as he was concerned.

in the end i could clearly see that the why was irrelevant. the why was my reasoning/excuse and was simply added to the 'what' as one big uncomfortable 'thing' that needed to be dealt with.

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

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RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 6:24:11 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline 		I don't mean to sound harsh but you had your chance to lay out the 'why' and you blew it. I don't see how beating this horse any further helps your situation. I'd let the matter lie (no pun intended) where it is at and hope for the best and use it as a learning experience for the future. Sure the 'why' is more important to you - it's called rationalization. You screwed up - three times if I my count is correct. Don't make matters any worse for yourself with your attempts to make things better for yourself. Your success rate is not compelling.

_____________________________

"Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable." Sidney J. harris

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RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 6:31:54 PM   
lucylucy


Posts: 612
Joined: 3/1/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

I don't mean to sound harsh but you had your chance to lay out the 'why' and you blew it. I don't see how beating this horse any further helps your situation. I'd let the matter lie (no pun intended) where it is at and hope for the best and use it as a learning experience for the future. Sure the 'why' is more important to you - it's called rationalization. You screwed up - three times if I my count is correct. Don't make matters any worse for yourself with your attempts to make things better for yourself. Your success rate is not compelling.


I think you misunderstood my post. I'm not looking for advice on how to get the "why" across. I admitted that I fucked up. My boyfriend doesn't want to know the why and I realize and respect that (now--I didn't initially). My situation can't be helped at this point--it's in his hands, not mine. My questions were more to be taken in general and to help me work through my own thinking about this. As I said, I am beginning to think that maybe it's only the what that matters. That's a big philosophical shift for me and I'm interested in how others see it.


< Message edited by lucylucy -- 1/7/2010 6:33:59 PM >

_____________________________

“There are those who give with joy, & that joy is their reward.” Gibran / "Those who are willing to be vulnerable move among mysteries." Roethke / "Let the beauty we love be what we do. There are hundreds of ways to kneel & kiss the ground." Rumi

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RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 6:34:58 PM   
osf


Posts: 3288
Joined: 10/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

One thing that has made this situation worse is that to me, the "why" of things matters a lot, whereas to him, the "what" is all that matters and the "why" boils down to excuses. I know this about him, but in the heat of discussion, I have made the mistake of trying to explain the "why" of what I did. He saw that as me making excuses and trying to avoid responsibility, which is not what I meant to do, but as I said, I should know better than to get into the "why" with him. What he wanted was just a cold, hard list of facts without any explanation of why I had done it.


he can't correct something unless he understands the reasoning behind the what , why is always a priori

_____________________________

all around nice guy and creative misogynist

i'm not very skilled so i just hit harder

i want a woman to make into the woman she never wanted to become

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RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 6:37:40 PM   
frazzle


Posts: 1212
Joined: 6/20/2009
Status: offline 		The why matters, depending on the infringement.

Family emergency, work stuff, illness can throw best laid plans out the window.

< Message edited by frazzle -- 1/7/2010 6:38:15 PM >

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RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 6:37:47 PM   
osf


Posts: 3288
Joined: 10/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

I don't mean to sound harsh but you had your chance to lay out the 'why' and you blew it. I don't see how beating this horse any further helps your situation. I'd let the matter lie (no pun intended) where it is at and hope for the best and use it as a learning experience for the future. Sure the 'why' is more important to you - it's called rationalization. You screwed up - three times if I my count is correct. Don't make matters any worse for yourself with your attempts to make things better for yourself. Your success rate is not compelling.



i think , no matter how badly she blew it, he didn't have to make it worse, how can decisions be made without all the facts and in this case why is part of the facts, just my opinion

_____________________________

all around nice guy and creative misogynist

i'm not very skilled so i just hit harder

i want a woman to make into the woman she never wanted to become

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RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 6:49:35 PM   
rockspider


Posts: 633
Joined: 9/26/2009
Status: offline 		Of course it is stupid to screew things up but it happens in any relationship. Since you havent really told what the "crime" was it hard to pass judgement. Lying about it was dumb and proberly worse than the actual incident. The why's is normally the perpetrators ways of trying to make up excuses. Sit down and talk it out and learn from it is my best advice.

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RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 6:49:35 PM   
LadyOddsworth


Posts: 141
Joined: 1/2/2010
Status: offline 		IMO, "why" should always matter. But "We" here on CM don't know what the "what" was. Sounds like the "what" was a pretty serious one.

You lied, perhaps your punishment is starting with the not knowing what will happen next. Give him some time to digest the whole situation and the "why", perhaps it will not be as bad as you fear.

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We all have baggage, the question is; Is it carry on or do you need a U-haul for it?


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RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 6:49:44 PM   
cpK69


Posts: 1593
Joined: 5/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy


What do you think?


Understanding ‘why’ can help explain the circumstances of a situation, and it is useful in assessing a better course of action, for similar situations occurring in the future.

Most of the time, ‘why’ is not a big concern of his, when my actions equate to ‘unacceptable’, and trying to explain myself, without being asked, is not something I feel is beneficial to our D/s dynamic, as I believe it is an act of ego.

Instead, I will ask questions toward how to do better if there should be a next time.

An example of this is the time I was instructed to ‘go play’ in the bathroom, on the floor. Later, I was instructed to tell him about it. When I motioned spreading a towel on the floor, he told me I would be punished for using the towel.

At the time, I was confused as to where I had gone wrong, so I considered the situation, and decided to ask him if I should always clear the floor, including any removable rugs, as there was one, almost always, in front of the tub.

After explaining to him what I was talking about, he realized that he had misinterpreted what I had said in the first place; he thought I had put a towel down to play, but I had only spread out the one that was already on the floor. Unpunished!

Otherwise, live, learn, and then try luvs.

Edited because I got comma happy; damn things always elude me.

Kim

p.s. He almost always asks if I understand why I'm being punished, I learned to ask, otherwise.

< Message edited by cpK69 -- 1/7/2010 7:38:50 PM >

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RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 6:59:15 PM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline 		Fast Reply-
I don't think it can be easily reduced to either "why" or "what". Being on the wrong side of a lie is hurtful, and oftentimes people don't want to quickly brush it away or sweep it aside with an explanation.
Oftentimes we need to sulk and be hurt, we need the time to work through it. When we are the offenders, we desperately hope that an explanation will make it all right, and that the pain will be short and over with.

You are right, all you can do now is see how he will handle it.

But don't beat yourself up too much over the lying after the fact- we all do it- when anyone is caught in a wrongdoing, we evade, we stall, we try to get away from the pain any way we can. I doubt he is so unfamiliar with personal transgressions that his moral universe was rocked by your trying to get out of the blame.

I hope you both find forgiveness and peace.

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RE: what versus why - 1/7/2010 6:59:38 PM   
Acer49


Posts: 1434
Joined: 8/7/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy

Temporary insanity must be going around. I'm in a situation kind of similar to the one lovingpet posted about under "Temporary Insanity, Universal Forces, and Punishment." I did something incredibly wrong and stupid (and out of character) on Tuesday. I confessed immediately to my boyfriend, before he figured it out on his own, although he certainly would have figured it out on his own. The problem is that my confession made things worse because it was a very edited confession and upon questioning, my story started falling apart. So I did something wrong and stupid and made it ten times worse by lying about it. I then told another less edited version of what had happened that my boyfriend accepted and he said we could move on. The next day, I realized I had to tell the whole truth, which I did, but of course, that made it painfully obvious that I had lied about the situation not once but twice the day before.

My boyfriend is rightfully furious and I am deeply ashamed of what I've done. Although this kind of behavior is completely atypical of me, the fact that I lied repeatedly has made my boyfriend consider ending things. At this point, I'm not sure which way he's leaning (he's out of town right now and I'm hoping to get a phone call tonight).

One thing that has made this situation worse is that to me, the "why" of things matters a lot, whereas to him, the "what" is all that matters and the "why" boils down to excuses. I know this about him, but in the heat of discussion, I have made the mistake of trying to explain the "why" of what I did. He saw that as me making excuses and trying to avoid responsibility, which is not what I meant to do, but as I said, I should know better than to get into the "why" with him. What he wanted was just a cold, hard list of facts without any explanation of why I had done it.

What I meant to do by getting into the "why" was help myself and him understand why I had done what I did. Yes, I hoped he would show more compassion for me if he understood the why--and now I am wondering if maybe that does count as trying to get out of responsibility. I have always thought that for me to learn from my mistakes, I need to understand why I made the mistake, but now I am reconsidering that. Maybe I have used that as a way to cut myself slack and avoid responsibility. Maybe the what really is all that matters.

What do you think? And . . . dare I say it . . . why? If you're submissive and your D-type and you disagree about whether the why matters, how do you deal with it? And if you're Dominant and your s-type and you disagree about it, how do you deal with it?



I don't believe it truly matters if "WHY" is used as an excuse. If you do or say something that is unacceptable to your dominant, then be adult enought to accept the consequences. Now, if your "WHY" is an explination, then one should be open to hearing it. A submissive gifts their submission to one who they believe has their best interest at heart, why would one think they would act in an unacceptable manner when confronted with a situation like this? I do not understand why anyone would feel the need to lie, knowing this. I do not know if your why was an excuse or an explanation. Ulimately, for the sake of the relationship, I would listen because a successful relationship is built on communication, trust and honesty. Hopefully, you have not dug a hole you can't get of

_____________________________

Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey Fierstein

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