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Limits & Compatibility - 1/27/2010 7:48:20 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		This is taken from a post I made on another thread but it has been rattling around in my head recently, simply wondering if the way I approach this is the norm or not. In the end, it won't change my way of doing things (well you never know ;-), but I ask more out of curiosity and with the hope of generating a discussion around this topic.

Ideally, WIITWD is played out within the realm of negotiated limits, right?

I classify hard limits into two categories 1) those that I don't find morally offensive but squick me (blood play, needles, scat) and 2) those that I find morally problematic (re: against the TOS).

When I meet any play partner, the way I say it is here is what I like to do, and here are my hard limits.

If we have the same hard limits, then we have no issues.

If his scope of hard limits goes beyond the ones I find morally problematic, there are really good chances I won't date him. If they go beyond what squick me, there are good chances he may go without this kind of play, and if that is an issue for him, we will probably not get together.

Now if his scope of hard limits is more narrow than mine, he needs to be open to exploring and expanding his hard limits. That is how I see things and I will not limit my play to cater to his limits, though I will be smart about things and ease him into things. Since I'm not *that* extreme, this has rarely been an issue.

So yes, in what I'm saying above, some things might be done "against your will" as you say, which isn't the same as nonconsensually.

Dominants, is this pretty much how you see things? I know it can come across as limiting, that a submissive couldn't help me explore a limit, but I figure I've been doing this long enough that I know which limits won't budge.

Submissives, how do you feel about the above statement?

Switches.... well add whatever you like to the conversation ;-)

- LA

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove
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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/27/2010 7:51:12 PM   
camille65


Posts: 5746
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		All I can say is that my Owner has stretched his limits in regards to me, and I am very glad of that.

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~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).




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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/27/2010 7:58:59 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		First off I don't have different types of limits. I simply have limits...things I absolutely won't do because of my morals, not wanting to go to jail, die, etc...and really those are few and far between. Everything else is just dependent on who I am with.

When I met Him we talked and got to know each other over time even before we met. Just through casual conversations we both came to learn of each other's limits, morals, values, etc...

We learned that our limits pretty much matched up and probably one of the things that attracted us to each other....we're compatible on that level.

I don't ever see anything he does as being against my will since I walked into our relationship knowing full well what was expected of me and what could possibly happen to me..none of them being against my limits..yup, things I may detest, not like...but ya know I suck it up and deal with it.

I'm still there willfully and if ever comes the day he has finally snapped and lost his mind I would willingly leave also.

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/27/2010 8:02:53 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65
All I can say is that my Owner has stretched his limits in regards to me, and I am very glad of that.

That's great. Obviously he had not reached his potential hard limits yet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
We learned that our limits pretty much matched up and probably one of the things that attracted us to each other....we're compatible on that level.

That's what I think. This is definitely the best mix.

But what if they wouldn't have been aligned? I'm just feeling ideas out here... wondering what kind of ideas can out of this. There is no right or wrong answer :-)

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 1/27/2010 8:03:08 PM >

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/27/2010 8:04:21 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		If they hadn't aligned I probably would have learned that pretty quickly in our conversations and probably would have blown him off and not bothered to meet him.

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/27/2010 8:09:51 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		To me, "hard" limits are the ones that are not open to negotiation, that are likely to cause serious physical or emotional damage. For example, one of my previous boyfriends was mildly phobic of needles. He had a dreadful time at the doctor's office if he needed to get a shot or have blood drawn (passed out once, and always felt sick to his stomach and had his heart racing). I helped desensitise him to them a bit, but needle play would have been out of the question. I know of people who have previously or are currently serving in the military who cannot cope with singletails, because the sound is too similar to gunfire. I know a *LOT* of people who have tickling as a limit because it makes them panic or they had seriously negative experiences with it. What you're talking about sounds more like soft limits, where they are open to exploring, but need time and patience and baby steps.

My Master and I have done a few things that I've been scared of or nervous about due to bad experiences with them previously, and are currently working toward a couple of others. I don't consider those to be hard limits, just let him know why I had difficulty with them. I generally avoid broad categories of limits as much as possible.

In my previous relationships with submissives, bottoms, switches, and openminded vanillas, they've usually been pretty openminded. If I wanted to do something they weren't interested in, then exploring or not depended on why they objected to it, and whether or not I could address their concerns. Generally, I've been more focused on reactions than specific kinks, so even working around soft limits wasn't particularly onerous.

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/27/2010 8:16:06 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

What you're talking about sounds more like soft limits, where they are open to exploring, but need time and patience and baby steps.


Actually what I'm talking about is turnig a hard limit into a soft limit and then into not a limit anymore, and yes with baby steps.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/27/2010 8:17:11 PM   
pyroaquatic


Posts: 1535
Joined: 12/4/2006
From: Pyroaquatica
Status: offline 		If I am expected to move a mountain, I would laugh and trod off to find the One who say....

"Here, move all of these small pebbles."

Transcending a limit is a tough thing to do if you cannot find it. Which is why you have to explore the span and depths of your substance to define said limits and push them.

I know I would be able to take a caning for a decent amount of time... or a flogger.

Needleplay-while it freaks me out-is something I could do that would make me feel incredibly vunerable, and all of those yummy feelings that Dominants enjoy and crave.

I would have to build up to things like sounds... ugh... eek squick... and all of those appropriate feelings that I would emanate and Dominants would FEED from......... until I pass out.

my feelings on the matter so far.


_____________________________

You are what your deep, driving desire is.
As your desire is, so is your will.
As your will is, so is your deed.
As your deed is, so is your destiny.
-Brihadaranyaka Upanishad IV.4.5

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/27/2010 8:23:59 PM   
Miyani


Posts: 248
Joined: 12/4/2007
Status: offline 		I would say that, yes, I'm with you in that a boy whose limits are narrower than mine will be expected to expand, slowly and as trust builds, to match me. BUT, this is only true of the limits that squick him, and not the limits he has a moral issue with. If those are absolute no-gos for me, I wouldn't hold him to a different standard.

That said, I spend a lot of time exploring the hard limits that squick me, trying to find out why, and seeing if maybe they can become soft limits with the right person. I don't like to see my boy limiting himself, and I certainly won't limit myself because of an emotional reaction I may be able to fix.

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/27/2010 8:37:34 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		I think that people can re-categorise hard limits as soft ones, especially if it is something they are nervous about but don't have any experience with, or something that went wrong before with a previous partner. People can be very resilient, and I think it's very common for something to go badly in one situation and very well in another. Also, sometimes dominants actively seek out soft limits to push, so if it's really difficult, or they think of it as icky, they might set it as a "hard" limit as a defensive reaction. I also think that the checklist approach to limits encourages people to rule things out by entire categories, instead of being more introspective about *what* exactly bothers them, and why, and how they can approach the activity in a way that minimises their discomfort with it.

Personally, I haven't really used the "hard" and "soft" limit terminology in my previous relationships. Instead, I try to express it in terms of preference, fears, what my objections specifically are, and try to narrow it down as much as I possibly can. For example, I'd *strongly* prefer not to have poo involved in my play in any way, shape, or form. The smell makes me sick to my stomach, it has germs involved, etc. However, when I was going into a submissive relationship, it seemed stupid and silly to make it a "hard" limit when I've changed diapers, cleaned out litterboxes, and mucked out horse stalls. So, I said that I had a limit to it being inside of any orifices or on my face - the former due to disease concerns, the latter because it was likely to make me throw up. Neither my Master nor my previous Dominant was interested in scat at all, so it wasn't an issue, but they appreciated how I thought it out and presented it. I did so similarly for any other areas that I had major concerns or fears about. My limits in general are "Nothing that will cause serious permanent physical or emotional damage, or which will cause problems with my job." The specifics might change a bit over time, but I don't really see how it can realistically be pushed.

In general, I figure he can use just about any toy or technique (physical or verbal) in a way that I will love, hate, or both, depending on how he does it, how warmed up I am, his tone, and lots of other factors. I've seen so many threads where people say, "Ooh, I need to add <nettles, insects, etc.> to my limits list, I wouldn't have thought of that one!" To me, trying to think ahead of time of every possible scenario is absurd, and would take forever! In general, I trust him, and want to do what he wants of me. Sometimes I'll struggle, but that can be hot for both of us, and really expose the vulnerability and my core. It can be very fulfilling and make me feel more submissive to do something I dislike, or have him do something to me that hurts more than I want it to.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 1/27/2010 8:44:34 PM >

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/27/2010 8:48:05 PM   
lucylucy


Posts: 612
Joined: 3/1/2009
Status: offline 		Before our first encounter, we negotiated limits. Once we realized we were compatible as humans (beyond the kink), the concept of limits pretty much disappeared for me. He has limits that restrict what he is willing to make me do. If those change, what I do will change. I can't imagine any scenario in which I would set a limit for him.

_____________________________

“There are those who give with joy, & that joy is their reward.” Gibran / "Those who are willing to be vulnerable move among mysteries." Roethke / "Let the beauty we love be what we do. There are hundreds of ways to kneel & kiss the ground." Rumi

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/27/2010 8:56:38 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		I say get it straight...out in the open...no surprises...make a list… talk and negotiate.

The above is easily said but hard in reality because most of us don’t start a relationship being so open to a stranger we are just getting to know.

BUT it is best to do it in a reasonable time before hurt feelings are involved.

Butch


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/27/2010 9:11:31 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		Limits that are incompatible, hard or soft would be a deal breaker if they were "must haves." If mine as a submissive are more "narrow" than his, but he thinks he is going to "expand" mine and push them to meet his, it isn't going to work. Things that I am very adamant about not wanting in a relationship aren't going to be pushed. I was always very up front about it when I would notice "lives for" and the others "wants" in a list and let them know if one of the items was a "no way, no how, not in this lifetime" type of issue. I do not engage in watersports or toilet play. I'm not "morally" opposed, but it grosses me out. If I had met someone who wanted that and thought that they could by "baby steps" get me into it, they would be unpleasantly mistaken.

I am curious though why you have the belief that you have been doing it long enough to know which of your limits wouldn't change, but you assume that any submissive you got involved with would not be in that same position? I realize the whole "well the dominant makes the decisions" aspect, but really in the end, if something is a "hard" limit for one and a "must have" for the other, it seems only logical that the pair is incompatible. If the pair feels that their attraction to each other is so strong that they want to continue, the "must have" needs to be willing to go without, regardless of which side of the kneel they are on.

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/27/2010 10:03:55 PM   
Reform


Posts: 151
Joined: 1/11/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

What you're talking about sounds more like soft limits, where they are open to exploring, but need time and patience and baby steps.


Actually what I'm talking about is turnig a hard limit into a soft limit and then into not a limit anymore, and yes with baby steps.

- LA


I don't have many hard limits, but they are hard for a reason, and won't be 'eased into' by or for anybody. But, my limits differ depending on the side of the kneel I'm currently on.

Luckily, my boy has the same hard limits as I do, so it's never been a problem. As for things that squick me, I classify those as soft limits, and I look forward to the day when those limits are reached and explored.

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/27/2010 10:12:43 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		(Using fast reply)

I would have to say that isn't how I see things.  Like anyone else, My hard limits are what they are and I'm not willing to engage in any kind of play that goes against them.

With that said, I'm a very sadistic top with a variety of kinky interests.  Very little squicks Me.  I love damn near everything out there that could be considered S/m play.  It's a very rare thing for Me to find anyone who is interested in all of the things that I like to do.  If I find a play partner who is 85% compatible, I figure I'm doing pretty good.

Since I play with multiple people, I'm good with that.  If I have 85% with one person, I just fill in the other 15% with someone else.  Should someone not be ready for needles or any other thing, there's always someone out there who is.


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The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/27/2010 10:55:49 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		I prefer to focus on the areas where we are compatible, and I appreciate that the dominant men in my life do that as well.
Like LadyPact, they will find someone else who will do what I cannot or will not. That way we can spend our time in mutually agreeable ways.
And, yes, there are things I'd be interested in exploring, but it isn't going to happen. I'm okay with that.
It seems to me that discussions about limits fall into the 'glass half full or half empty' category. If someone is going to grouse and complain about the (in my case) less than half empty part, then they will be left with no glass at all.

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"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/27/2010 11:04:03 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

(Using fast reply)

I would have to say that isn't how I see things.  Like anyone else, My hard limits are what they are and I'm not willing to engage in any kind of play that goes against them.

With that said, I'm a very sadistic top with a variety of kinky interests.  Very little squicks Me.  I love damn near everything out there that could be considered S/m play.  It's a very rare thing for Me to find anyone who is interested in all of the things that I like to do.  If I find a play partner who is 85% compatible, I figure I'm doing pretty good.

Since I play with multiple people, I'm good with that.  If I have 85% with one person, I just fill in the other 15% with someone else.  Should someone not be ready for needles or any other thing, there's always someone out there who is.



I think this might be one of those things where being poly certainly can make limits a more fluid kind of thing. After all, like you said, if something is a hard limit for clip, and a "must" or "really want" for you, because you are poly, you can seek that out with someone else because, I assume, clip meets so much of your needs, there is no need to push.

I don't think I would ever myself go poly, but I do see where it can really help someone get 100% of their desires met.

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/27/2010 11:14:52 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		It is more about the relationship for me than the limits that either of us may have... of course there are limits to that view too...

When I meet someone new I get to know them  before I get to know the rest of the story, not a list of limits. I figure there are things I will find out through conversing with them as to where their moral compass is pointing. As far as I know I have never been with a sex criminal or an adulterer.. so I must be doing something right with my screening process.. there are few other things that are lifestyle related that I could find morally reprehensible...


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/27/2010 11:22:14 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		What's more important to me than discussing limits, is getting to know his character.  Is he the kind of person who would keep me from harm or put me in its way?  How does he treat others?  What are his beliefs?  What is his moral make-up?  Who is he, as a person?  That will pretty much tell me if he's going to order me to do something I don't think I could do.

My owner asked me what I thought of limits (before he was my owner) and if I had any.  I said there are things I'd rather not do ever again, but I would not list them as limits.  When he asked what they were and I told him, he said he actually had no interest in doing those things, so it was a non-issue. 

We got to know each other to see if we were compatible as humans - dominant human and submissive human - and if we were, if our moral codes were aligned (which they did), we proceeded in developing a relationship.


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RE: Limits & Compatibility - 1/28/2010 12:44:54 AM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline 		In a world where Hitler almost ruled, people kill in the name of race or religion and they had to pass laws to keep us from screwing our offspring, I pretty much have to adjust the way I look at the wording in your post. “Hard limits” are not truly “hard” and in time your limits (preferences) may change due to personal growth and environmental exposure. That includes all the worst things that may be illegal or immoral at this time, in this country . . . because somewhere, at sometime, those things were not socially immoral. That’s why we have laws against those things . . . because people did those things at one time.

. . . so I don’t have “hard limits” but, I have personal preferences based on my past and current environmental exposure.

With that in mind, I see your post ask if we also expect our submissives to obey and conform to our preferential choices.

Yes I do.

Also, if their choice is to obey my edict above their own previous personal preferences, it could'nt possibly be against their will since their will is to obey.

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I give good thread.

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