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RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/10/2010 1:41:54 AM   
JonnieBoy


Posts: 1468
Joined: 4/22/2009
From: Cymru
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
For the later, do you think it should be something that we can discuss here or do you think it upsets too many people? of course we can't ever really stop it being discussed on an open forum and personally I don't for a minute believe we should.

I would be interested on other opinions?


I think it upsets too many people. People who THINK they can consider/discuss certain aspects of kink often grind to a halt on the issue of rape. Having been in a relationship with someone who was raped way before I became in her life and who was also very kinky, I can honestly say that whilst WE were able to work with each other quite comfortably, engaging the issue in company was, from experience, such a shock to many and drew reactions of the very last kind one might expect, that it became something to avoid else spoil our time together.
Then, of course, you get the misguided, bollox attempts at being "empathetic" ... or worse ... the amateur relationship therapist leech syndrome.

Anyone want's to talk outside of this public gaze ... I'm cool with that, which obviously makes MY position on this clear. I agree that it WILL be discussed in public forums, but, with experience under the belt here ... I won't be taking that bait.

Pirate

(in reply to allthatjaz)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/10/2010 5:49:15 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Looking back about comments regarding the "Play Rape" as being one way some folks come to terms with a real life experience, I have to agree and would comment that I have and do use such confrontational therapy to help some people come to terms with a bad situational memories or phobias. This and the use of agreed role play is quite a common therapeutic technique provided it is well monitored and controlled. On a general basis, few people have no itch or bug they can not stand and find either quite upsetting or makes them annoyed or angry. relatively well balanced people can come to terms with such things and just void that situation without going on the holier than thou attack mode or a puritan. Mundane wise (For example), I detest Hiphop and rap music together with the TV programs "South Park" and "The Simpsons". Many of my friends and associates absolutely love those programs and or that music. It is a case of each to their own and live and let live. I draw the line in such things entering my home though and as such they are banned completely. It would be a pretty poor old world if we all agreed on everything. mankind would have finally achieved the much sort after status of mediocrity. 

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/10/2010 10:24:00 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline 		I know it can upset too many people and for the people it does upset it has been suggested they stay away from such threads. That such threads should be titled in such a way that warning bells go out to those who would find it upsetting or offensive. Perhaps for some this would work or perhaps the sting of the heading would more likely entice them in... I don't know.
I don't necessarily think we should avoid such topics for fear of upsetting people but I think we shouldn't be surprised or retaliate when it does. There will always be people that resent you playing games with something that caused them so much distress but perhaps we need to also listen to the ones that need to play it out and find there own endings.
For those amongst us that carry the dark cloak of guilt because they desire to re-visit there nightmares, should they be scorned and told its a 'No No subject'?
Some people don't have partners to do confrontational therapy with but the desire to go down that line still goes on and they are often not aware that its acceptable or that anyone else perhaps feels this way. Thats a very lonely place to be.
I once had a dark secret. The dark secret wasn't about my past traumatic experience because certain people knew about that, it was about the need to re-journey. I didn't have a partner at the time and I really didn't believe there was another soul in the world that felt like I did. I was imprisoned by it and spent years believing I was mentally ill. I spent years in therapy and counseling but I refused to give her that vital bit of information that was making me so unhappy. I hate to think that it took so many years before I discovered that there were whole villages of us out there. That this sort of thought pattern was not uncommon for people that had been through trauma. If only I had read it on a forum instead of wasting years fretting about it.

While it is wholey appropriate to be discussed on the boards we must never forget what a sensitive subject it is for some and as such it needs to be treated with the thought and respect it deserves.

I think confrontational therapy is a much better word to use Bear because that's exactly what it is if its done like you say, in a monitored and controlled manner and not just thrown in as an added extra with all the other things we partake in.

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/10/2010 10:51:56 AM   
AQuietSimpleMan


Posts: 1410
Joined: 11/15/2009
Status: offline 		Fast Reply (although I am sure this has already been brought up in one way or another.)

I almost want to hand out tissues and lollipops when I see people get on this moral high horse about what a kink is and if it is right or wrong. I mean I know that everyone is shaped from what has happened to them from sexual abuse to rape to physical violence to battery to incest and all the other nasties that come along with it.

Absolute bottom line..... This is a lifestyle that is associated, whether we like it or not, with many of the taboo and violent actions that in a vanilla setting are rarely acceptable.

We partisipate, if only partially, as a collective of all the things that can be identified within the cannopy of BDSM. Meaning that simply because I say I partisipate in the BDSM Lifestyle to some peoples minds it means I engage in activities with people who may engage in activities with people who most likely engage in activities that someone finds to be morally objectionable.

That being said.... It is hard to take a moral high road when simply by affiliation with this web site most of us engage in something that someone will not approve of. The Elephant in the Livingroom approach is doing nothing but maintaing the Taboo, this could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on who you are. Many of us engage in activities and are excited by them simply because they are taboo activities. If they became socially acceptable who knows if we would still enjoy them as much as we do.

So in the end I am of the opinion that anyone who complains about the discussion of a kink of any kind who subscribes to this lifestyle is a hypocrit. The same situation in reverse would be wrong to them and yet the walk this line that says that what they do is not as bad as rape play.

I engage in many activities that I know are not socially accpetable among most of collar me. I enjoy things that cannot be discussed because of my agreement to the terms and services of this site. As far as I am concerned if this site doesn't say "Don't discuss this" then I am allowed to discuss it and if someone gets their panties in a bunch then fuck um.

Seriously I am sorry you got raped, I am sorry your Uncle Perv was a little too touchy feely but I didn't do it and if my consentual partner and I think its okay to do then we are going to do it and if we get to a place where we need advice on something we should be able to come to this forum and discuss it, without someone talking about how horrible it really is to have that done to them.

Judgement of any kind is what I thought most of us were trying to get away from, however I find so much judgement from people already here.

QSM

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(in reply to allthatjaz)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/10/2010 1:14:26 PM   
JonnieBoy


Posts: 1468
Joined: 4/22/2009
From: Cymru
Status: offline 		The judgment of others is impossible to avoid, neither is the challenge of "social acceptability" ... it is not about avoidance that I spoke ... it is about not having inappropriate "ownership" of an issue adopted by those who cannot relate to it and becoming tired of wasting time on that futile situation in favour of enjoying life instead.

Not everyone wants to, or can be bothered to be "analysed" by the ill informed. It's like being some sort of circus exhibit for some ... when I see the hostility/blame directed at someone who is fundamentally a victim/survivor that I HAVE seen, it disgusts me ... why on earth would anyone wish to be drawn into that ?

Pirate

(in reply to AQuietSimpleMan)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/10/2010 2:40:50 PM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline
Both you and AQ have made really good points.. We shouldn't run the risk of becoming circus freaks but then surely we are all circus freaks to an extent!
Who are we to take the moral high road? that's like the perverted preaching to the perverted!
Of course this should be fun Jonnie. This should be freedom at its best and yet we regularly see people getting hung drawn and quartered on sites such as this. We will always get the keyboard warriors that will pick up on a badly worded sentence that is then turned and twisted until it loses all its original meaning. That is the risk of the forums and unless we are prepared to come here to write one liners in a jovial way, we will always run the risk of someone trying to get to us.
Someone who wishes to bring up a topic or ask for advice regarding a certain type of play should have every right to do that. If I see a thread on a particular sort of play that touches on my past then I may well read it. I may even add to it if I feel that what I have to say could be constructive to the topic. I don't post with the intention of making someone feel guilty.
It sometimes feels as though some people are waiting in the sidelines just to be offended. With certain topics you can almost smell the vultures overhead before you so much as enter the forum. The moral police will always be on standby and there is nothing one can do about that but just because I am not offended by Nazi play (even though Im Jewish decent and lost relatives to the death camps) I understand why others are and just because I can understand why some people want to role-play something that once caused me so much anguish, I can also understand why others find that offensive and upsetting.




< Message edited by allthatjaz -- 1/10/2010 2:44:44 PM >

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Fan of edgeplay.co.uk

(in reply to JonnieBoy)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/10/2010 3:23:36 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

The moral police will always be on standby .....



The problem I see here is that it makes it easy for people to pass judgement on others morals, and definately comes across as implying that people of BDSM are amoral, and that simply isn't the case.

We always seem to come back to rape roleplay and nazi stuff. Maybe because they are easy "hot buttons" I don't know. Neither is something that I would want to partake in, but also neither is something to condemn either. For some those kinds of activities are highly disturbing and understandably so. As we all keep saying, why can't those who are offended simply bypass the thread? On the other hand, while the Nazi roleplay is acceptable, do we also believe it is acceptable for someone to specifically search out Jews for the purpose of the scene? Or if someone on the top side enjoys rape scenes, it is appropriate for them to seek out past rape victims with the concept that the re-enactment will "cure" their issues? It gets a little shakier there doesn't it?

Not all acts ARE appropriate. QSM admits that he is involved in activities that violate TOS. Some of those activities might be innocuous and just offensive, others are out and out illegal and should not be occurring. It doesn't make it "ok" just because it doesn't necessarily affect the outside individual who isn't participating. Let's be real here, one there is much debate over the "consent" and whether or not it is abuse, and the other is straight up against the law and the violation of pretty much everything most of us consider appropriate. By the way QSM, I simply used you as an example because of what you mentioned. I don't know what you do, what you don't do, and honestly don't really want to. I simply used you to illustrate a point.

Some things have the "ick" factor for many (scat), but no one really goes off that much on those asking questions about it. The issue with rape is because it IS such a violation (typically of a woman), Nazi play because of the atrocities of what occurred during the holocaust. In both instances, someone (or many someones) have been degraded, demeaned and violated in such horrible ways, just the mention can bring on flashbacks.

The problem though isn't simply that those "morality police" will storm in screaming how insensitive the people taking on those scenes are. While it would be better for them to possibly avoid the thread, it is kind of like a train wreck, they just gotta take a peek. What I have seen more often than not (thankfully) is that the majority of people posting to that thread will politely tell that person they are sorry for the trauma they experienced, and then go on to explain why others may deal with it differently. That's a good thing.

The bad thing is when you have the resident smart asses who think that they can make light of every situation and everyone finds them amusing. It's when they jump in with insensitive comments to the person who isn't quite ready to move on past their trauma telling them to "get over it" or much worse (which we ALL know happens) that a line is being crossed.

Discussing these issues in an adult manner and being considerate to those who may be shocked or offended is not a bad thing. Telling those people that they are "wrong" to feel that way or making light of what they went through is. As the OP said, it is a very thin line.

(in reply to allthatjaz)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/11/2010 1:15:42 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline 		Thanks for that well written post LafayetteLady. A train wreck is a very good way of describing the posts in question. In all the time I have been an avid member of the scene, I have never once sat down in rl with a group of people and discussed such topics. I have to wonder what direction they would take if this was ever to occur.
Of course you are right about the 'smart ass'. when people take the courage to write something deeply personal only to find that this deep and personal post is picked up by a laughing hyena and made a joke of, the outcome of that is not going to be a positive one. Even perpetual clowns need to tread carefully over certain areas because life is not always one big joke and people will only laugh with him/her whilst it remains funny.
We have the right to be offended and we even have the right to offend if we feel its appropriate and whilst I for one refuse to walk on tiptoes, I can not use verbal sadism to knock someone and then walk away from this site without a conscience.

Personally I think we can learn a lot from these boards. We can be inspired, educated, get and give some helpful advise. We can defend and be defended and on top of all that we can have fun with like minded individuals and even get to meet some of them.

_____________________________

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Fan of edgeplay.co.uk

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/11/2010 4:54:13 AM   
JonnieBoy


Posts: 1468
Joined: 4/22/2009
From: Cymru
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
I for one refuse to walk on tiptoes


Then that makes two of us.

Interesting, your earlier post about those who victimise (for want of a better phrase) the "newbie", in this respect. When I binned my old profile (the "Pirate" one) and set up this one in my real name (which was obviously unfamiliar to anyone but r/t friends), as I began posting stuff, it was quite apparent to me how ignorant some could be in dismissing or mocking perfectly valid comments based, it would seem, on them seeing a little cartoon cone on the screen.

The above, in a perverse way, can be argued to contribute to something of a filtering effect here, through which those with the resolve required to "run the gauntlet" pass and the less confident shut up. If correct, of course, this would mean that the content of at least some of the discussions (if not, most) could be fairly descrbed as being slanted.

So ... if everyone can just give in to pressure and agree with me now ... we can get on with the next topic.

Pirate

Pirate

(in reply to allthatjaz)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/11/2010 7:28:05 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		I find that probably, most of us walk a very fine tight rope from time to time and must find that delicate balance between not doing or saying things in fear of offending and conversely refusing to allow others to dictate what we do or say. There is no hard and fast rule in this and ultimately it is a personal judgement call. Some have to also avoid discussions in public places or arenas which may cause their loss of occupation or other social/work retaliation. For example I point blank refuse to hide the fact that I am firstly a Pagan and that I am a Pagan Priest of several decades standing. That some people are either afraid or offended when I role out in my normal black suit, slack shirt (or black T-Shirt), black fedora and occult pendant as a badge of office. If it is good enough and acceptable for priests of other religions to dress according to their customs, I must who in blue blazers shouldn't I? For those who object I can of course (If I am wearing the T-Shirt with it printed on) point to the word DILLIGAF of simply quote it. It takes time for people who are not in the know to work out what I am saying which is good because it gives them something positive to do whilst leaving me alone. I take the same stance with kink. I don't give a flying fruit bat if some one is offended because they over hear me discussing BDSM with Neets or who ever I am with or on my mobile phone. None of their business! I have been known to leav a slave on a leasg through a local shopping centre and markets with no dramas and would probably do so again but for one thing. During a discussion here in CM some years ago about this very thing one lovely lady who was defending my stance commented on tghe side to me asking if I had taken into accoiunt possible damage or disruption to a child seeing me leading a leashed slave. made me stop and think and I decided to me a tad more circumspect in the future, not because of fear of offending but to not be a part of some child's problems and perhaps later misunderstandings. Mind you on my own personal turf it is take me as you find me clobber, in robes, work clobber, or even bloody naked and if you don't like what I do .. Close the gate on your way out. For those who may ask about door knockers and especially bible thumpers, I refer you to a good mate of mine from the old days Mr Kevin "Bloody" Wilson and iif you head off to youtube and look him up, search for his song "The Festival of Light" .. It is an enlightening experience which may cause the more perverted of you to fall about in hysterical fits of laughter.

As a rider and talking about my old mate Kevin "Bloody" Wilson, he did the DILLIGAF and wrote a song about it:

Do
I
Look
Like
I
Give
A
Fuck


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to JonnieBoy)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/11/2010 8:09:11 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline 		so your a case in point Jonnie and yes, I think topics here are very slanted. You only have to see the huge amount of traffic that come to these boards and the tiny amount of people that actually post.
I would suggest that anyone just about to start adding to the forums on here, that if they are of a vulnerable nature then ensure you have an impeccable profile and no give aways in the journals because once you start posting you will get ripped apart like a dog! It doesn't matter how much time you have spent on the scene. Your new here and this bubble is 'da Daddy!'

I bet that spending time with you would be bloody hilarious Bear! I did look up Kevin bloody Wilson and although I didn't find 'The Festival of Light' I found a whole load of other stuff by him and found it very entertaining!

< Message edited by allthatjaz -- 1/11/2010 8:10:30 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/11/2010 9:11:04 AM   
SimplyIsaac


Posts: 376
Joined: 12/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
It doesn't make it "ok" just because it doesn't necessarily affect the outside individual who isn't participating. Let's be real here, one there is much debate over the "consent" and whether or not it is abuse, and the other is straight up against the law and the violation of pretty much everything most of us consider appropriate.



I find what you do privately and in the company of only those participating consensually being judged as "ok" or not by another a premise that is fairly disturbing to my way of thinking. Under that same notion, we are all worth judging, as most don't think being hit with a belt is "ok".


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Discussing these issues in an adult manner and being considerate to those who may be shocked or offended is not a bad thing. Telling those people that they are "wrong" to feel that way or making light of what they went through is. As the OP said, it is a very thin line.


Conversely, it's being told what you want to discuss is wrong or offensive that is the problem for others. Those who are the would-be "shocked and offended" should be considerate to those who wish to partake in dialog on something "shocking and offensive". Then we can all hold hands and move forward. As for talking about things in an "adult manner", that's pretty subjective, I'd say.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/11/2010 9:51:58 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

I bet that spending time with you would be bloody hilarious Bear! I did look up Kevin bloody Wilson and although I didn't find 'The Festival of Light' I found a whole load of other stuff by him and found it very entertaining!


Here you go

Kevin Bloody Wilson: The Festival of Life

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJynygnjMC0



_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to allthatjaz)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Crossing the thin gray line - 1/22/2010 6:20:57 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		In general, I don't discuss the aspects of my relationship which get people all riled up. What would be the point?

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to allthatjaz)
Profile   Post #: 94
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