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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 5:47:36 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		Ladies first.



(runs.... like.... hell.......)


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Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 301
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 5:49:40 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

This banter is hilarious -- but perhaps lost in the humor is an intriguing point.  The definition of "gentleman" is culture-bending, not (just) gender-bending.  The examples being given are all haute-couture, but another direction -- and a concern I've heard raised from femdoms several times, is something more like this: "How can I teach my pet to have more self-confidence in social situations?"

How can you inspire your boy to be a man?  Or, better yet, to be a man of the world?  To yell back in serious jest with the Iraqi Jewish family, and to act chi-chi with the chi-chi-ers.

I have my own ideas, but I think I'll stop for now and see if anyone runs with this.



My instinct would be to say that if you work on the old fashioned haute-couture manners, the confidence is likely to follow. Sometimes I think people lack self-confidence because they aren't sure what to do in a situation; if you give them a framework you take away at least part of the problem.

As for shouting at the Iraqis, as far as I can tell all you need is prolonged exposure-some of the shyest of my brothers' and my friends became the biggest contributors to the silliness after repeated visits.

It's 1.47am here and I have my usual beauty of a four hour lab tomorrow, so I'll be off to bed pretty soon, but I am interested in seeing what others come up with.


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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 6:11:48 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Ah, Xian, where have you been when the women of this forum have needed your wisdom so greatly?


Peon, I wonder if you would be this bratty if you were in arm's reach. Probably huh? ;-)

- LA


Actually, after I met Venatrix in London last November, she came on this forum to report that I'd been 'charming'.  So anyone who thinks I wouldn't be can fuck off.  Bollocks to them.

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 6:15:27 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Ah, Xian, where have you been when the women of this forum have needed your wisdom so greatly?


Peon, I wonder if you would be this bratty if you were in arm's reach. Probably huh? ;-)

- LA


Actually, after I met Venatrix in London last November, she came on this forum to report that I'd been 'charming'.  So anyone who thinks I wouldn't be can fuck off.  Bollocks to them.


Ok sweetie, no need to get your knickers in a twist. I never said you weren't charming. I was having a little fun with you, simply. I don't think that it warranted being told to fuck off.

- LA

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(in reply to PeonForHer)
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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 6:17:12 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		Grrr . . .  LA, I was joking !

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 6:20:27 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Ladies first.

(runs.... like.... hell.......)



Scardy puss ;-)

Ok.. starting from the premise:

quote:

"How can I teach my pet to have more self-confidence in social situations?"


Firstly, I wouldn't call him my pet, but that's just a technicality.

Secondly, this is why I would want to encourage him to develop both the masculine, viril side as well as the gentleman side. The result for me is a gorgeous, self-confident equilibrium.

- LA



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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to RedMagic1)
Profile   Post #: 306
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 6:20:44 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		 . . . As if anyone who said that, and meant it, could ever be considered charming!

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Profile   Post #: 307
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 6:22:53 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I say it all the time and I am charming...

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Profile   Post #: 308
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 6:23:30 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Grrr . . .  LA, I was joking !


I read a book on English mannerisms once which said that the cliche about the English being better than everyone else at spotting irony was a misconception; everybody uses it, the English just use it the entire time...


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Profile   Post #: 309
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 6:27:07 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

I say it all the time and I am charming...


Nonsense.  I refuse to believe that you use such words, Lockit.

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Profile   Post #: 310
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 6:28:12 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Grrr . . .  LA, I was joking !


I read a book on English mannerisms once which said that the cliche about the English being better than everyone else at spotting irony was a misconception; everybody uses it, the English just use it the entire time...



Can you remember - was the author English or American?

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(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 311
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 6:29:36 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

I say it all the time and I am charming...


Nonsense.  I refuse to believe that you use such words, Lockit.


I guess it doesn't count until I say it a certain amount of times a day.

_____________________________

No matter how old a woman gets, some men will think she was born yesterday! ROFL... I love this place!


(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 312
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 6:31:34 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Grrr . . .  LA, I was joking !


I read a book on English mannerisms once which said that the cliche about the English being better than everyone else at spotting irony was a misconception; everybody uses it, the English just use it the entire time...



Can you remember - was the author English or American?


She was an English anthropologist-Somebody Atkinson, I think. It was called 'Watching the English'.


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(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 313
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 6:37:50 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

This banter is hilarious -- but perhaps lost in the humor is an intriguing point.  The definition of "gentleman" is culture-bending, not (just) gender-bending.  The examples being given are all haute-couture, but another direction -- and a concern I've heard raised from femdoms several times, is something more like this: "How can I teach my pet to have more self-confidence in social situations?"

How can you inspire your boy to be a man?  Or, better yet, to be a man of the world?  To yell back in serious jest with the Iraqi Jewish family, and to act chi-chi with the chi-chi-ers.

I have my own ideas, but I think I'll stop for now and see if anyone runs with this.



I think that's the key term: self-confidence.  It's not a sufficient condition for good manners, but it's the necessary one.  Perhaps the remainder of what it takes is just a bit of polish. 

Incidentally, I've just recalled the motto at the beginning of the book of manners and etiquette that my mother left for my brothers and I to find: "Etiquette is about knowing which knife and which fork to use at a formal dinner.  Manners are about making someone feel that it's not at all important if he gets it wrong".



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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 6:41:47 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Grrr . . .  LA, I was joking !


It wasn't obvious and I appreciate you clarifying this.

- LA

PS: You have mail.

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 1/18/2010 6:42:44 PM >

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 6:41:47 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		I thought I remembered the point.  I was given that as a birthday present a few years ago.  Absolutely fascinating.  I couldn't find anything in it that didn't ring true.

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 6:44:14 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline 		Sorry.  I had a strong urge to stop myself from being quite so oily and pompous about manners. 

NB - I was careful to say 'them' and not 'you' in that post!

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(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 317
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 7:10:46 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

I say it all the time and I am charming...


Nonsense.  I refuse to believe that you use such words, Lockit.


I guess it doesn't count until I say it a certain amount of times a day.


Lockit, I don't know if you ever saw the film Magnolia. It's a wonderful film overall, but there is this scene in which there is this woman played by Julianne Moore where she gets very upset and while sobbing some, gets very upset and just curses like a vilain. I remember sitting with a guy friend of mine who in awe said "Oh gosh, I've never seen a woman pull off cursing so absolutely eloquantly before". You must be just like Julianne ;-)

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 1/18/2010 7:11:14 PM >

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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Profile   Post #: 318
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 7:37:12 PM   
InvisibleBlack


Posts: 865
Joined: 7/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

How can you inspire your boy to be a man?  Or, better yet, to be a man of the world? 

I have my own ideas, but I think I'll stop for now and see if anyone runs with this.


There is only one role model to demonstrate what it means to be a man, or beyond that, a man of the world (and I quote):


"Gomez Addams

I learned a lot of things from The Addams Family, and some of the most important involved how to be a man and how to treat a lady. Gomez was the consummate gentleman. Unfailingly polite, never less than courteous, he carried himself proudly and spoke his mind. He kept himself fit, he was always impeccably dressed, and he loved his family with a frightening intensity. Sure, there was the occasional hint of prior atrocities, but what fascinating man doesn’t have a few minor peccadilloes in his mysterious past?

He had an adoring wife, a loving family, and never stooped to being petty, mean or cruel. He took advantage of no one. Never attempted to lie, cheat, steal or deceive. Gomez only became visibly angry when those he loved were endangered and he was fierce in the defense of his family and loved ones. He was confident in his mannerisms and comfortable in his lifestyle and pursuits. He was accepting of others and entirely non-judgemental...

This attitude extends itself towards a general acceptance to pretty much everything. You could never imagine any member of the Addams Family being prejudiced against anyone just because of their color, gender, religious preference, sexual orientation or the current state of their mortality. They accepted anyone that walked in their door, no matter how bizarre or mundane, with delight and glee. And The Addams Family was my first taste of gender equality; not only was Morticia a fully equal part of the household, but she was a better fencer."

What more could you ask for?

“Never go to bed angry, or on fire.”
- Gomez Addams

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 7:44:48 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

And The Addams Family was my first taste of gender equality; not only was Morticia a fully equal part of the household, but she was a better fencer.


Oh and I loved the way he would kiss up Morticia's arm!



- LA

<edited because the first image was a sneaky rascal that wouldn't stay put>

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 1/18/2010 8:36:55 PM >

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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Profile   Post #: 320
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