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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 5:41:29 PM   
mydestiny2043


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Even though human beings have evolved over the past few million years, we are still governed by baser animal instincts. People fear what they do not understand and instinctively, the majority of society does not understand us who are either gay or lesbian.

Wolf2Bear you took the words right out of my mouth, also that majority of society doesn't want to understand as it would mean change and that's to much for them to bear (no pun intended).

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 5:57:10 PM   
xXMasterXx


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housesub4you....ok?....since when are gays and other races not people?...There is nothing in the constitution that excludes gays or races they are people too.....Gays under the constitution have the same rights as everyone else and these rights are inherent.Now the government might not recognize it but by God SCREW THE GOVERNMENT they are not going by the constitution that they swore on oath to do.

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 6:09:10 PM   
housesub4you


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Do you know what side of the fight you are on?  Oh well, better i spend my time with people who had a civic's class

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 6:49:37 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xXMasterXx

"we the people have unlimited right to contract"....If 2 people decide they are married and they want to make sure that property goes to the other when they die they can...If you ask for a license to get married you are asking for permission....I thought america was the land of the free?....We have inherent constitutional rights...There is a important part in the class on this very subject that tells when and why the first marriage license came to be.

As someone who just got their marriage license...

You don't ask for it. You pay a fee to cover the processing (the wage of the person altering the state records so that your marriage is documented) so that you are legally married and receive the legal benfits. There is no asking involved. You just go in, fill out a form, sign that you aren't married to anyone else and I think they check for any records of you being married in that county.

Personally, I like the perks that come from being legally wed. To have those, I have to have a legal status and for that, I have to show that I'm not attending to defraud the government by applying for mutiple benfits or that I'm not already married.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 1/13/2010 6:51:58 PM >


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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 6:58:25 PM   
Wolf2Bear


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

The terms people use for things change all the time. This is not anything new. Marriages used to be done entirely without the consent of the woman. In fact the idea of marrying for love is relatively recent. Most people tend to agree that is a good thing.


That is precisely the argument of the GLT community: they wish their love to be sanctioned by society through marriage.

As an aside I wonder if the argument can be made that marrying for love is not such a good idea. The half-life of love seems to be rather small in duration in a good number of cases. At least, the divorce rates would suggest it.


And why shouldn't we be able? You are forgetting one major issue here: we have more than enough data concerning divorces among heterosexual married couples, yet there is almost no data to the percentage of same sex marriages ending in divorce. So there is no argument in this sense.


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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 7:00:08 PM   
AsmodaisSin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf2Bear

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

The terms people use for things change all the time. This is not anything new. Marriages used to be done entirely without the consent of the woman. In fact the idea of marrying for love is relatively recent. Most people tend to agree that is a good thing.


That is precisely the argument of the GLT community: they wish their love to be sanctioned by society through marriage.

As an aside I wonder if the argument can be made that marrying for love is not such a good idea. The half-life of love seems to be rather small in duration in a good number of cases. At least, the divorce rates would suggest it.


And why shouldn't we be able? You are forgetting one major issue here: we have more than enough data concerning divorces among heterosexual married couples, yet there is almost no data to the percentage of same sex marriages ending in divorce. So there is no argument in this sense.



That's kind of skewed...due to the fact that in most states, same-sex marriage is illegal.  So there would be little if any data on that.  -Blinks.-


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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 7:04:21 PM   
Wolf2Bear


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AsmodaisSin...check my profile and you will see that I reside in Canada. This country has legally recognized gay marriages for approx 12 years so my post still hold validity.

< Message edited by Wolf2Bear -- 1/13/2010 7:06:23 PM >


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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 7:13:35 PM   
housesub4you


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There was just a study done on marriage and states that had a law against gay marriage had the highest divorce rates, while states that allowed gay marriage had the lowest.  Mass, had the lowest rate of divorce while Ark had the highest, seems the more Red a state the higher the level of divorce, but hell the info was only supplied by the states so why should we accept it

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/divorce.htm

Here is the data if you want to look it up or you can reference any church group which skews the numbers to support whatever you want to believe, but remember, raw data is raw data and it holds no support unless everyone finds the same findings, which every college did.  Divorce is up in states with the strictest laws against gay marriage, as our GOP elected officials seems to prove on their own


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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 7:14:11 PM   
AsmodaisSin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf2Bear

AsmodaisSin...check my profile and you will see that I reside in Canada. This country has legally recognized gay marriages for approx 12 years so my post still hold validity.


Ah.  I'll have to look into that.  Do you have any viable data?


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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 7:18:49 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

There was just a study done on marriage and states that had a law against gay marriage had the highest divorce rates, while states that allowed gay marriage had the lowest.  Mass, had the lowest rate of divorce while Ark had the highest, seems the more Red a state the higher the level of divorce, but hell the info was only supplied by the states so why should we accept it

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/divorce.htm

Here is the data if you want to look it up or you can reference any church group which skews the numbers to support whatever you want to believe, but remember, raw data is raw data and it holds no support unless everyone finds the same findings, which every college did.  Divorce is up in states with the strictest laws against gay marriage, as our GOP elected officials seems to prove on their own




That is fascinating. I can only speculate on the reasons why though.

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 7:23:48 PM   
housesub4you


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This was just on the news, be it cable so it should be mainstream in a day or two

Still the info is very interesting, the most conservative states have the highest divorce rates, I mean it's based on state data, how can you deny that and just look at GOP leaders, divorce seems like the thing to do, that and meeting men in bathrooms or asking out young pages, hell even priests enjoy same sex sex, though one  church will pay out billions to never go on record  , even though Jesus said it was a sin

< Message edited by housesub4you -- 1/13/2010 7:41:27 PM >

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 7:30:43 PM   
Wolf2Bear


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AsmodaisSin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf2Bear

AsmodaisSin...check my profile and you will see that I reside in Canada. This country has legally recognized gay marriages for approx 12 years so my post still hold validity.


Ah.  I'll have to look into that.  Do you have any viable data?



Exert taken from here

"Same-Sex Unions

In 2001 Statistics Canada began collecting information about same-sex partnerships, and about 0.5% of all couples reported living in same-sex unions. The questions on the survey did not include information regarding sexual orientation, therefore the data on same-sex partnerships cannot be used to report on the number of gays and lesbians in Canada, only the number of relationships that involve two people of the same gender. Since 2003, when Ontario and British Columbia became the first two provinces to legalize same-sex marriage, most of the provinces and one territory have recognized same-sex marriages. In 2005, the federal Civil Marriage Act was enacted making same-sex marriage legal across Canada. This change required that definitions for husband and wife be amended to "spouse," and the definition for dependent children became "enfant à charge" to include and protect same-sex spouses and their children. The Income Tax Act replaced the term "natural parent" with "legal parent" to ensure that upon divorce, support payments would include the children of opposite-sex and same-sex couples. The Supreme Court also ruled that under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, a religious official cannot be compelled to perform same-sex marriages if it is contrary to their religious beliefs; however, the government does have a duty to provide access to civil marriage for those same-sex couples who want to marry. It is difficult to determine the number of same-sex marriages because some of the provinces do not specify that a marriage is opposite-sex, male same-sex, or female same- sex, or the gender of the person getting married. During British Columbia's first year of legalized marriages of same-sex couples, 3.5% of the marriages were same-sex marriages and of these, 54.5% were female couples. Over one-quarter (27.6%) of women who married another woman had previously been married, while 14.2% of the men who married another man had previously been married. In 2003, Canada was the only country in the world that allowed same-sex marriages between people who were not Canadian residents, and during that year, 56% of the same-sex marriages involved non-residents, although the vast majority (95%) did live in Canada.
Demographic Trends for Canadian Families

The demographic trends that have been noted for Canadian families (eg, rising divorce rate and greater numbers of WOMEN IN THE LABOUR FORCE) are not restricted to Canada but are typical of all highly industrialized nations, although significant national differences remain. Another common trend among industrialized countries is a sharp decline in fertility rates. In Canada between 1960 and 1980, fertility rates dropped by more than 50% in all age categories and by 2003 the birth rate was 10.6 per 1000 people. While the average number of children per woman was 3.9 in 1960, within 40 years that figure had dropped to 1.5.
Contemporary Families

Although marriage is defined as a partnership of equals, the economic consequences of a divorce tend to be more negative for women and children and neutral or positive for men. The increase in the number of divorces, and the consequent increase in remarriages, coupled with the increase in the proportion of women who give birth outside of marriage, has led to a discrepancy between marital and parental roles: an increasing proportion of the people who are parents together are not necessarily married to each other. This discrepancy has different consequences for men and women: most women continue to live together with most of their dependent biological children, while many men do not share a household with (all) their biological children. For children this means that they may have parents living in separate households, or that they may live with a step-parent. The availability of divorce and the marked increase in common-law relationships underlines the voluntary rather than compulsory character of marriage. See also HISTORY OF MARRIAGE AND DIVORCE. Author M. EICHLER
Suggested Reading

B. Bradbury, Working Families (1993); J. Dumas and A. Belanger, Report on the Demographic Situation in Canada 1995 (1996); M. Eichler, Families in Canada Today (1988); J.G. Snell, In the Shadow of the Law. Divorce in Canada 1900-1939 (1991); Vanier Institute of the Family, Profiling Canada's Families (1994)."


Divorce Rates in Canada


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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 8:03:12 PM   
AquaticSub


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Are you aware that asking me the exact same questions, only in a PM, does not make you more convincing?

And again: You get a license so that the state knows who you are marrying so that you can have the legal benfits of marriage.

If you don't want a license or care about those benfits you are not required to have the license to have a wedding ceremony. There are religious officals of all faiths who will still perform the exact same ceremony. The only difference is that there will be no change in your legal status.

Effectively, if you view marriage as a religious construct, you have no need for a license to be married. If you want the legal perks, you have to fill out a form and pay for the few manhours involving in changing the records so that you can receive those perks.

I'm not interested in your youtube video. If you can't make your points where through clear discussion, your case isn't strong.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 1/13/2010 8:25:38 PM >


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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 8:36:31 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xXMasterXx

I have some better questions to think about...Why do you need a license to get married?Who has the authority to give you a license to get married?Who gave them the authority to license your marriage?And lastly What couldn't you do before you got a license that you can do after you get one?...Think about that and please watch the video and educate yourself.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nOMbfsgZ9s


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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/13/2010 9:13:52 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

There was just a study done on marriage and states that had a law against gay marriage had the highest divorce rates, while states that allowed gay marriage had the lowest.... Here is the data

If you're thinking of the only one I know about, it represents a gross misuse of statistics. Originally reported in the New York Times back in 2004, the "researchers" based their findings on the number of divorces per 1000 population. But that is a meaningless "divorce rate" in this context. By way of illustration, two states might have the same number of divorces per 1000 population, but if one of them has twice as many marriages per 1000 population, then that state's divorce rate as a percentage of marriages is only half what the rate of divorce is in the other state.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/13/2010 9:38:03 PM >

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/14/2010 7:59:35 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

There was just a study done on marriage and states that had a law against gay marriage had the highest divorce rates, while states that allowed gay marriage had the lowest.... Here is the data

If you're thinking of the only one I know about, it represents a gross misuse of statistics. Originally reported in the New York Times back in 2004, the "researchers" based their findings on the number of divorces per 1000 population. But that is a meaningless "divorce rate" in this context. By way of illustration, two states might have the same number of divorces per 1000 population, but if one of them has twice as many marriages per 1000 population, then that state's divorce rate as a percentage of marriages is only half what the rate of divorce is in the other state.

K.




Furthermore, the data doesn't take account of the age distribution within the populations. Children and 80 year olds tend to get married far less often than those in their 20s and 30s.

In addition, there is a notable drop off in the marriage rate for most states from 1990 to the present time. Is that the effect of aging population or just more people living in "sin?" Should someone mention this to the Rev Robertson? Another pact with the devil?

The most disturbing data was that Alaska had three times as many live births as dead deaths (smart ass) The growth of Alaska's population is quite worrisome. Before you know it, they will be crossing our border into the lower 48 and taking jobs Americans don't want. Oh wait! We don't have a border with Alaska. Be afraid, O Canada, be very afraid.

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/14/2010 10:06:59 AM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xXMasterXx

"we the people have unlimited right to contract"....If 2 people decide they are married and they want to make sure that property goes to the other when they die they can...If you ask for a license to get married you are asking for permission....I thought america was the land of the free?....We have inherent constitutional rights...There is a important part in the class on this very subject that tells when and why the first marriage license came to be.


You completely missed the point. Which is what happens when they decide they don't want to be "married" anymore. Who decides who gets what?

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/14/2010 5:37:07 PM   
stella41b


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But then again, coming back to this, I have a funny feeling that the same sex couples issue isn't going to be resolved by any of these religions until they first resolve their issues relating to women. 

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/14/2010 8:31:38 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

But then again, coming back to this, I have a funny feeling that the same sex couples issue isn't going to be resolved by any of these religions until they first resolve their issues relating to women. 


stella,

You probably have a point there. I guess my big problem with the whole thing is that at the bottom of the issue it seems to be about "condoning" homosexuals having sex. All the procreation bullshit in this day and age when so many people are having children outside of marriage, for me, invalidates that argument.

Your comments about religion, its teaching and such are basically the same way I feel about it. You said it way better than I could have though, so there's no point to me trying to put it into words. Much easier to just hop on the coattails of the eloquent way you said it. If you don't mind....

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RE: Why are people afraid of same-sex marriage? - 1/14/2010 10:15:58 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

But then again, coming back to this, I have a funny feeling that the same sex couples issue isn't going to be resolved by any of these religions until they first resolve their issues relating to women.

Would you sketch out for me the connection you're making between "issues relating to women" and "same sex couples," in particular with respect to gay men?

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/14/2010 10:21:09 PM >

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