RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State leaders say yes

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RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State l... - 1/8/2010 9:25:11 AM

Arpig

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So far nobody has advanced a really good reason why prisoners should NOT be allowed to vote, does anybody have one...other than they did a crime so they should have the vote taken away. If you feel that way...why?

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RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State l... - 1/8/2010 11:41:58 AM

eyesopened

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How the hell are we ever supposed to pass restrictive gun-control if convicted felons get to vote?

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RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State l... - 1/8/2010 4:47:33 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

When you are in prison you lose certain rights. Voting is one of them. I you want to vote, don't murder or rape someone.

For once, we agree.

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Post #: 23

RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State l... - 1/8/2010 5:09:29 PM

starshineowned

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Greetings..

I think the prisoners fall along that same line as why we don't allow the mentally incompetent or children to vote. We don't trust their judgements on a whole to be capable of making sound decisions. Prisoners have proven themselves untrustworthy to decide wisely for a society when they have proven themselves untrustworthy to even abide by the very laws/legislators they would be voting on.

I can see maybe voting on allowing after so many years back out in free society to prove their support of the society and its greater good but thats about as far as I can see.

starshine

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RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State l... - 1/8/2010 5:35:09 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

So far nobody has advanced a really good reason why prisoners should NOT be allowed to vote, does anybody have one...other than they did a crime so they should have the vote taken away. If you feel that way...why?

One could ask "If criminals have broken the law, why should they keep the vote ? "

My own opinion is this, without laws, or at least a consensus of do`s and donts`, society would be chaotic. If someone decides to break the law, with no regard for societal agreements, why should they then vote on any other aspects regarding society. When all is said and done, they have chosen, for the most part, to work outside of the system.

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Post #: 25

RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State l... - 1/8/2010 5:49:14 PM

Arpig

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Well prisoners vote in Canada and there doesn't seem to be any problem with it. I am still hoping somebody can come up with a sensible reason why they should be denied suffrage.
As to why they should be allowed to vote...simple, they are still citizens and voting is the most basic right of any citizen in a democratic society and I do not believe the government should be allowed to revoke that right, today prisoners, tomorrow what...maybe Jews? Suffrage is not something granted us by the government, rather the government is granted its powers by our vote, it is an absolute right (and duty) and I disagree with anybody being disenfranchised as a form of punishment. The government should never be allowed to disenfranchise people for the behavior of those people. And yes that goes for rapists, murderers, and embezzelers. Yes it even applies to those convicted of treason. If you want to take away somebody's right to vote then you are opening a can of worms where only people the government approves can vote, rather than all the citizens. Anything other position is de facto totalitarianism.

< Message edited by Arpig -- 1/8/2010 5:50:20 PM >

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Post #: 26

RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State l... - 1/8/2010 5:52:44 PM

Politesub53

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Voting is the most basic right ?

What, more basic than not being murdered by some thug ? To suggest people who would deny criminals the right to vote, and next the Jews, is beyond obnoxious to my way of thinking.

Its quite simple, and I dont see why you cant see it either, if you want to take part of society, take part in all of it, including the law.

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RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State l... - 1/8/2010 5:57:30 PM

kittinSol

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The right to vote is overrated: it shouldn't be a privilege. It should be a duty. It should be expanded to minors (including little children who can write: I'm deadly serious here), immigrants, and prisoners. All the people that live within a certain political area should be able to vote for that particular city's representatives.

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RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State l... - 1/8/2010 5:58:08 PM

Arpig

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Once you establish the government has the right to deny the vote to a certain segment of society the power is established, what's to stop them from exercising that right in the future to expand the categories of citizens denied the vote. Already in this thread we have had the suggestion that only property owners be allowed to vote on certain types of issues, and that prisoners should not only be denied the vote while incarcerated but for an unspecified period of time after they are released as well, so no I do not think it totally unrealistic to suppose the power to restrict suffrage could be used for less than noble purposes. I don't care what a person has done, he/she is still a citizen and I disagree with any government having the power to deny the vote to any adult (Also if it were up to me I would lower the voting age to 16)

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Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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Post #: 29

RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State l... - 1/8/2010 6:04:06 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

Once you establish the government has the right to deny the vote to a certain segment of society the power is established, what's to stop them from exercising that right in the future to expand the categories of citizens denied the vote.

Parliament, at least in the UK, is the safeguard that denying the vote doesnt get out of hand. If one party abuse that, then, at the next election, the people can vote them out if they so wish. As it happens I agree with 16 year olds getting the vote, providing an impartial education on the political process takes place in the education system.

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Post #: 30

RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State l... - 1/8/2010 7:16:28 PM

Arpig

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quote:

providing an impartial education on the political process takes place in the education system.

Absofuckinglutely!! Bring back civics classes. The depth of ignorance in our political system (pretty much the same as yours) I see in my kids and their friends is profound!! I have to explain the most basic aspects of it to them (One was unaware that each province has its own viceregal representative and the reason for that!)

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Big man! Pig Man!
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Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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Post #: 31

RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State l... - 1/8/2010 7:35:17 PM

DCWoody

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Amen to that, been on my mental list of policies for a long time.

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RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State l... - 1/8/2010 8:00:22 PM

InvisibleBlack

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

providing an impartial education on the political process takes place in the education system.

Absofuckinglutely!! Bring back civics classes.

Agreed. I'm amazed at how someone can graduate high school and have absolutely no conception of how their own system of government works. Civics class should be mandatory.

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RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State l... - 1/8/2010 8:17:27 PM

InvisibleBlack

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

This differs from a poll tax because if they can charge you a nickel they can charge you a million dollars. Weren't poll taxes abolished on Constitutional basis' ?

18th Amendment:

"The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax."

However, technically, the 14th Amendment recognizes the right to deny someone the right to vote on the basis of their committing a crime:

"But when the right to vote at any election ... is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State." (Emphasis mine.)

While this particular paragraph is discussing how electors and representatives are apportioned amongst the states, it states that the right to vote can be removed for commtting a criminal act. Playing rulebook lawyer, I would have to say that while removing a prisoner's right to vote may not be viewed as moral, it is legal.

I'm tossing this one around. Prisoners have many of their basic rights suspended - including freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, the right to bear arms, freedom from search and seizure, etc. - these rights are returned upon their release from prison. I don't know if the underlying problem is the suspension of certain rights while someone is incarcerated or that the feeling is that too many people are being wrongly incarcerated or being handed inappropriate sentences that wrongfully suspend their rights for a longer period than they should be suspended. If the issue is the latter than the focus should not be on the right of prisoners to vote but instead on the judicial system and its efficiency and fairness.

I'm on the fence on this one. I'll be thinking about it for a while.

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RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State l... - 1/8/2010 8:43:25 PM

DCWoody

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@Invisible.

It is a tricky one.....the suspension of rights in order to punish and/or protect others is well accepted, and there's no ironclad reason why that shouldn't include the right to vote, I said earlier that they should be allowed to vote as somewhat of a hindrance to overpowerful government....but that would only come into effect if you have a large prison population,* in which case you've got problems anyway.....surely it's the locking up of dissenters that'd be the big problem, not that them being locked up prevented them from voting....but again, prisoners being able to vote would be a help against laws that don't reflect the will of the population.....a theoretical scenario being 55% of the pop saying being a faggot is A-ok, 45% say ban it....and the 45% win all elections because the 15% queers are in jail and unable to vote.
I'm broadly in favour of prisoners being allowed to vote, but mostly I think it's not important.....it would only ever become a problem either way as a result of other, possibly more serious, problems...

The idea that only people who own property, earn enough money to pay tax, have IQs above X etc etc etc should be allowed to vote is obviously a very different and far easier to decide upon suggestion.

*many usaicans seem unaware of the illfitting nature of the phrase 'land of the free', but really....having to add 2.5% to unemployment figures because you just have that many people locked up....is a long long way from being normal.

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Post #: 35

RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State l... - 1/8/2010 8:50:14 PM

Arpig

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Its just that I perceive the vote as an essential aspect of any democracy, and feel that nobody should be denied it. The vote is the populace's only real weapon when dealing with the government, and to deny it to anybody is wrong in my books, the Gvt should not have the power to determine who amongst its adult citizens should have the vote.

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Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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Post #: 36

RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State l... - 1/9/2010 12:34:43 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I believe everyone has the right to vote, especially prisoners

You don't even have the right to a life......someone can quite easily take that from you. Just as no one has a 'right' to vote.

It's a privilege and as such comes with certain conditions such as not breaking the law. I suppose you could argue the punishment is jail time.

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RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State l... - 1/9/2010 12:45:55 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

a really good reason why prisoners should NOT be allowed to vote

Well, theoretically, they could vote to elect someone to overturn their convictions.

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Post #: 38

RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State l... - 1/9/2010 12:47:38 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

The right to vote is overrated: it shouldn't be a privilege. It should be a duty.

If you knocked together a fire outside the door of Kendals department store.....people would walk right through it to get a 600 quid pair of socks. When it comes to politics the majority of people don't have a clue nor much of an interest.

I'd go the other way and make having the vote subject to certain conditions - a sort of exam to ensure that those who have an interest in politics and are responsible with the vote are the people who are afforded the privilege of having the vote. The elites of the 18th century were entirely correct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

It should be expanded to minors (including little children who can write: I'm deadly serious here)

Then Aslan the lion will be running the show.....which is great where you want to live in the land of Narnia.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 1/9/2010 12:49:01 AM >

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RE: Prison voting headed to U.S. Supreme Court? State l... - 1/9/2010 12:56:11 AM

willbeurdaddy

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voting isnt a right, its a privilege. Laws can grant or deny privileges. This has no chance in the current SCOTUS. Even Sotomayor will support denying felons the right to vote.

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Post #: 40

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