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Crossing the thin gray line - 1/8/2010 3:11:10 AM

allthatjaz

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I think we pretty much pride ourselves that we are open minded enough to talk about anything BDSM related. Some things still may revolt or frighten us and on here we have a right to say that we love it, hate it or are indifferent to it.
There are particular subjects where we tread the thin gray line.
Lets take play rape as an example of that.
some women on these boards have been through horrific real life ordeals. Some of those women are offended at the thought of 'play rape' whilst others that have been through similar ordeals want to re-enact their ordeal in some way. There is nothing wrong with either but should the women that wish to re-enact say nothing because it effects the women that are offended?

I know that I said in my first paragraph that we all have the right to state our view and I stand by that but when we get onto subjects like this its like walking on rice paper.

There was a thread a little time back where someone stated she was into a certain type of play (not rape but something that could of stemmed from a past trauma) I immediately related to her kink and so followed the thread but decided to say nothing.
Many people came to that thread and voiced rl experiences. It was clear that many of them where offended and the woman in question was told by a few that if she had suffered this trauma in rl then she would never go down this route. I disagreed because I had been a victim of this very thing, I think this woman probably had too, and yet I choose to go down that very route within the darker side of my kink. As the thread went on it was obvious that she was feeling more and more guilty. I was feeling more and more guilty and yet why should I/we?

Most of us go through a period of guilt over a past trauma. We heal in different ways and have our own coping mechanisms that could consist of never telling a soul, telling everyone or telling people that they feel the need to go back to that dark place with a sane and trustworthy partner.

For the later, do you think it should be something that we can discuss here or do you think it upsets too many people? of course we can't ever really stop it being discussed on an open forum and personally I don't for a minute believe we should.

I would be interested on other opinions?

< Message edited by allthatjaz -- 1/8/2010 3:15:41 AM >

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RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/8/2010 3:44:53 AM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

For the later, do you think it should be something that we can discuss here or do you think it upsets too many people?

I started a similiar thread on a different website sparked by the use of SS uniforms in a scene.

There are things that I find offensive and disturbing when it comes to scenes. Rape play isn't one of them but scenes that have to do with religion can hit a huge button with me. I really have a private loathing for the Jesus butt-plugs and once completely lost all desire to scene or even be at the club I was playing at when I heard a dominant tell the submissive he was beating (she was crying out for G-d) that G-d wouldn't help her.

Still, I don't think they should have stopped from doing the scene. Nor do I think anyone should be stopped from talking about the scenes they enjoy on the forums. I think it would have been very polite and courteous, in the case above, to pull the dominant scening with me aside and ask if that sort of scene would bother us since the club was extremely empty. We were the only ones playing at the time and probably would have been done in short order. But certainly not required by any means and I don't consider them rude for not having done so.

I do think that people need to be aware of if they have kinks or desires that can push buttons particularly hard. There is a difference between discussing one's kink and say... telling a rape victim that she should get overself and try rape play anyway because it's really fun.

Similiarly, people should be aware of the time and place to discuss their kinks. If someone comes to the boards saying that they have been sexually assaulted and asking for advice, that would not be a time to try and get details to feed a rape kink. While I support someone's right to engage in Nazi play, even though I would prefer to never be witness to such, if I start a thread about Judaism and power dynamics in general, that wouldn't be the place to come in bragging about finding a new piece to the uniform.

People recover from trauma in different ways. A poster, in response to my thread, shared that there was a demand for Nazi/Jewish porn in Israel after WWII. Some people feel guilty because they have a desire for contraversial race play. White master, black slave.

My position, however much fire it may or may not get me, is that I don't think we choose our kinks. However we acquire them, I don't know but I have never set out to decide that I will be turned on by this or that. Because of that, if someone is wired to get off on this or that, I'm only offended if it goes beyond a kink or they are bringing it into my house, or other place where I can reasonably expect to have my wishes respected, despite being asked/told not to.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 1/8/2010 3:45:46 AM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to allthatjaz)

Post #: 2

RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/8/2010 3:51:44 AM

LillyoftheVally

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Joined: 7/22/2009
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I think people should be able to talk about what they like, but when there is a subject that is known to be something that could hurt/upset people make it clear what the subject is about before anyone has to click on it, that means that people (adults) have the choice of whether to cause themselves offense or not.

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 3

RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/8/2010 4:08:00 AM

ranja

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Joined: 11/1/2007
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I think a person has to be very careful when they talk about intimate feelings especially if they still hurt about it... on a public forum... so many people just have a knee jerk reaction and blurt out something agressive to kick a 'weirdo' in the gutter.

Also if it is just a kink and not a traumatic experience that you like to re-visit, keep inmind that some hurt people might slate you for your desires and maybe try to just cut them some slack... this is indeed an open forum...
and maybe their experiences might actually prepare you for some issues you had not previous considered...

it has surprised me how 'narrow' and 'precise' some people are about kink... and that is amongst 'kinky minded' people

but i have learned so much from openminded well spoken people i think it is well worth it to use these forums to learn and discuss things

isn't there such a thing as guilty pleasures?

(in reply to allthatjaz)

Post #: 4

RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/8/2010 4:26:10 AM

Domin8tingUrDrmz

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From: Portland Metro, Oregon
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I agree with Lilly. I think putting up a disclaimer is a very considerate idea and allows other readers to decide if they wish to continue reading. Even so, I think that disclaimer is a courtesy and not a requirement.

We are supposedly adults on these fora and if we encounter a thread that is too intense for us, we should skip it. Not all of us do this, I'm certainly guilty of entering a thread or three where I should have just skipped it's contents.

So the real question comes to this: Are you comfortable enough discussing a topic that may bring you strong emotional backlash? If you can accept the outrage of some, or even many, posters in order to find the comments that are helpful, post away. If you would rather not encounter that much emotion, then you'd likely be better off avoiding the topic. But can you? Absolutely. You don't need our permission.

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(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

Post #: 5

RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/8/2010 4:33:35 AM

lally2

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Joined: 4/16/2009
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darn i cant remember what the question was! hang on

i think that if there was less judgmentalism going on then maybe more people would come forward with their private thoughts and questions. it would make this place even more interesting than it already is.

in the end what does it matter if someone youll never meet and will never know needs to run through bloomingdales dressed like hitler. there are all sorts of people out there and we're never gonna meet any of them (hopefully

) despising them isnt going to make them go away.

here of all places there is the basic tenent 'each to their own' and so long as its safe, sane, concensual and doesnt involve kids or animals then its a topic for discussion.

edited to add: - im not sure how you can promote the disclaimer idea to new people posting - but i agree in principle. generally though i think it should maybe become a 'common decency' thing not to bash someone for their kink, this is a bdsm site after all.

< Message edited by lally2 -- 1/8/2010 4:40:03 AM >

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to ranja)

Post #: 6

RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/8/2010 4:46:57 AM

pompeii

Posts: 934
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From: Silicon Valley, San Jose, California
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For me, it's the whole owning a person slave thing. Like rape or knife play, wanting a slave girl is not PC - but boy oh boy, would it be fun!

(in reply to lally2)

Post #: 7

RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/8/2010 5:11:50 AM

myotherself

Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline

-FR-

For personal reasons I have HUGE red flags for certain types of play. I won't engage in them, and even the mention of them makes me feel ill.

But these are MY issues - no-one else's. My intimate friends and any play partners are away of them and respect my concerns. But on the public fora I'm aware that these are things that make others hot, and that is absolutely fine.

But I'm a big girl, all growed-up with a comfy pair of big-girl panties, so I just avoid those threads. I concur with other posters that some kind of disclaimer, or a clear thread title, would help me to do that.

But more than that - I just take my chances. Hell, I'd miss out on so much good advice and truly bad humour if I stopped reading the boards!

_____________________________

There's nowt so queer as folk

(in reply to pompeii)

Post #: 8

RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/8/2010 5:34:40 AM

lally2

Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
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i want youre bunny raddit and i want him now!!

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to myotherself)

Post #: 9

RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/8/2010 5:42:18 AM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
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*whispers* Careful... if you put the bunny in your cleavage it lets out lavender-scented farts.

- Back to your regularly scheduled serious discussion -

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to lally2)

Post #: 10

RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/8/2010 5:42:27 AM

breatheasone

Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

i want youre bunny raddit and i want him now!!

OMG! me TOO! my sister had a bunny named Dewy, he was SO cute. She had him potty trained and everything.

_____________________________

Romans 10:13,For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
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(in reply to lally2)

Post #: 11

RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/8/2010 5:42:50 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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I have friends who have a huge variety of kink interests some of which I wouldn't touch with the proverbial barge pole. They do their thing and I do mine with the implicit understanding that we do not clash or rub those practices which some of is fine offensive in each other's faces. Just good basic manners that's all. Similarly I do not discuss the fact that my Maternal Grandfather was a full Colonel in the Waffen SS and took his own life (After making sure that his wife , my Maternal Grandmother) was safely out of the country (That was a matter of family honour), when he discovered what the SS were doing to the Jews, to my many Jewish friends out of respect for them.

< Message edited by IronBear -- 1/8/2010 5:43:58 AM >

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to myotherself)

Post #: 12

RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/8/2010 5:46:55 AM

LillyoftheVally

Posts: 1826
Joined: 7/22/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
edited to add: - im not sure how you can promote the disclaimer idea to new people posting - but i agree in principle. generally though i think it should maybe become a 'common decency' thing not to bash someone for their kink, this is a bdsm site after all.

I agree with this, it shouldn't be used to cause offense but to minimise it. It can't be made a 'rule' but I don't know why people would want to upset people, course there are things that we can never know will be offensive, people can be really weird

but in seriousness there are pretty obvious topics such as the one in the OP's example that people know can and do cause issues. But yeah, its apparently an adult site so people can and will do what they like without considering other people just like anything else in this world.

_____________________________

'My doctor says that I have a malformed public-duty gland and a natural deficiency in moral fibre, and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'

Nah I am not happy to see you either

(in reply to lally2)

Post #: 13

RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/8/2010 5:57:49 AM

lally2

Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

*whispers* Careful... if you put the bunny in your cleavage it lets out lavender-scented farts.

- Back to your regularly scheduled serious discussion -

is it a particular breed.

my grandmother smelt of lavender farts! - dont remember a rabbit in her cleavage tho -

< Message edited by lally2 -- 1/8/2010 6:08:28 AM >

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 14

RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/8/2010 6:01:54 AM

Falcor64

Posts: 51
Joined: 11/24/2004
Status: offline

Folks,

I'm like the other posters- I think whatever the kink is it HAS to be able to be discussed freely. People can choose not to participate. It's not like where somebody takes their sub to a mall in collar and chains! There, the people would be pushing their kink on someone else. Here, we choose whether or not to click on a given topic! Now if a person barged in on some other topic and started blathering on, THEN that would be a problem, just like if someone's talking about rape trauma and another poster barges in and says something inappropriate.

Discussion of all sorts of topics is needed and healthy. There are people who do research on pedophiles, rapists, serial killers, etc, and then write about it. If we don't talk about it, then we don't learn about it, and whatever evil is there continues unabated. That applies personally, for those dealing with trauma, and societally too.

If someone is upset about a topic, then they need to be mature and responsible enough to deal with that upset or choose not to read the topic. If they want to start another thread, "I hate ________" that's fine, too, but people need to be able to talk.

Regards,
Falcor

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 15

RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/8/2010 6:17:33 AM

Lucienne

Posts: 1175
Joined: 9/5/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LillyoftheVally

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2
edited to add: - im not sure how you can promote the disclaimer idea to new people posting - but i agree in principle. generally though i think it should maybe become a 'common decency' thing not to bash someone for their kink, this is a bdsm site after all.

I agree with this, it shouldn't be used to cause offense but to minimise it. It can't be made a 'rule' but I don't know why people would want to upset people, course there are things that we can never know will be offensive, people can be really weird but in seriousness there are pretty obvious topics such as the one in the OP's example that people know can and do cause issues.

There are some feminist blogs that have a community standard of posting "trigger" warnings when they are about to discuss sexual assault. As in, the following comments may trigger strong emotions and memories. Actually, there are some feminist blogs that have a standard for posting "trigger" warnings at the drop of the hat, and they do a pretty good job of creating an environment where people are comfortable sharing delicate and raw feelings and those who don't like being exposed to such rawness (for whatever reason) can easily avoid the comments. That's a bit much in my book, but I point it out as an example of how some online "communities" have successfully adopted signposts for sensitive topics.

(in reply to LillyoftheVally)

Post #: 16

RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/8/2010 6:25:55 AM

myotherself

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From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline

~FR~

awwww...bunny feels all loved now!

_____________________________

There's nowt so queer as folk

(in reply to Lucienne)

Post #: 17

RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/8/2010 6:56:20 AM

allthatjaz

Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
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I think lilly made a very good point about making it clear in the title. Clear titles make me go or not go to a post and before I go to a post I always hover the mouse over it for a bit more detail but sometimes you have to click on the post because you haven been given any clues and once in there is a tendency to read it, especially with my slow internet!

Whilst I totally agree when Aquaticsub says 'telling a rape victim that she should get over oneself and try rape play anyway because it's really fun.' I also think that rape victims need to respect those amongst us that have also been raped but wish to use it as part of their healing process within BDSM and are prepared to talk about it. When I see this sort of thread moving in a negative direction, it always gives me the jitters because its such an emotional subject and one wrong word could compound any issues rather than help them.

I think you said it all Domin8tingUrDrmz... Are you comfortable enough discussing a topic that may bring you strong emotional backlash? If you can accept the outrage of some, or even many, posters in order to find the comments that are helpful, post away. If you would rather not encounter that much emotion, then you'd likely be better off avoiding the topic. But can you? Absolutely. You don't need our permission.'
I wish these forums could make stickies for words such as this!

_____________________________

S&M (Steve and Maria) persona libre de convencionalismos

Fan of edgeplay.co.uk

(in reply to Lucienne)

Post #: 18

RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/8/2010 7:10:53 AM

DomImus

Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
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I think an open forum is an open forum but it's a two way street. If someone is allowed the freedom to post about kink X then anyone else should also have the freedom to offer their comment about kink X, whatever it may be. On the surface it would seem logical for people to avoid threads that push all their wrong buttons but we know that does not always happen. For just about every kink there is out there you could probably find someone who can offer up some painful connection to it.

_____________________________

"Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable." Sidney J. harris

(in reply to allthatjaz)

Post #: 19

RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/8/2010 8:40:53 AM

osf

Posts: 3288
Joined: 10/19/2009
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quote:

There is nothing wrong with either but should the women that wish to re-enact say nothing because it effects the women that are offended?

anything we say will affect someone negatively

_____________________________

all around nice guy and creative misogynist

i'm not very skilled so i just hit harder

i want a woman to make into the woman she never wanted to become

(in reply to allthatjaz)

Post #: 20

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