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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/12/2010 12:42:15 PM   
luckydawg


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Mnot, in a child case, there can be a screen, so the child victim does not have to directly face the perp. The perp is not ananomous. No one is. THe lawyers know who everyone is. No testimony is secret and un sourced. None. The link you posted says so.

Who exactly do you think I also Am. It is kind of funny to watch you babble about it. Its fucking stupid.

Give a precedent where secret testimony that can not be cross examined has been used in a Criminal court case.

Go ahead, give a real example. cite the precedent.

We both know there is absolutly none, which is why you are throwing insults at me, like the troll you are.

You are like Realone, Yammering about made up law, and when asked to provide a single example to prove your point (you both claim there is precedent for your nonsense) you run away like a coward.

You gonna cite precedent where someone was convicted with secret ananonmous un cross examined testimony? or just make paraniod claims and insults? I am betting it is the second.

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/12/2010 1:32:49 PM   
mnottertail


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Roviaro V United States....

Sorry, you are completely uninformed again, but thats not unusual.

Here's a hint, the supreme court rulings are on the web.

once again you can fail to cite any credible evidence, prevaricate, disingenuously and maliciously ellide the point and attribute premises to me that I never forwarded, and I have to prove you fucking stupid and entirely wrong in every case.

Why didnt you learn from the laffer curve?





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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/12/2010 1:47:13 PM   
luckydawg


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This is fucking stupid, Rosario won his case. Did you even bother to read what you cited?


U.S. Supreme Court
Roviaro v. United States, 353 U.S. 53 (1957)
Roviaro v. United States

No. 58

Argued December 11, 1956

Decided March 25, 1957

353 U.S. 53


Syllabus

Petitioner was convicted in a Federal District Court for violating 21 U.S.C. §174, by knowingly possessing and transporting heroin imported unlawfully. In the face of repeated demands by petitioner for disclosure, the trial court sustained the Government's refusal to disclose the identity of an undercover informer who had taken a material part in bringing about petitioner's possession of the drugs, had been present with petitioner at the occurrence of the alleged crime, and might have been a material witness as to whether petitioner knowingly transported the drugs as charged.

Held: In the circumstances of this case, failure of the court to require disclosure of the identity of the informer was reversible error. Pp. 353 U. S. 54-66.


Be gone troll!!!

and no one has provided any evidence I was wrong. Mnot has twice now given evidence that backs up me.

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/12/2010 3:07:16 PM   
mnottertail


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again deceptive and weaseling out of the fucking mess youve put yourself into.

The entire judgement for the general caselaw is wholly different than that held in this case.

The entire judgement is and I quote:

Held: In the circumstances of this case, failure of the court to require disclosure of the identity of the informer was reversible error. Pp. 353 U. S. 54-66.

(a) Where disclosure of an informer's identity, or of the contents of his communication, is relevant and helpful to the defense of an accused, or is essential to a fair trial, the Government's privilege to withhold disclosure of the informer's identity must give way. Pp. 353 U. S. 60-62.

(b) However, no fixed rule is justifiable. The public interest in protecting the flow of information to the Government must be balanced against the individual's right to prepare his defense. Whether nondisclosure is erroneous depends on the particular circumstances of each case, taking into consideration the crime charged, the possible defenses, the possible significance of the informer's testimony, and other relevant factors. P. 353 U. S. 62.

(c) In this case, the informer was not expressly mentioned in the relevant charge of the indictment; but the charge, viewed in connection with the evidence introduced at his trial, is so closely related to the informer as to make his identity and testimony highly material. Pp. 353 U. S. 62-63.

(d) The provision of the statute authorizing a conviction when the Government has proved that the accused possessed narcotics -- unless he explains or justifies such possession -- emphasizes petitioner's vital need for access to any material witness. P. 353 U. S. 63.

Page 353 U. S. 54


(e) The circumstances of this case demonstrate that the informer's possible testimony was highly relevant, and might have been helpful to the defense. Pp. 353 U. S. 63-65.

(f) On the record in this case, it cannot be assumed that the informer was known to petitioner and available to him as a witness, nor that the informer had died before the trial. P. 353 U. S. 60, n 8.

(g) The trial court erred also in denying, prior to the trial, petitioner's motion for a bill of particulars, insofar as it requested the informer's identity and address, particularly because Count 1 of the indictment charged an unlawful sale of heroin to the informer. P. 353 U. S. 65, n. 15


Please take a moment to acqauant yourself with the particulars. you will see that the error eminated from the fact that the accuser (the undercover buyer) and only the accusor was the case, and knowing the accuser was considered helpful to the case. *NB: unless he explains or justifies such possession (which may have occurred with knowledge and investigation of the accuser). 2000-3000 people killed.......justify this by condeming the accusers------hmmmmmmmm, lets give that a quick think.




For the rest of it, please read (b) and (c), give that a quick think.

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/12/2010 3:55:20 PM   
tazzygirl


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hmmmm

i also found this one, Master Ron

Indiana Code § 35-37-4-6.

Used in the case WILLARD PURVIS Vs STATE OF INDIANA

quote:

Mnot, in a child case, there can be a screen, so the child victim does not have to directly face the perp. The perp is not ananomous. No one is. THe lawyers know who everyone is. No testimony is secret and un sourced. None. The link you posted says so.



In the above case, the child never testified, but his statements were allowed.

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/12/2010 4:01:48 PM   
luckydawg


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You are absolulty lying (or stupid) Rosario was not charged with Selling to an undercover agent. There was no undercover buyer. at all. Just delusons from troll land. You are either lying or unable to read the shit you yourself post.

Its boring. Pretend you won. Throw insults, have at it.



Yet the fact remains that not a single example of secret testimony that can not be cross examined in a civil criminal case has been presented.





Because there are none.

Insults, lies and stupidity have been proffered. Yet not a single court case or example, except one which not suprisingly, agrees with me

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/12/2010 4:03:15 PM   
mnottertail


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oh, the caselaw on it is never ending, the sockpuppet profiles, as is the profile of the master sock are ignorant, imbicilic and wrong, but incapable of citing relevant information, and doing it honestly. Childs play, really.


The invalid assertion that the 6th amendment requires our revealing the entire clandestine sources of the united states is easily dismissed out of hand.

The sort of implied assertion that the military tribunal will be an entirely new creature and somehow circumvent constitutional law and all the proceeding and judgements and could somehow fiddle with the 6th amendment et al is dismissed out of hand.

Imbiciles are dismissed out of hand.

What troubles me is there isn't even a scintilla of an argument about the assertions sockie made being wrong, but its always the long way around the barn with bovines.

Ron

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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/12/2010 4:03:30 PM   
luckydawg


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Also Mnot, are you so ignorant about these issues that you think everyone at Gitmo, is there for a direct role in the 911 attacks? Even you aren't that ignorant are you???

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/12/2010 4:06:45 PM   
luckydawg


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"The invalid assertion that the 6th amendment requires our revealing the entire clandestine sources of the united states is easily dismissed out of hand. "

And of course I never said this nor anything close to it. Sources that are relevant to the capture and prosecution of the accused individual would of course be.

This is the most pathetic troll tactic there is. Lying about what I said.

You lie about what I say.
you lie about the court case you cite.

Its just sad.

pretend you won

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/12/2010 4:09:09 PM   
mnottertail


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well, I quite handily proved that you are of such profoundly wanting intelligence, that your calling an amoeba ignorant is laffable.

I have no idea why we are charging up on san juan hill again, and why your losing your memory is the thread to demonstrate for you your impudence again, instead of taking your shitkicking you recieved on the guantanamo bay five thread and going over in the corner by your dish and laying down.....but I have never asserted that everyone at Gitmo is there because of a direct role in 9/11 attacks, ever, or even close to that. You are simply elliding the argument thru innuendo and red herrings and imputing postions to me that I do not hold.

It aint gonna cover up that you shit your pants and you are a big boy and gonna have to sit in it awhile.



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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/12/2010 4:11:54 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

"The invalid assertion that the 6th amendment requires our revealing the entire clandestine sources of the united states is easily dismissed out of hand. "

And of course I never said this nor anything close to it. Sources that are relevant to the capture and prosecution of the accused individual would of course be.

This is the most pathetic troll tactic there is. Lying about what I said.

You lie about what I say.
you lie about the court case you cite.

Its just sad.

pretend you won


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

And why did they get let go from Gitmo? Becase Bush wanted to let them go?

Or becase having a civilian trial will require that they get to cross examine all agents who gathered intell about them, as well as the Methods of gathering That Intell. All agents and sources would have to be publically identified.

That is what a civilian trial means.

In the Civilian court system, Violent thugs get let loose everyday, in order to work on the higherups. In the Civil System, we accept that Rapists, and sometimes murderes get to walk free. Undercover agents will allow crimes to continue occuring for months or longer in order to go after the Top level people. We accept that.

Do we want to accept that with Terrorists? Its a real choice for our society to make.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to have let some lower level operative go free in the demands form the Democrats (they absolutly refused to put together an alternative court after the Bush plan was rejected by the Courts)and the Courts, to expose Undercover agents risking thier lives in the fight against Al Queda.





I asked you what the fuck you were on about, didn't I? And I also cited for you that simply is not the case.

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 1/12/2010 4:12:49 PM >


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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/12/2010 4:13:57 PM   
domiguy


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where did these fuckers learn to debate?

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/12/2010 4:15:09 PM   
luckydawg


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the Gitmo 5 thread ended the same way, with no one providing any sort of evidence for why the 6th would not apply.

"2000-3000 people killed.......justify this by condeming the accusers------hmmmmmmmm, lets give that a quick think." Your words, what is that in reference to except the 911 attacks?

But of course a troll won't stand behind thier words.


And you are getting into the anal stuff again,how funny...predictable as a clock.

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/12/2010 4:16:03 PM   
mnottertail


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well, you are outta jokes now pal. have a good one.

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/12/2010 4:16:05 PM   
LadyEllen


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you really ought to be more respectful Domi - from what I can gather from the weighted and considered language used in the exchanges we must have two senior Senators here

E

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/12/2010 4:17:30 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

where did these fuckers learn to debate?



they didn't.

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/12/2010 4:25:57 PM   
luckydawg


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Tazzy in no way is the info in question in your cite secret or unsourced.

"Further, these statements were properly admitted under state evidence principles governing excited utterances and out-of-court statements by young children."

Are you actually saying that INtell agents get to use the rule for "excited utterances by young children clause"

sometimes 2 rights come into conflict, for example the rights of a child and the rights of a perp. Which this is an example of. Its not relevant to the situation.

What policy will be used to allow secret u nsourced testimony that can not be cross examined.

Also in the abuse case, the mom caught the perp with his cock out, pants undone, face flushed. There was more evidence than just the childs testimony.

But guess what, no one in Al queda carries a freaking ID card. And it is only by intell work that we can say any of them are part of it.

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/12/2010 4:25:57 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:


ORIGINAL: luckydawg

well philo, you do have to consider the medium and the context. There was more to the quote you cited than you cited. He does qualify it. It is kind of silly to pull a small quote froma larger concept, and pretend none of the qualifications exist.


See yourself.

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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/12/2010 4:27:25 PM   
luckydawg


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silly little troll


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RE: right wingers losing their memories? - 1/12/2010 4:28:49 PM   
luckydawg


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and an editing coward to boot.....

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