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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 4:45:00 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

Ah - well, I think there could be a lot of scope for 'forced gentlemanization' in a D/s relationship. For starters, I think there's a lot more agreement about what constitutes a 'gentleman' than what constitutes 'being masculine'. Secondly, I think such gentlemanization happens anyway, amongst vanillas, a lot of the time. ('Stop belching, darling' - yep, we've all heard it or said it.)


You are absolutely right Peon. The thing is, I'm a greedy woman. I want a masculine gentleman, all in one. The knight.

- LA

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 4:45:14 PM   
VaguelyCurious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Hmm.  Enforced attendance at a kind of finishing school for men?  Trouble is, I've never heard of such a school - not here in the UK, anyway. 


I was thinking of something a bit more DIY-I'm a penniless student who really really can't afford any more fees... :P

quote:


My mother had a great little trick when I was a boy.  She inserted two books on manners and etiquette between the dictionaries and encyclopaedias in the bookcase.  She never even mentioned that they were there - she knew that myself and my three brothers could never be forced to read them.  But we all did, eventually - out of fascination. 


The advantage of being a Domme is that such underhanded tricks are unnecessary :-D
Your mum sounds pretty cool, though!

quote:


For subs who are still louts and ruffians, I'd recommend enforced reading of such books on manners and etiquette.


I think we're talking more about ruffians here than louts-you'd have to actually like the sub in the first place...

quote:


Then a written examination.  And a stiff practical one: say, one that earns the highest marks for assiduous maintenance of perfect conduct with the rudest, most unpleasant woman the Domme in question can find.  Heh.  I should be a Domme.


What about ongoing assessment? If they knew the exam was going to end at some point they could just grit their teeth and bear it, which would defeat the whole object, no?


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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 4:48:03 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Hmm.  Enforced attendance at a kind of finishing school for men?  Trouble is, I've never heard of such a school - not here in the UK, anyway. 


I was thinking of something a bit more DIY-I'm a penniless student who really really can't afford any more fees... :P


There are the rubrics in the OP that are very useful. Also there are tons of Websites, like this one for example: http://www.etiquettelessons.com/

My father wasn't as cool as Peon's mother. We would be excused from the table to our room if we even dared put our elbows on the table. Oh I learned etiquette the tough way ;-)

- LA

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 4:50:13 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL:

LadyAngelika, I'm a greedy woman. I want a masculine gentleman, all in one. The knight.

- LA


Now, LA, tut.  As I said earlier, gentlemen only go for ladies, and ladies are never greedy.  And ladies don't argue with gentlemen, either - so please consider any response to this post very carefully.

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 4:53:34 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL:

LadyAngelika, I'm a greedy woman. I want a masculine gentleman, all in one. The knight.

- LA


Now, LA, tut.  As I said earlier, gentlemen only go for ladies, and ladies are never greedy.  And ladies don't argue with gentlemen, either - so please consider any response to this post very carefully.


No.

- LA

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 4:53:50 PM   
VaguelyCurious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
Hmm.  Enforced attendance at a kind of finishing school for men?  Trouble is, I've never heard of such a school - not here in the UK, anyway. 


I was thinking of something a bit more DIY-I'm a penniless student who really really can't afford any more fees... :P


There are the rubrics in the OP that are very useful. Also there are tons of Websites, like this one for example: http://www.etiquettelessons.com/

My father wasn't as cool as Peon's mother. We would be excused from the table to our room if we even dared put our elbows on the table. Oh I learned etiquette the tough way ;-)

- LA


See, I never had that-my family are this impossibly loud bunch of Iraqi jews who would laugh in the face of anyone telling them off about their elbows-as a result, most of the Arabic I know is untranslatably rude (and came from my grandmother!), and even though I was born here I find an awful lot of English table etiquette mistifying-formal university balls are my worst nightmare...


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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 4:55:11 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL:

LadyAngelika, I'm a greedy woman. I want a masculine gentleman, all in one. The knight.

- LA


Now, LA, tut.  As I said earlier, gentlemen only go for ladies, and ladies are never greedy.  And ladies don't argue with gentlemen, either - so please consider any response to this post very carefully.


No.

- LA


Should she be apologizing too? Most ladies are, after all, very feminine...


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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 4:55:55 PM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		I'm really warming to this subject! 

I was thinking of something a bit more DIY-I'm a penniless student who really really can't afford any more fees... :P

There must be plenty of online resources.  Maybe I'll do a search - it'll be even better if there's an online 'gentlemanliness test' - with, say, multi-choice answers.

What about ongoing assessment? If they knew the exam was going to end at some point they could just grit their teeth and bear it, which would defeat the whole object, no?

Aha!  Another inspired thought by myself:  yes, ongoing assessment - and also unseen practical tests.  He doesn't get to know which woman has been sent to be his 'examiner'. 


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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 4:58:43 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
See, I never had that-my family are this impossibly loud bunch of Iraqi jews who would laugh in the face of anyone telling them off about their elbows-as a result, most of the Arabic I know is untranslatably rude (and came from my grandmother!), and even though I was born here I find an awful lot of English table etiquette mistifying-formal university balls are my worst nightmare...



Well I had the reverse. One of my first boyfriends was Italian from a good down home salt of the earth type loud Italian family. They actually would mock my little miss manners table etiquette and then of course, he, the boyfriend would yell at them all in Italian. I was a very traumatized young woman!!!

Today of course, I'm quite adaptable and I can eat French Fries with my fingers ;-)

Because of my work, I have to attend regular formal functions. It would be imperative that any man that accompanied me have at least basic etiquette down pact.

- LA

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Profile   Post #: 289
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 5:01:53 PM   
VaguelyCurious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I'm really warming to this subject! 

I was thinking of something a bit more DIY-I'm a penniless student who really really can't afford any more fees... :P

There must be plenty of online resources.  Maybe I'll do a search - it'll be even better if there's an online 'gentlemanliness test' - with, say, multi-choice answers.

What about ongoing assessment? If they knew the exam was going to end at some point they could just grit their teeth and bear it, which would defeat the whole object, no?

Aha!  Another inspired thought by myself:  yes, ongoing assessment - and also unseen practical tests.  He doesn't get to know which woman has been sent to be his 'examiner'. 



I'm running through the articles Lady Angelika posted at the start-there are a few things in there that I don't quite agree with but they seem pretty comprehensive.

I'm also trying to work out a female equivalent (seeing as how that's my main area...).

I wouldn't want to train a sub to be 'ladylike' in the conventional sense-I suspect etiquette resources on the subject might be a bit outdated and stuffy.

Maybe I should expect them to maintain the same standards as a male sub? Many points in these articles seem to be non-gender-specific, so perhaps I could 'gentlemanize' the ladies too...


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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 5:07:05 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

I wouldn't want to train a sub to be 'ladylike' in the conventional sense-I suspect etiquette resources on the subject might be a bit outdated and stuffy.

Maybe I should expect them to maintain the same standards as a male sub? Many points in these articles seem to be non-gender-specific, so perhaps I could 'gentlemanize' the ladies too...


The thing is that you can totally genderbend all of this if you like depending on your preferences. My kink has boys as boys and girls as girls, but that doesn't mean I don't approve of anything else. Just not for me.

Here is another great resource: http://www.emilypost.com/collegeandbeyond/index.htm

- LA

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 5:09:35 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika


quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
See, I never had that-my family are this impossibly loud bunch of Iraqi jews who would laugh in the face of anyone telling them off about their elbows-as a result, most of the Arabic I know is untranslatably rude (and came from my grandmother!), and even though I was born here I find an awful lot of English table etiquette mistifying-formal university balls are my worst nightmare...



Well I had the reverse. One of my first boyfriends was Italian from a good down home salt of the earth type loud Italian family. They actually would mock my little miss manners table etiquette and then of course, he, the boyfriend would yell at them all in Italian. I was a very traumatized young woman!!!


My sister-in-law had a similar experience-her family are very down-to-earth English; I think she was a bit shocked by the noise, and the way she was mocked for not going back for third helpings of food...

She says she's 'gone native' now, though,, so she coped somehow.

quote:


Today of course, I'm quite adaptable and I can eat French Fries with my fingers ;-)


You mean you don't get chip forks with your chips in Canada?! That's part of the fun-the tines are never quite deep enough, which makes them quite possibly the least useful piece of cutlery ever invented.

quote:


Because of my work, I have to attend regular formal functions. It would be imperative that any man that accompanied me have at least basic etiquette down pact.

- LA


That's the scary bit. I have trouble remembering that I'm not allowed to pour my own water; the guys I normally end up going to formal functions with are quite posh so they have a fit when anyone female goes near the water jug...


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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 5:16:27 PM   
VaguelyCurious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

The thing is that you can totally genderbend all of this if you like depending on your preferences. My kink has boys as boys and girls as girls, but that doesn't mean I don't approve of anything else. Just not for me.


But that's the thing-I don't think it would particularly be genderbending; these ideas seem mainly to be a slightly more extreme version of basic manners; if a woman you didn't know opened a door for you, you might not get that warm happy feeling you get when a man does, but you wouldn't consider it particularly gender-warped, would you? I wouldn't, at least.

quote:


Here is another great resource: http://www.emilypost.com/collegeandbeyond/index.htm

- LA


My flatmate lives for this website :-D
There's a printout of one of the posts from the jobs section on his wall somewhere.


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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 5:16:31 PM   
XaviersXian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Now, LA, tut.  As I said earlier, gentlemen only go for ladies, and ladies are never greedy.  And ladies don't argue with gentlemen, either - so please consider any response to this post very carefully.



 - Such a valid point.

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 5:23:23 PM   
LadyAngelika


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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

The thing is that you can totally genderbend all of this if you like depending on your preferences. My kink has boys as boys and girls as girls, but that doesn't mean I don't approve of anything else. Just not for me.


But that's the thing-I don't think it would particularly be genderbending; these ideas seem mainly to be a slightly more extreme version of basic manners; if a woman you didn't know opened a door for you, you might not get that warm happy feeling you get when a man does, but you wouldn't consider it particularly gender-warped, would you? I wouldn't, at least.


Agreed. And I hold doors open for others all the time.

quote:

quote:


Here is another great resource: http://www.emilypost.com/collegeandbeyond/index.htm

- LA


My flatmate lives for this website :-D
There's a printout of one of the posts from the jobs section on his wall somewhere.


Cool! I saw someone on another forum I participate to refer to it.

- LA



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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 5:26:11 PM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		Ah, Xian, where have you been when the women of this forum have needed your wisdom so greatly?

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 5:27:50 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Ah, Xian, where have you been when the women of this forum have needed your wisdom so greatly?


Peon, I wonder if you would be this bratty if you were in arm's reach. Probably huh? ;-)

- LA

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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 5:38:59 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		This banter is hilarious -- but perhaps lost in the humor is an intriguing point.  The definition of "gentleman" is culture-bending, not (just) gender-bending.  The examples being given are all haute-couture, but another direction -- and a concern I've heard raised from femdoms several times, is something more like this: "How can I teach my pet to have more self-confidence in social situations?"

How can you inspire your boy to be a man?  Or, better yet, to be a man of the world?  To yell back in serious jest with the Iraqi Jewish family, and to act chi-chi with the chi-chi-ers.

I have my own ideas, but I think I'll stop for now and see if anyone runs with this.


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Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
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RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 5:43:44 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

I have my own ideas, but I think I'll stop for now and see if anyone runs with this.


I'd love to hear about your ideas actually!

- LA

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Profile   Post #: 299
RE: Forced Masculinity, Take 2 - 1/18/2010 5:47:35 PM   
LadyAngelika


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quote:

The definition of "gentleman" is culture-bending, not (just) gender-bending.


Funny you should write this because on this rather silly article, they say that "Only a country bumpkin would say, "Bon appétit” at the start of a meal".

I'd add "Or a French Lady" ;-)

- LA

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