RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela

RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (Full Version)

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vincentML -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/11/2010 12:36:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarlingSavage I did not know this. However, in "What is Fascism, 1932" it states that: Fascism denies that the majority, by the simple fact that it is a majority, can direct human society; it denies that numbers alone can govern by means of a periodical consultation, and it affirms the immutable, beneficial, and fruitful inequality of mankind, which can never be permanently leveled through the mere operation of a mechanical process such as universal suffrage.... But here they are, Mussolini and Claretta. [image]http://cecaust.com.au/images/mussolini-hanging.jpg[/image] Thank you for the excellent read, DS. It is quite in keeping with the bullying personalities of Mussolini, Hitler, and Stalin, the first two more dramatic and flamboyant, the last quite private but more ruthless toward both his friends and enemies. It also reminds of Lenin's insistence that the dictatorship of the proletariat would be guided by a small and intensely secretive inner cadre. The inter-war period was a time of upheaval in Europe, so I guess it is not surprising that such a philosophy would arise to force an alternative to both democratic capitalism and democratic socialism. None of these men were really socialists in the political sense of the word. They were Statists based upon their own imagined mythology.

NorthernGent -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/11/2010 1:22:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: AnimusRex capitalism was the thing that did it. Assuming Capitalism is/was a form of economic self-expression then it certainly played a fair old role. Together with Protestantism and Humanism these ideas of self-expression enabled people to do a bit for themselves rather than look to the catholic church (dark ages). Mind you - if Capitalism was originally conceived as a grab for self-expression then there's been some sort of perversion of that ideal - buying and selling any old rubbish isn't necessarily self-expression. NG, true, "The Protestant work ethic" is one of the things that helped build the U.S. and you didn't have to be "Protestant" to to use it. Through hard work and reliance on "self" instead of "government" or "the church" people could build a happier more fullfilling life. One only need look at all the "Catholic" countries south of our border to see that. Immigration is "to" what are "Protestant countries." And I'm a "recovering Catholic." In the interests of balance - the Renaissance men were catholic and Italian (well that's where it was most successful) and the merchants were exceptionally well educated and wealthy in their day. But Protestantism enabled Nationalism and the consolidation of resources which that entails.....and that played a fair role in tipping the balance away from Southern Europe and toward Northern Europe. But I would concede that the most successful nations (measured in wealth) since the Renaissance have being the ones that have had a comparatively high level of independence and independent thought.

vincentML -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/11/2010 1:27:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML Just what exactly are we to learn or be warned of by Chavez' action in your estimation, Nothing on a broad scale since Venezuela has very little in its political make up, global policy, worldwide military presence, or domestic agenda, to compare to the US. However it does point to a specific lesson - Nationalization of industry doesn't work. The Chavez regime points to the inefficiency of government bureaucracy; only a government can mismanage oil production and distribution. It didn't work in the US with the nationalization of Chrysler and GM - but I don't believe the lesson was learned or clear for the general public, Congress, or the current Administration. I cannot at the moment argue with any knowledge where Nationalization of Industry has worked. But free Capital has had its short-comings as well. Here is a List of twenty-two bank panics that occurred in the 19th and 20th Centuries mostly in the USA. And banking always seems to rely on government for its ultimate survival. So, is this a matter of a pox on both your houses? I do not see any dark omens for the UK or USA in the devaluation of the Bolivar. As I have stated in a previous post in this thread the USD has already devalued to $0.38 on the 1980 Dollar. We have been getting screwed and not even receiving a thank you kiss. Our working class in particular is being decimated by the inequity of money exchange rates between the USA and China. It is no wonder there is the makings of a populist uprising in these 50 states. Chavez may be, is undoubtedly proving the inefficiency of the delivery of Oil to the USA, although there is much to be said about the effects of the recession and the bust of speculation in the oil markets. On the other hand, his rise to power suggests there was an inefficiency of the distribution of oil revenues to a particular class of people. There is little doubt in my mind that oppression of the indigenous people has been an important factor in the history of the Latino people. Furthermore, when it comes to oil and other natural resources, who owns the stuff if not the people of the Nation? It can hardly be argued with a straight face that Big Oil invested the Capital and know how and therefore should walk away with all the revenues. Saudi Aramco is an example of successful nationalization now that I think of it.

thompsonx -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/12/2010 11:45:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity The biggest question as I see it is, how do you keep power hungry socialist elites from using the treasury and all the power of the central government to effectively buy themselves votes and thereby provide for themselves an ever increasing power base, until they're totally immune from any reproach whatsoever? The biggest question as I see it is, how do you keep power hungry capitalist elites from using the treasury and all the power of the central government to effectively buy themselves votes and thereby provide for themselves an ever increasing power base, until they're totally immune from any reproach whatsoever? HST.

thompsonx -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/12/2010 11:47:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Wait a minute - the United States was also victimized by colonialism... only we quit playing that role, and through the wonders of capitalism propelled ourselves to wealth and total self sufficiency. So now we are self sufficient in oil...then the troops can come home from Iraq. So now we are self sufficient in tungsten...then the troops can come home from Korea. The list is longer but you get the picture. HST.

thompsonx -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/12/2010 11:49:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: AnimusRex quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg I am not aware of anytime where the Monroe Doctrine was dropped. Keeping Foriegn armies out of "Our Hemisphere" has been a goal of US policy for a very long time. Whose side were we on in the Falklands Islands war? Maybe some of the Brits here can answer that. You weren't involved at all. Not so...The U.S. supplied the AWACS for your blokes and without it you would have had got your asses waxed. HST.

thompsonx -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/12/2010 12:15:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML He was idolized by a Mr. A Hitler until all saw the dismal performance of the Italian troops in North Africa. Actually the Italians did quite well in North Africa...Kasarine pass was primarily a Italian fought action. It was in Southeastern Africa that the Britts administered a severe spanking to the wops. HST.

vincentML -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/12/2010 8:28:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML He was idolized by a Mr. A Hitler until all saw the dismal performance of the Italian troops in North Africa. Actually the Italians did quite well in North Africa...Kasarine pass was primarily a Italian fought action. It was in Southeastern Africa that the Britts administered a severe spanking to the wops. HST. The wops? Did you mean the West Ohio Paranormal Society? or perhaps the Doo Wops? I thought we were past the time when racial slurs were used on message boards. Perhaps you have a special license to be a pig. That's Piss Ignorant Git in case you haven't kept up.

luckydawg -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/12/2010 11:11:14 PM)
Yeah he, Mnot, and Domiguy get to use racial slurs with Mod 11's ok. Its just a quirk in here. You will get used to it.

Moonhead -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/13/2010 5:44:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML I cannot at the moment argue with any knowledge where Nationalization of Industry has worked. British Rail? Admittedly, that wasn't a very efficient industry, which was why it needed underwriting by the government, but it worked a lot better than the mess that privatising the railways has brought about. I'm increasingly of the opinion that the shareholders in the companies should pay weregild whenever somebody's killed in a crash.

vincentML -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/13/2010 5:47:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg Yeah he, Mnot, and Domiguy get to use racial slurs with Mod 11's ok. Its just a quirk in here. You will get used to it. Not likely, Dawg, that I will ever get used to thinking of my parents in those terms. In addition, the git knows little about the War. It was Rommel who lead the attack in the Kaserine Pass. And it was the Brit and Yank counter that lead to the surrender of 250,000 Italian/German troops. Not a surprise. Racists are ignorant in my book.

vincentML -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/13/2010 5:58:16 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML I cannot at the moment argue with any knowledge where Nationalization of Industry has worked. British Rail? Admittedly, that wasn't a very efficient industry, which was why it needed underwriting by the government, but it worked a lot better than the mess that privatising the railways has brought about. I'm increasingly of the opinion that the shareholders in the companies should pay weregild whenever somebody's killed in a crash. I could do with a definition of weregild, Moon. I understand the "gild" part but not the "were" As an outside Yank observer it seems to me that nationalizing healthcare has also been successful in some countries. It sure as hell would beat what we have here I think.

Sanity -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/13/2010 6:50:56 AM)
Well hell. If you're feeling so generous why stop at health care. Why not make everything free. Nationalize the farmers and the carpenters and everyone else trying to get ahead and taking those nasty profits. Everythings too expensive, and everythings a right. No? quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML I could do with a definition of weregild, Moon. I understand the "gild" part but not the "were" As an outside Yank observer it seems to me that nationalizing healthcare has also been successful in some countries. It sure as hell would beat what we have here I think.

LadyEllen -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/13/2010 7:51:03 AM)
Weregild (or geld) Vincent, is monetary damages paid to the family of a person killed by the perpetrator of his death. Its one of those aspects of ancient Germanic justice that hasnt survived the ages. The basic idea is that if you killed someone then you and your family would find yourself pursued for vengeance by the victim's family, so weregild functions to satisfy the need to take vengeance and so prevents a cycle of violence that could otherwise span generations. It is made up of two words - gild/geld you know already refers to money (though the compensation could be almost anything demanded - land, slaves, livestock etc). Were means "man", as found in werewolf and as found more displaced in warrior. E

Moonhead -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/13/2010 7:57:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML I cannot at the moment argue with any knowledge where Nationalization of Industry has worked. British Rail? Admittedly, that wasn't a very efficient industry, which was why it needed underwriting by the government, but it worked a lot better than the mess that privatising the railways has brought about. I'm increasingly of the opinion that the shareholders in the companies should pay weregild whenever somebody's killed in a crash. I could do with a definition of weregild, Moon. I understand the "gild" part but not the "were" As an outside Yank observer it seems to me that nationalizing healthcare has also been successful in some countries. It sure as hell would beat what we have here I think. The healthcare's another example, true enough. Nationalised systems of that work very well in Europe and elsewhere. As Lady Ellen says, weregild was a payment made to stop a blood fued. My (rather facetious) point was that as maintenance on the railways has been cut in order to provide dividends for shareholders in the various companies that BR has been split up into, then the shareholders are responsible whenever these cuts result in dead passengers. Given that BR never ran at a profit, even after the Beeching cuts of the '60s, you can appreciate how much the service has been trimmed back since privatisation.

vincentML -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/13/2010 8:04:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Well hell. If you're feeling so generous why stop at health care. Why not make everything free. Nationalize the farmers and the carpenters and everyone else trying to get ahead and taking those nasty profits. Everythings too expensive, and everythings a right. No? quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML I could do with a definition of weregild, Moon. I understand the "gild" part but not the "were" As an outside Yank observer it seems to me that nationalizing healthcare has also been successful in some countries. It sure as hell would beat what we have here I think. Well, whatever works. If a National Healthcare Service can work why shouldn't it be in place? We already have it with Medicare. Oh right, profits. And how is that working out in the States? Works pretty well if you select your client base and discriminate against pre-existing conditions, the impoverished, and the jobless. Works pretty well if you have exemption from anti-trust laws as the Health Insurance Industry does. What kind of treatment would the elderly get if left to for-profit Insurance Companies? And the Companies can be expected to act humanely, right? At least Lawyers do pro bono work. Pretty bad when your industry is beneath Lawyering in reputation. From the tone of your OP, my guess is you buy into all the anti-socialism propaganda. That keep the government out of business unless my industry could use some subsidies crap. Make a case for free farming without major government subsidies in this country. Let's see how far you can run with that. And carpenters? How much work would they have if there were no Federal Income Tax Deduction for Homeowners? Seems like everyone wants a piece of the Federal dollar while they shove the poor to one side. Big Business pigs at the Federal trough. Capitalism without humane components is not a very pretty sight. It is just a license to steal from the taxpayer. And finally, yeah, I think decent healthcare, safety, shelter, food and clean drinking water are basic human rights. We are after all a social community. Doncha just hate that word "social?"

vincentML -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/13/2010 10:31:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead The healthcare's another example, true enough. Nationalised systems of that work very well in Europe and elsewhere. As Lady Ellen says, weregild was a payment made to stop a blood fued. My (rather facetious) point was that as maintenance on the railways has been cut in order to provide dividends for shareholders in the various companies that BR has been split up into, then the shareholders are responsible whenever these cuts result in dead passengers. Given that BR never ran at a profit, even after the Beeching cuts of the '60s, you can appreciate how much the service has been trimmed back since privatisation. Thank you and Lady Ellen for the explanation of weregild. Interesting stuff. Forgive my parochialism but I am embarrassed to say it has been so long since I was in London and used the Underground I was not aware it had been privatized. Now I understand the grumblings I have heard about the system from correspondents in the UK. Sad to say it has been more than four years since I have been away from the States and that was five lovely days in Rome. The damn exchange rate has been a discouragement, and maybe I am getting a bit weary of travel as well. Anyway, thanks again to you both.

thompsonx -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/13/2010 11:15:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 "The Protestant work ethic" is one of the things that helped build the U.S. and you didn't have to be "Protestant" to to use it. Through hard work and reliance on "self" instead of "government" or "the church" people could build a happier more fullfilling life. One only need look at all the "Catholic" countries south of our border to see that. Immigration is "to" what are "Protestant countries." And I'm a "recovering Catholic." That protestant work ethic coupled with slavery built the U.S. Up until relatively recently the U.S. was supported by import/export taxes derived primarily from products produced as a result of slavery. Being a recovering catholic does not prevent you from expressing your ignorance about the immigration demographics of the western hemisphere. HST.

thompsonx -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/13/2010 11:23:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML He was idolized by a Mr. A Hitler until all saw the dismal performance of the Italian troops in North Africa. Actually the Italians did quite well in North Africa...Kasarine pass was primarily a Italian fought action. It was in Southeastern Africa that the Britts administered a severe spanking to the wops. HST. The wops? Did you mean the West Ohio Paranormal Society? or perhaps the Doo Wops? I thought we were past the time when racial slurs were used on message boards. Perhaps you have a special license to be a pig. That's Piss Ignorant Git in case you haven't kept up. I am terribly sorry to have offended you. It is not uncommon for warriors to diminish one another verbaly whilst trying to kill one another. Are you simillarily offended if I refer to nazis as krauts...because if you are I can only suggest the possibilities for my offending you are growing. Might be time to look into that block button. Most of the serious whiners have already done so. HST.

thompsonx -> RE: Hugo Chavez & Venezuela (1/13/2010 11:39:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: luckydawg Yeah he, Mnot, and Domiguy get to use racial slurs with Mod 11's ok. Its just a quirk in here. You will get used to it. Not likely, Dawg, that I will ever get used to thinking of my parents in those terms. In addition, the git knows little about the War. It was Rommel who lead the attack in the Kaserine Pass. And it was the Brit and Yank counter that lead to the surrender of 250,000 Italian/German troops. Not a surprise. Racists are ignorant in my book. Perhaps you need to go back and read a little history. www.answers.com/topic/battle-of-the-kasserine-pass We got our asses kicked in the counter attack also and our losses were about 10,000 vs 2000 for Rommels gang. HST.

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