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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/9/2010 7:20:54 PM   
luckydawg


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Very nice thorn, yet doesn't touch on the original claim that Al Queda in Yemen was created by released Gitmo, or that the Current incarnation was.

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/9/2010 7:57:45 PM   
thornhappy


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It's not a simple answer; there were 2 separate groups operating for a fair bit of time - one al-Quaeda group in Saudi Arabia, and one in Yemen.  Later they joined together.  There's a nice article in The New Republic about the development of AQAP, some of which is excerpted below.

From The New Republic:

On a February morning in 2006, as Sana’a, the capital of Yemen, was jolted awake by the calls to prayer from the city’s mosques, 23 Yemeni prisoners crawled their way to freedom.

They had spent weeks patiently digging a 140-foot tunnel that would extend from their basement prison cell to a nearby mosque. Among the escapees were Jamal al-Badawi, the alleged mastermind of the 2000 USS Cole bombing that killed 17 American sailors, and Jaber al-Banna, a Yemeni with U.S. citizenship who was counted among the FBI’s 26 most wanted.

There was widespread speculation that the men had help from both inside the prison and out, only fueling fears about Yemen’s revolving doors of justice. It wasn’t the first time al-Badawi had escaped.

President Ali Abdullah Saleh’s government vowed swift action, and while almost all of the prisoners, including al-Badawi and al-Banna, were later recaptured or killed, two of the lesser-known escapees eluded authorities.

Those men, Qasim al-Raimi and Nasser al-Wahishi, a 33-year-old former jihadist who fought alongside Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan, disappeared into the largely autonomous tribal region outside Sana’a.

In the four years since, they have helped build what is known today as Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, or AQAP, the Yemen-based group which was thrust into the spotlight following the botched Christmas Day bombing of a Detroit-bound passenger jet. Nigerian suspect Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab claims that he received training and the explosives used in the attempted attack from the group during his travels to Yemen.

[clipped from page 2]

The Saudi and Yemeni branches of Al Qaeda made their “merger” official in January, adopting the name Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. A January 23 video broadcast on an Al Qaeda website identified the new Saudi leaders as Said Ali al-Shihri, a 35-year-old former Guantanamo Bay detainee who had been released in November 2007, and Abu Hareth Muhammad al-Awfi, identified on the video as Guantanamo detainee 333. "

The article's too detailed to put in here, but it's worth a read.


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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/9/2010 7:58:20 PM   
servantforuse


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It interesting to note that even the liberal Obama administration has halted further releases from Gitmo to Yemen. The panty bomber sure screwed those guys left back in Cuba.

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/9/2010 8:19:05 PM   
jlf1961


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I stand corrected, after researching what is known about Al Qaeda in the Arab Peninsula, then finding the story from the day in question, I found out that the statement was, "current leaders of Al Qaeda in the Arab Peninsula are Yemenis who were former Guantanamo detainees released during the Bush Administration."

Researching current information of the group, I suspect the speaker was over stating the fact. There may be former detainees in leadership positions of the group, but Nasser al-Wuhayshi the current leader of the group escaped from a Yemeni prison in February 2006 along with 22 others. This is prior to the Yemeni detainees released during the Bush administration.

Part of that statement on CNN was "Detainees released during the Bush Administration have returned to the fight."

If true, then there were grounds to hold these men released over for trial.

Further, an interesting note, under the Geneva Conventions,
quote:

Prisoners of War must be detained in a climate similar to the climate in which they were captured.


This would mean that the detainees from Iraq and Afghanistan should never have been sent to Gitmo, IF
they are, as declared by the Bush administration, enemy combatants.

For the record, According to the Geneva Conventions:
quote:

Article 4 defines prisoners of war to include:

* 4.1.1 Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict and members of militias of such armed forces
* 4.1.2 Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, provided that they fulfill all of the following conditions:
o that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
o that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance (there are limited exceptions to this among countries who observe the 1977 Protocol I);
o that of carrying arms openly;
o that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.
* 4.1.3 Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.
* 4.1.4 Civilians who have non-combat support roles with the military and who carry a valid identity card issued by the military they support.
* 4.1.5 Merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.
* 4.1.6 Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.


One of the primary laws and customs of war is that one does not purposely target noncombatants and civilians. This, as I said before, places terrorist into the category of International criminals, not combatants, nor do they operate openly.

With that said, and the fact that the Geneva conventions has provisions dealing with fair trials, I feel that terrorist should get a fair trial in a Federal Court, and upon conviction, be sentenced to death, not life in prison.

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/9/2010 8:29:36 PM   
TheHeretic


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Rudy definitely put his foot in his mouth.  Looks like he has done a retract and clarify on his mis-statement.  I'm sure Dems will grant me the same latitude in getting over it that they will be expecting regarding Harry Reid's remark about Obama's lack of a "negro dialect unless he wants one."


< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 1/9/2010 8:30:13 PM >


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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/9/2010 10:43:44 PM   
luckydawg


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Thorn??? Jilf has already backed off of his original claim. It was an overstated partisan slam (the first hint is CNN and anonamous source). And your second article refers to men who escaped, not released, so it has nothing to do with the claim I was disputing.


JIllf, you are misreading the Genevas. They are combatants, just not obeying the laws which give them the protection of POW status. They are definatly not PPP status.

Geneva is often mistread that Spies can be tortured or shot. That is not true at all. If they are captured, they can be held untill the security situation is resolved. No trial at all is needed, to hold them, with out communication rights (they gave up the right for POW status). They have to be treated humanley. IF you want to charge one with a specific crime, they do get a fair trial. Then you can execute, or hold them after the war is over. But they can be legally held Per Geneva, untill the security is resolved, with no trial at all.

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/9/2010 11:03:47 PM   
joether


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....

< Message edited by joether -- 1/9/2010 11:04:37 PM >

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/9/2010 11:44:42 PM   
slvemike4u


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I lived in New York during Rudy's divisive and vindictive mayoral terms....seemed to me most New Yorkers were doing a countdown to the most welcome end to his term the morning of Sept 11th 2001.What impressed anyone about his stewardship following the Towers coming down is beyond me...certainly nothing he did subsequent to the attacks mitigated his unprecedented failures preceding the attacks....including,but not solely ,his disasterous decision to place the crisis center at the site of the biggest target in the city.
Divisive and vindictive Rudy has lived off of his post attack performence for long enough.....his 15 minutes are over.

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/10/2010 12:23:17 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Rudy definitely put his foot in his mouth.  Looks like he has done a retract and clarify on his mis-statement.  I'm sure Dems will grant me the same latitude in getting over it that they will be expecting regarding Harry Reid's remark about Obama's lack of a "negro dialect unless he wants one."




LOL! Heretic, ya think?
Funny, the lefties sometimes mention the "Jim Crow Laws" but it seems to escape them that those "laws" were written and enforced by Democrats!
Hell they even have at least one former Klan member in the senate in the person of former "Grand Kliegel" Robert Byrd D. -W.V.
(Of course they don't want to talk about THAT!)

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/10/2010 5:25:45 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

It interesting to note that even the liberal Obama administration has halted further releases from Gitmo to Yemen. The panty bomber sure screwed those guys left back in Cuba.

"Liberal" as in "not a member of the Republican party" I take it. The cunt's no more a liberal than I'm being fellated by Alysson Hannigan.

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/10/2010 10:20:45 AM   
thornhappy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Thorn??? Jilf has already backed off of his original claim. It was an overstated partisan slam (the first hint is CNN and anonamous source). And your second article refers to men who escaped, not released, so it has nothing to do with the claim I was disputing.


Jeff's and my postings crossed (I was looking things up and composing when he posted.)

The second excerpt, from page 2 of the article, mentions men who were released from Gitmo, including their prisoner numbers.  They were the heads of the newly-formed AQAP (remember that AQAP is the union of AQ in Saudia Arabia, and an AQ-affiliated group in Yemen.)

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/10/2010 11:05:27 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

That isnt the only thing they have lost memories about.


Every terrorist tried during the Bush administration was done in FEDERAL court, not by the military.
incorrect


Point: Since 9/11 hundreds of terrorist suspects have been tried in civilian courts. These include Richard Reid, the shoe bomber. The only military trials were directed at Gitmo Detainees, AND at present civil rights attorneys are appealing these on the grounds that none of the detainees fit into the Geneva convention's regulations concerning enemy combatants.

Enemy combatant is a term historically referring to members of the armed forces of the state with which another state is at war. Prior to 2008, the definition was: "Any person in an armed conflict who could be properly detained under the laws and customs of war." In the case of a civil war or an insurrection the term "enemy state" may be replaced by the more general term "Party to the conflict" (as described in the 1949 Geneva Conventions Article 3).

Under the Geneva conventions, members of an INTERNATIONAL terrorist group are not Enemy Combatants, since they are not members of a standing NATIONAL military force or organization.

For the record, only three detainees of Gitmo have been convicted by military tribunal, while over a hundred terrorism suspects have been convicted in civilian courts.

775 detainees have been brought to Guantánamo. Of these, approximately 420 have been released without charge.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Bush was the first one to talk about closing Gitmo,

correct. And he also said that it would be a mistake. Something Blowbama finally realized, but dug too deep a hole to climb out of, so he will perpetuate that mistake.


I must point out that the closing of Gitmo will not result in any detainees being freed without trial.
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

AND he released Yemeni radicals to return to Yemen and start Al Qaeda in the Arab Peninsula.

first, they were released because Congress would not support military tribunals for them and treating them as UECs and Bush had the brains not to allow them to have civilian trials. Second, they didnt come close to "starting AQ in the Arab Peninsula"


Actually, recent intel does put seven former detainees from Yemen as founders of the current incarnation of Al Qaeda in Yemen.







You pedal backwards with the best of them.

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/10/2010 11:09:07 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

From Fox News' web site:

"A Yemeni, Hani Abdo Shaalan, who was released from Guantanamo in 2007, was killed in an airstrike on December 17, the Yemeni Government reported last week. The deputy head of Al Qaeda in the country is Said Ali al-Shihri, 36, who was released from the prison in 2007. Ibrahim Suleiman al-Rubaish, who was released in 2006, is a prominent ideologue featured on Yemeni Al Qaeda Web sites."



If you think that rebuts a denial of the claim that they "started AQ on the Arabian peninsula", it doesnt.

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/10/2010 11:49:38 AM   
thornhappy


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I said that it's more complicated than that - there were 2 different, but affiliated groups that later joined to make AQAP.  The 2 Gitmo guys are leaders in the new group.  It's like the merger of 2 corporations - where do you call it on the new leadership?

I care less for the who led what exactly when, than the fact that the new leadership is from Gitmo.



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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/10/2010 12:12:06 PM   
luckydawg


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And why did they get let go from Gitmo? Becase Bush wanted to let them go?

Or becase having a civilian trial will require that they get to cross examine all agents who gathered intell about them, as well as the Methods of gathering That Intell. All agents and sources would have to be publically identified.

That is what a civilian trial means.

In the Civilian court system, Violent thugs get let loose everyday, in order to work on the higherups. In the Civil System, we accept that Rapists, and sometimes murderes get to walk free. Undercover agents will allow crimes to continue occuring for months or longer in order to go after the Top level people. We accept that.

Do we want to accept that with Terrorists? Its a real choice for our society to make.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to have let some lower level operative go free in the demands form the Democrats (they absolutly refused to put together an alternative court after the Bush plan was rejected by the Courts)and the Courts, to expose Undercover agents risking thier lives in the fight against Al Queda.



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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/10/2010 12:22:06 PM   
mnottertail


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Uckie you little impudent and ignorant sock puppet,

there is virtually no difference in (ucmj) military and civilian trials and court systems --- other than you can go to jail for not making your bed, or going to work, or calling your boss a cocksucker in the military. Now drunks and misdemeanors and whatnot are handled a whole fuckin lot more severely in ucmj than the civilian world, and they have different names for the same shit, but murder and terrorism level shit is same same. See, it happens that both are under the jurisdiction of the united states government and its laws and statutes and precedents, etc.

Ron



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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/10/2010 12:25:25 PM   
luckydawg


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UCMJ, has nothing to do with anything, here MNOT. And you know it.

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/10/2010 12:34:22 PM   
mnottertail


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Right, so why bring it up, this is about sockpuppets losing their memories.

Or did you forget that you posted this:

quote:

Wilbur:
And why did they get let go from Gitmo? Becase Bush wanted to let them go?

Or becase having a civilian trial will require that they get to cross examine all agents who gathered intell about them, as well as the Methods of gathering That Intell. All agents and sources would have to be publically identified.

That is what a civilian trial means.


and I responded to that, saying in effect there is no difference between UCMJ and Civilian law in that respect, and as I pointed out before on another thread, (WITH SOME PUBLICALLY SEARCHABLE CASELAW AND CONSTITUTION YOU DONT HAVE ACCESS TO, IT APPEARS) no, not all agents and sources have to be 'publically identified'.

OR DID YOU FORGET ALL THAT? BEING A NEO-CON SOCKPUPPET AND ALL?


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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/10/2010 1:08:20 PM   
luckydawg


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NO,you never did give any sort of example, nice of you to pretend you did.

The Constituion is damn clear, even a troll can read it.

Amendment 6 "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence."

Not once in 10 years have I seen a lib actuall give an example of why the 6th would not apply(and I have asked this question a lot of times). Now you can throw insults like a troll, but you will never show the evidence. I get that.

The UMCJ is for people servign in our military, it has nothing at all to with anything relating to Al queda terrorists.

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/10/2010 1:48:11 PM   
mnottertail


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What the fuck are you on about, fuckhead?

The 6th amendment applies to UCMJ and military trials as well. So--------------

That is what I have said in the matter, go show me where it doesnt.

Your bullshit about oh, we cant divulge the name of every operative and agent we have working in us interests, becuse this is a civilian court (and avoiding the fact that you are trying to lie and pretend about that that is not the case in military courts.)

The sixth amendment applies in military courts exaclty as it applies in civilian court.
Any court that is military, tribunal or whatever, is governed by the UCMJ (which is --- are you ready draft dodger?) The Uniform Code of Military Justice. By example, the Miranda warning is based on law from the UCMJ and preceeded it by decades. The united states military is not a foreign entity, it is the united states, its laws are based wholly on the federal laws, statutes and precedents of federal courts and on up to the Constitution of the united states.


and for you intelligence impaired sockpuppets search the thread about the guantanemo five, I didn't my ass.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 1/10/2010 1:57:29 PM >


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