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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/12/2010 11:39:40 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin

While i am personally on the fence about gay marriage, i do try and listen to both sides rationally.  Try.  i am not without fault.  One of the reasons i was given is that homosexuals have the same rights that straight people do, and therefore gay marriage is, in fact, discriminatory against straights.  Let me see if i can explain this as it was explain it to me.  Gays have exactly the same amount of opportunity that a straight person has to marry a person of the opposite sex as straight people do of marrying someone of the opposite sex.  Straights also do not have the opportunity equally as gays do. 

Correction: Straight people have the right to marry someone they want to have sex with.
Gay people don't.

Big difference there.
quote:


As far as the religious standpoint is concerned?  The church, especially the Catholic Church, has a responsibility to its beliefs and to its congregation to stay strong on opposing gay marriage.  If the church began accepting homosexuality as a whole, what else would it back pedal on as far as traditional beliefs? 

Except...

That no religious offical is required to preform ANY marriage. In fact, plenty of officals will refuse to marry a man and woman because they are living together, aren't of the same faith, etc. Making it legal will not require ANY religion to change their stance.

Making it legal and getting religions to accept it are entirely seperate matters.
quote:


As a conservative in a lifestyle which generally requires a more liberal view on things, i find myself struggling some times to make sense of it all.  Personally, i do not support gay marriage, but i do support gay civil unions.  Marriage, in my eyes, has a connotation of religious belief, and that requires that the government step in and tell the church what it can or can't do.  Separation of church and state anyone? 

Perhaps changing the terminology in legal terms to unions/civil unions would be more acceptable, and formal ceremony on the basis of religion would continue to be marriage. 

Fair enough. I've long been of the opinion that we should completely divorce (pardon the pun) marriage from legality.
quote:


As it's been said to me on many occasions, changing the definition of marriage is a very dangerous thing.  What else can we redefine?  Your bed is no longer a bed.  It's a box of shit?  That's no longer a dog in your lap.  It's a cunt.  That kind of thing.  (i used an extreme example, i know). 

The terms people use for things change all the time. This is not anything new. Marriages used to be done entirely without the consent of the woman. In fact the idea of marrying for love is relatively recent. Most people tend to agree that is a good thing.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 1/12/2010 11:43:03 PM >

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/12/2010 11:46:57 PM   
breatheasone


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Again, no one is changing the definition of "marriage." Marriage is the act of two people being joined in a legal union. They only thing that would be changing is who is permitted to do it.

Personally, I don't give a damn. But that is just not true. "Who" is doing it has since the Code of Ur-Nammu and through all of Western history been part of the definition.

marriage - noun

1. the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc.
2. the state, condition, or relationship of being married; wedlock: a happy marriage.
3. the legal or religious ceremony that formalizes the decision of a man and woman to live as husband and wife, including the accompanying social festivities: to officiate at a marriage.
4. a relationship in which two people have pledged themselves to each other in the manner of a husband and wife, without legal sanction: trial marriage; homosexual marriage.

Yes, gay marriage makes it in there, as is current with what has become modern usage. But in the minds of many people who wish nobody ill, marriage is the joining of a man and a woman, and means a great deal to them as such. To announce like some kind of self-appointed prophet that "gay marriage" doesn't redefine "marriage" ignores both their feelings and thousands of years of history. And to imply (as some do) that their feelings about marriage amount to prima facie evidence of "homophobia" is simply paranoid and insulting.

K.


Right-On, Well said.


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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 4:30:00 AM   
eyesopened


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Why do you assume that everyone who is against it, fears it? There are many reasons one might oppose it.


i was wondering the exact same thing.  -Smiles.-



Just in doing the simple research and seeing that less than half the states have any kind of civil union and of those that do, none afford the same rights under civil union that are taken for granted under marriage, makes me wonder why.  No one has given me a compelling argument as to why all committed, loving couples should not have the same rights.

It would seem collectively, although not independently, a lot of people distrust the enacting of a law that will permit homosexuals a legal union.  Distrust, prejudice, can be drilled down to a core 'fear' of some sort or another.

I haven't suggested that we force any religion to change their way of doing things.  That is silly.  I'm not suggesting we change the definition of marriage.  I understand that there are a lot of gay activists who won't be happy with an equal but seperate remedy.

But I want to look at this issue from my own situation.  My Master and I are straight.  We are in a committed, loving relationship.  My Master, for reasons of His own, will never marry me.  It's probably silly but He's both a man of His word and one of the most stubborn people I have ever met.  He does, however want to provide for me, especially in the event that He dies before me.  If He were to get hit by a bus today, I am seriously fucked.  If there were a remedy where we could file for civil union and have the same rights as marriage but without that really pesky divorce thingy hanging around, I'm sure my Master would want that for us. 

We could draw up wills, but what would prevent my children from contesting?  Even incorporating will not put me on His employer-sponsored health insurance.  We could spend a lot of time trying to file various contracts to try to cover everything and that still would not cover everything.  Right now the one-stop-shopping of these kinds of rights is marriage.  We do have that option.  Homosexuals do not. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin
Let me see if i can explain this as it was explain it to me.  Gays have exactly the same amount of opportunity that a straight person has to marry a person of the opposite sex as straight people do of marrying someone of the opposite sex.  Straights also do not have the opportunity equally as gays do. 



This is not technically true since in all states, a marriage can be annulled if less than a certain number of years has passed and the marriage was never consummated.  One of the legal requirements of a legal marriage then is for the married couple to have sex with each other.  By saying that gays have exacty the same opportunity to marry the opposite sex is pretty much saying gays have the same opportunity to have straight sex as heteros do.  Straight people have the equal opportunity to have sex with their same sex and gays do.  So there is equality and gay unions would not be an inequality of rights.

< Message edited by eyesopened -- 1/13/2010 4:49:04 AM >

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 6:19:49 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

I'm kind of curious though where anything I said implied homophobia. Because that is not something that I have ever said.

Oh, no, I didn't mean you. You didn't. I just said, "as some do." No reference to you was intended.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

The bottom line is that if the laws truly did give "civil unions" all the same rights of marriage, the discussion wouldn't be happening.

I couldn't agree more. The "marriage" word is being played for all it's worth by the Biblical fringe because it's the only leverage they have with which to stir up wider objection.

K.

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 10:00:14 AM   
stella41b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

want to lay some of those reasons out for us?

Leaving aside folks who jerk off to Leviticus, the reason I've heard most often is simply akin to the same reason we use the words heterosexual and homosexual, namely, because they mean different things. These people see no problem with gay unions being legally recognized and afforded the same rights under the law as marriage. They just regard "marriage" as the union of a man and a woman, and dismiss the idea of the gay community claiming it. From their point of view, it's as illogical and bizarre as if gays were insisting on being called "heterosexuals".

K.



I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree here. We've had two millenia of religion taking precedence over anything and everything and this includes having to put up with all sorts of crap 'in the name of God'.

Those Islamic fundamentalist bombers who masterminded those two airplanes into the side of the WTC were arguably acting 'in the name of God' but did they give a toss about other people? No, they didn't.

The same goes for Iraq, Afghanistan, the Middle East, Ulster some years back, and all the other wars, oppression, persecution and suffering that mankind has been put through 'in the name of God'.

I am deeply religious myself and as a result I respect other people for their beliefs, whether they match mine or they don't, but to me it is hypocrisy when you hold up a figure such as Jesus Christ - who preached non-conformity and individuality in moral and spiritual affairs as a central figure in religion and claim to be following his teachings but then also seek to exclude part of humanity on grounds of sexual orientation where in doing so you seek to decide for their own morality and spirituality.

Agreed marriage for the sake of procreation and creating a family is between a man and a woman but surely we as a society should have now progressed against upholding social privilege among certain people on the basis of criteria which is by and large innate and inborn. It just strikes me as funny that many people abhor slavery, segregation, apartheid and yet insist that marriage is a purely heterosexual thing.

What is the whole point of religion anyway? Is it to offer guidance in matters of spirituality and morality or does it more serve as a tool for persecution and oppression?


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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 10:02:53 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b
What is the whole point of religion anyway? Is it to offer guidance in matters of spirituality and morality or does it more serve as a tool for persecution and oppression?

The latter. That provides a useful political role for it, while the other is unhealthy and subversive to right thinking people everywhere.

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 10:42:07 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

to me it is hypocrisy when you hold up a figure such as Jesus Christ....

Granting the legitimacy of your view (I share it), I don't see anything like that in what I posted. People who pull Christ out of a hat in the middle of the debate, and the fans of Leviticus, constitute what I call the "Biblical fringe".

Look, to try for an analogy, there are things that some people here at CM are into that squik the shit out of some of the other folks here. But everyone still upholds the right of consenting adults to do "whatever it is that they do". There are people who relate to homosexuality like that. They don't go out looking for gays to beat up, or have any investment in denying them the right to choose a life partner and have their union afforded the same legal recognition that marriage has. They just don't understand why the word "marriage" has to no longer mean the union of a man and woman (which is how they see it) in order to have that, and they feel put upon.

The Biblical fringe has capitalized on this sentiment to no end, cranking the issue up into a cause. Absent that, I think we could have had civil unions with the same legal status and recognition long ago. But maybe not, because I also understand that the word marriage is just as important to many gays. I don't know how it will all turn out. I expect that in the end everyone will accept gay marriage. My only point is, from listening to the people I come across in real life, it has become evident to me that not everyone who feels uncomfortable with the idea of marriage no longer meaning the union of a man and a woman (as it does to them) is a religious nut or a raving homophobe.

K.





< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/13/2010 10:47:15 AM >

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 11:00:32 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

The terms people use for things change all the time. This is not anything new. Marriages used to be done entirely without the consent of the woman. In fact the idea of marrying for love is relatively recent. Most people tend to agree that is a good thing.


That is precisely the argument of the GLT community: they wish their love to be sanctioned by society through marriage.

As an aside I wonder if the argument can be made that marrying for love is not such a good idea. The half-life of love seems to be rather small in duration in a good number of cases. At least, the divorce rates would suggest it.

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 11:02:58 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

My only point is, from listening to the people I come across in real life, it has become evident to me that not everyone who feels uncomfortable with the idea of marriage no longer meaning the union of a man and a woman (as it does to them) is a religious nut or a raving homophobe.



That's true: some gay marriage opponents are simply scared of changing the social status quo. Others are simply scared of change, any change. Then you have the people who are selfish and who just don't want to share the rights and privileges they have with anybody else other than those they deem worthy, that is, people like themselves.

I think that all of the people that oppose gay marriage, in the end, can be put into one big bag, with the tag "reactionaries" on it.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 1/13/2010 11:04:01 AM >

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 11:10:20 AM   
housesub4you


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Status: offline 		Ok, I have proof gays getting married or even living together can ruin or create stress in a marriage between a man and a woman.

My neighbors are a gay couple, and they are ruining my marriage.  First thing they did when they moved in was have their house painted, new landscaping, new windows, built an extra room onto their house, and for crying out loud are very quiet and civil. 

Now my wife wants me to clean up the porch by removed the old washing machine, pick up the beers cans, and in the summer keep the lawn mowed, plus she is talking about having our house painted.  None of this would have happened if my new neighbors did not move in

I'm so tired of this old fight, the agruements used today are the same ones they used to try and stop women having the right to vote, equal rights for people who happen to not be white and the handicapped.  And in the end they will be allowed to get married and have the same rights as the rest of us.

If a church chooses not to marry them so be it, there will be/are Churches which treat all people with the same love and respect we all deserve.



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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 12:16:51 PM   
pahunkboy


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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 12:22:03 PM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		I had a few cases of visiting...  well Jim in the hospital.  I would blurt out- I am the brother.  I am sure the staff knew I was not.  We had different last names and looked nothing alike.

Who was going to challenge it?  They never said anything -to dispute it- seemed to rather enjoy- that someone made that much of an effort to see someone.

It worked- and I would do it again- we were not a couple- but I knew he wanted me to visit. 

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 3:57:56 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

The terms people use for things change all the time. This is not anything new. Marriages used to be done entirely without the consent of the woman. In fact the idea of marrying for love is relatively recent. Most people tend to agree that is a good thing.


That is precisely the argument of the GLT community: they wish their love to be sanctioned by society through marriage.

As an aside I wonder if the argument can be made that marrying for love is not such a good idea. The half-life of love seems to be rather small in duration in a good number of cases. At least, the divorce rates would suggest it.


Depends what you consider a good thing. If a marriage that lasts is the ultimate goal, than marrying for love or out of free will probably isn't the best route. The long-term stats on arranged marriages are much better, at least from my understanding of them. The problem is that I haven't seen any studies or data that suggest these marriages, and the people in them, are any happier or more fulfilled. Which is what is important to me.

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 4:30:50 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin
While i am personally on the fence about gay marriage, i do try and listen to both sides rationally.  Try.  i am not without fault.  One of the reasons i was given is that homosexuals have the same rights that straight people do, and therefore gay marriage is, in fact, discriminatory against straights.  Let me see if i can explain this as it was explain it to me.  Gays have exactly the same amount of opportunity that a straight person has to marry a person of the opposite sex as straight people do of marrying someone of the opposite sex.  Straights also do not have the opportunity equally as gays do. 

That doesn't make a bit of sense....maybe something got lost in tranlation, but I doubt it.

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 4:45:19 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

But I want to look at this issue from my own situation.  My Master and I are straight.  We are in a committed, loving relationship.  My Master, for reasons of His own, will never marry me.  It's probably silly but He's both a man of His word and one of the most stubborn people I have ever met.  He does, however want to provide for me, especially in the event that He dies before me.  If He were to get hit by a bus today, I am seriously fucked.  If there were a remedy where we could file for civil union and have the same rights as marriage but without that really pesky divorce thingy hanging around, I'm sure my Master would want that for us.


You are very mistaken eyesopened. A civil union DOES require something very similar to a divorce when things end. Even in the state which have it. Here in NJ, we have marriage, domestic partnership and civil unions. A domestic partnership in the state of NJ is reserved for people over the age of 62 (it might be 65, but I'm not getting up to check my statute books), regardless of sexual preference. In other words, it can be a man and a woman or two people of the same sex, but they MUST be over 62. A civil union is only for homosexual couples. Marriage, domestic partnership and civil union must all be legally registered within the resident municipality. Should the latter two decide they no longer want to be together, they must legally sever the partnership or union. The main difference with a domestic partnership is that each of the senior citizens retains all legal right to their property and when the union ends, that property will not be disputed.

In a civil union, a "divorce" is still required.  In the latter two cases, within the state, hospitals are supposed to recognize the partnership, but not all do. Company sponsored health insurance typically doesn't (although see below) and Social Security does not change at all (as it is not a state benefit, but a federal one). Your partner is free to make you the beneficiary of any life insurance policy he chooses, and it is not part of his estate and therefore not subject to being contested with the will. Likewise if property is shared as joint tenency with right of survivorship. So if you are on each other's bank accounts, not part of the estate, names on real estate, not part of the estate.

Realistically, unless there is great wealth, contesting a will does not much more than burn up whatever assets do exist. On the other hand, if you and he have an open relationship in the sense where you each have met the other's family and spend time, a conversation about it could clear up fears of wills being contested.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
We could draw up wills, but what would prevent my children from contesting?  Even incorporating will not put me on His employer-sponsored health insurance.  We could spend a lot of time trying to file various contracts to try to cover everything and that still would not cover everything.  Right now the one-stop-shopping of these kinds of rights is marriage.  We do have that option.  Homosexuals do not. 


Without a will, you are not instantly entitled to everything he has even as his legal spouse. Married or not, with a will, what makes you think that your children would be unable to contest it? The legal union has no bearing on the ability to contest a will. I hate to use it as an example, but Anna Nicole Smith? She had the benefit of marriage.

Some companies do allow partners living together (regardless of sex) to insure their partner. I know Novartis Pharmaceuticals is one. It isn't common but it does happen.

As for "various contracts" not being able to "cover everything" a trip to an attorney that specializes in estate planning will be able to make sure that "everything" IS covered (except he can't make his employer offer health insurance).

quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened
This is not technically true since in all states, a marriage can be annulled if less than a certain number of years has passed and the marriage was never consummated.  One of the legal requirements of a legal marriage then is for the married couple to have sex with each other.  By saying that gays have exacty the same opportunity to marry the opposite sex is pretty much saying gays have the same opportunity to have straight sex as heteros do.  Straight people have the equal opportunity to have sex with their same sex and gays do.  So there is equality and gay unions would not be an inequality of rights.


Actually that is another myth. Anullments by the state are essentially a waste of time. However, they can be granted within basically any number of years, regardless of consumation of the union. State anullments are based on fraud. Examples would be misleading a partner that you were going to have children and then refusing or worse yet having been dishonest about a known inability to do so. A state anullment would also be granted on fraud grounds if a homosexual married a heterosexual even though they knew they were homosexual (since some do not accept or realize until later in life). In any case, a "requirement" for a marriage to be legal is consumation of the marriage through sex is incorrect.


Keep in mind, I am all for gay marriage. My explanations above were simply to clear up common misunderstandings regarding marriage, civil unions, domestic partnerships, divorce and annullment. After a dozen or so years in the field of Family Law, I kind of have most of it down from memory.

I do, however, suggest that you and your master visit an estate planning attorney. It will be the best way for him to make sure that you are taken care of in the manner which he desires should he pre-decease you.

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 4:46:46 PM   
xXMasterXx


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Status: offline 		I have some better questions to think about...Why do you need a license to get married?Who has the authority to give you a license to get married?Who gave them the authority to license your marriage?And lastly What couldn't you do before you got a license that you can do after you get one?...Think about that and please watch the video and educate yourself.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nOMbfsgZ9s

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 5:07:57 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xXMasterXx

I have some better questions to think about...Why do you need a license to get married?Who has the authority to give you a license to get married?Who gave them the authority to license your marriage?And lastly What couldn't you do before you got a license that you can do after you get one?...Think about that and please watch the video and educate yourself.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nOMbfsgZ9s


Ok, besides the fact that you obviously want to make sure everyone sees this video.

Marriages are sanctioned through the state by license so that there is comparative similarity to all marriages. Also because to end the marriage one looks to the state. A marriage license is essentially a contract. The "basics" of all marriage contracts are the same. In other words, all people entering into a marriage are entitled to have the same expectations (this is basic marriage, not the open or poly variants). The contract does not have a "term" to it, as would a lease, therefore, when one wants out of the contract, it must be severed legally. Divorce and the settlement that arises is the result of the breach of contract. When someone breaches a contract, the other party is entitled to damages. Think of the current situation with Conan O'Brien and NBC. As far as Conan is concerned, NBC is breaching their contract. In all liklihood, NBC will end up paying Conan a settlement for that breach. Divorce is not that much different, except that the settlement involves property owned by both spouses and the equitable division of that property.

So what if these did not exist? Anyone could say they were married, and there is no way of proving whether they are or are not. So any number of people could say they were married to you, and all there is is your word that there is no marriage? Who do we believe? Now with that license, it is easy to prove who is being honest, isn't it? Likewise, without a license, you could be "married" to someone for 20 years and then what is there to guarantee that the rights of your spouse are protected should you decide one day to not be "married" anymore or to sell off everything aquired during that partnership.

What can you do with the license that you couldn't before? You can inherit from your spouse regardless of intestacy. You can collect survivor benefits from social security. You can have medical insurance through your spouse.

It's all fine and good to not want to get married for any reason. However, making the claim that it is nothing but a "piece of paper" is just not the case.

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 5:23:53 PM   
xXMasterXx


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Status: offline 		"we the people have unlimited right to contract"....If 2 people decide they are married and they want to make sure that property goes to the other when they die they can...If you ask for a license to get married you are asking for permission....I thought america was the land of the free?....We have inherent constitutional rights...There is a important part in the class on this very subject that tells when and why the first marriage license came to be.

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 5:29:19 PM   
housesub4you


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Status: offline 		Wow... I thought your low brow BS was just in one link, I wonder who is paying you to trash everything

Ahhh...so in your eyes the part about every man being equal in our laws only applies to heterosexuals?  Or whites if I read your other posts correctly, or just white males

Seems something as basic as being treated equally offends you, WHY?  Hmmm...your picture could provide some answers, if one was into pushing homophobic ideals and why they feel it is wrong.

Oh well, seems your child is not the only one in need of a civics class (reference to an earlier post he made about Americans being dumb and never having a civics class in school)


< Message edited by housesub4you -- 1/13/2010 5:35:08 PM >

(in reply to xXMasterXx)
Profile   Post #: 219
RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 5:33:44 PM   
housesub4you


Posts: 1879
Joined: 4/2/2008
Status: offline 		it states "we the people' not anything else so your own post proves you wrong

See it says "PEOPLE" not color, not sex, not anything but PEOPLE

(in reply to xXMasterXx)
Profile   Post #: 220
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