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RE: City condems house for only using solar - 2/1/2010 3:36:04 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

as long as this lady wasn't posing a health threat or being a determent to others

Theft isn't a detriment to others?

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RE: City condems house for only using solar - 2/1/2010 3:37:50 PM

MrMister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

as long as this lady wasn't posing a health threat or being a determent to others

Theft isn't a detriment to others?

Which would be a criminal offense, not something to condemn someones home over. Surely, you see the difference?

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RE: City condems house for only using solar - 2/1/2010 3:39:27 PM

Musicmystery

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In this case, they overlap---the condition of the electric system, propped up by the theft, is still the issue.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 2/1/2010 3:40:12 PM >

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RE: City condems house for only using solar - 2/1/2010 3:40:34 PM

pahunkboy

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OMG- require a heat system? I know plenty in LA that do not have one. This is AZ. Require a colling system- now THAT IS ONEROUS.

You do NOT need a cooling system!

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RE: City condems house for only using solar - 2/1/2010 3:42:11 PM

Musicmystery

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I'd be the first to agree that better built houses would need less or even no cooling/heating.

This doesn't qualify as such a better built home.

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RE: City condems house for only using solar - 2/1/2010 3:42:36 PM

pahunkboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

In this case, they overlap---the condition of the electric system, propped up by the theft, is still the issue.

Layoff triggers financial woes Stevens was laid off as a risk compliance officer for Wells Fargo Bank in January 2009. She has been working as a security guard for Trident Security Services, making $200 a week, since November, she said./snip

Once the TARP take effect I am sure the matter will be cleared up in a jiffy.

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RE: City condems house for only using solar - 2/1/2010 3:50:43 PM

MrMister

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In regards to building permits being on the up and up and the reason why I believe what I do, I will re-post a few things here and add a few to hopefully relay where I'm coming from when I proclaim building permits are only about power and money.
I (a general contractor for many a year now) used to believe that generally speaking, permits, building codes and the like are geared towards eliminating liability as it concerns 'public safety' issues that may effect the governing body who has jurisdiction over code enforcement in whatever local. If there were ever a problem that comes up later on down the road (building collapse, toxic contamination, etc), then the governing body (state, county, city, etc) would be the first in line for liability and legal action against. Particularly if some one was injured or killed from a structure that was not code compliant.

I have since found out otherwise from first-hand experience with such matters. Permits are about money and power, nothing more. Fact is governments are NEVER held liable for their incompetence, negligence, or outright criminal acts. Have a look at the following link if you will;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity#In_the_United_States

Sovereign immunity originally applied to kings, then to the federal government, then it was extended to state governments, and now it de facto applies to all government. The local code enforcement agency WON'T be held liable, even after they have taken their bribes/permit fees and made a big show of walking around and hassling the contractor or homeowner or the family dog if no other sentient being is available. Permits are about money and power, nothing more. The #1 reason to require a permit is to get that improvement/new home/property listed on the property tax rolls, where it becomes a source of perpetual loot to the local criminal syndicate.

I have had numerous personal experiences with this subject matter, but cannot provide the links folk would need here to effectively believe what my findings are. Hence, look at the Hyatt Regency walkway collapse as a fine example of such. A mezzanine/elevated walkway collapsed, killing 114 and seriously injuring over 200 others.

The local code inspector took 45 minutes to inspect a 40-story buillding after taking tens of thousands of dollars in bribes permit fees. The roof of the atrium had collapsed during construction; no red flags for the building inspector, just more bribes fees. The walkway was so grossly underdesigned, thanks to an unapproved design change duly noted on the documents presented to the Kansas City building inspector's office, that it literally shook when you walked on it. Construction workers pushing wheelbarrows full of concrete refused to use it and went the long way around. The building inspector found no problems. Over 100 people died.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_Regency_walkway_collapse#Aftermath

Quote: The Missouri Board of Architects, Professional Engineers, and Land Surveyors convicted the engineers employed by Jack D. Gillum and Associates who had signed off on the final drawings of gross negligence, misconduct, and unprofessional conduct in the practice of engineering; they all lost their engineering licenses in the states of Missouri and Texas and their membership to ASCE.[9] While Jack D. Gillum and Associates itself was cleared of criminal negligence, it was stripped of its license to be an engineering firm.[10]

At least $140 million was awarded to victims and their families in both judgments and settlements in subsequent civil lawsuits; a large amount of this money came from Crown Center Corporation, a wholly owned subsidiary of Hallmark Cards which was the owner of the actual hotel franchise (like most hoteliers, Hyatt runs on the franchisor/franchisee system). Life and health insurance companies probably absorbed even larger uncompensated losses in policy payouts.

Notice anything there about the city code enforcer being sued? About permit fees being returned? About any consequence whatsoever for the thieves who took thousands and thousands of dollars for a completely bogus claim of safety?

Of course not. The private party engineers got hammered, and there is some justice in that. But the government swine who added grief but not value, who took so much and gave nothing at all in return, they didn't even have to spend an uncomfortable hour in a witness chair being interrogated by an attorney. They never had to worry about losing their life savings or their livelihood. Thieves don't ever have to say that they are sorry.

And this is only one of many, many instances.

< Message edited by MrMister -- 2/1/2010 4:07:20 PM >

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RE: City condems house for only using solar - 2/1/2010 3:55:25 PM

MrMister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

In this case, they overlap---the condition of the electric system, propped up by the theft, is still the issue.

But we would only be assuming the electrical system was compromised and thus was a safety concern for the neighbors. I can say for fact that I have done something similar one more than one occasion when I had lost power for over three weeks due to and ice storm. I was able to hook up a generator to the service entrance wire and hence run electricity through various circuits in the house, and I might add, done in such a fashion that is posed no threat to anyone working on the power lines in the area. So, it is barely possible something similar occurred here, and the integrity of the power system was not compromised.

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RE: City condems house for only using solar - 2/1/2010 3:57:48 PM

zephyroftheNorth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

any score of helium 3 from the moon would be totally tax free

Cheap and easy to acquire and transport too.

All you need is lots and lots of fuel to get there and back....

Hi Master,

Well no, you use batteries to fly there and....ummm....helium to fly back...yeah that's right, that's the ticket!

zeph

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RE: City condems house for only using solar - 2/1/2010 4:03:01 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrMister

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

In this case, they overlap---the condition of the electric system, propped up by the theft, is still the issue.

But we would only be assuming the electrical system was compromised and thus was a safety concern for the neighbors. I can say for fact that I have done something similar one more than one occasion when I had lost power for over three weeks due to and ice storm. I was able to hook up a generator to the service entrance wire and hence run electricity through various circuits in the house, and I might add, done in such a fashion that is posed no threat to anyone working on the power lines in the area. So, it is barely possible something similar occurred here, and the integrity of the power system was not compromised.

Look, let's start at the beginning.

You started a thread called "City condems house for only using solar." It's not the reason--the reason was insufficient power, regardless of type, no heating system--the house was nowhere near code. Period. Solar is not at all the issue.

If you want to start a codes thread, OK. But what happened here is no surprise. The theft is just icing.

I'm not up on this stuff, though I have a lot of contractor friends. Doing it right and legally just isn't that hard.

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RE: City condems house for only using solar - 2/1/2010 4:13:28 PM

MrMister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrMister

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

In this case, they overlap---the condition of the electric system, propped up by the theft, is still the issue.

But we would only be assuming the electrical system was compromised and thus was a safety concern for the neighbors. I can say for fact that I have done something similar one more than one occasion when I had lost power for over three weeks due to and ice storm. I was able to hook up a generator to the service entrance wire and hence run electricity through various circuits in the house, and I might add, done in such a fashion that is posed no threat to anyone working on the power lines in the area. So, it is barely possible something similar occurred here, and the integrity of the power system was not compromised.

Look, let's start at the beginning.

You started a thread called "City condems house for only using solar." It's not the reason--the reason was insufficient power, regardless of type, no heating system--the house was nowhere near code. Period. Solar is not at all the issue.

If you want to start a codes thread, OK. But what happened here is no surprise. The theft is just icing.

I'm not up on this stuff, though I have a lot of contractor friends. Doing it right and legally just isn't that hard.

My point in posting this thread was in regards to our governments ability to encroach upon the rights of each and every one of us, and how the vast majority are seemingly programmed to accept this as "oh, that's just the way it is, and what can we do about it anyway". Fact is, no one really cares about such stuff until it effects them personally. By then, it may very well be too late to do anything about it, other than piss and moan. As I said previously, hopefully there will be a few folks who take the benefit of learning from others mistakes. That's all I hope for anyway.

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RE: City condems house for only using solar - 2/1/2010 4:17:41 PM

Musicmystery

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Well, I'm with you there...sort of.

When I moved here, the utility company said we had to pay a surcharge for them to put in new poles along the road. Guess who I called? The government. A little time with the Public Service Commission, half a dozen phone calls from utility and government people, and the VP was on the phone to me explaining how all this was just a misunderstanding.

When a contractor demanded payment for work he hadn't completed as promised, the town clerk called and threatened me with code violations--the contractor was a relative. I called my lawyer. He said offer them fair payment for what they've done, and let them scream. I did. They screamed. And three days later, they called, all nice, and said they'd decided to accept the payment.

Bullshit all the way around. But this knee-jerk government oppression stuff gets tiring.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 2/1/2010 4:21:27 PM >

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RE: City condems house for only using solar - 2/1/2010 4:29:19 PM

MrMister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Well, I'm with you there...sort of.

When I moved here, the utility company said we had to pay a surcharge for them to put in new poles along the road. Guess who I called? The government. A little time with the Public Service Commission, half a dozen phone calls from utility and government people, and the VP was on the phone to me explaining how all this was just a misunderstanding.

When a contractor demanded payment for work he hadn't completed as promised, the town clerk called and threatened me with code violations--the contractor was a relative. I called my lawyer. He said offer them fair payment for what they've done, and let them scream. I did. They screamed. And three days later, they called, all nice, and said they'd decided to accept the payment.

Bullshit all the way around. But this knee-jerk government oppression stuff gets tiring.

I'm glad you were able to successfully resolve those issues. But it truly is amazing isn't it how the rules of the game are subject to change?

Yes, the government oppression stuff does get VERY tiresome, but I for one simply don't relish the idea of living in tyranny. Which appears to be where we are heading based upon what we are able to read and learn every single day, if only we listen, or are willing to be open-minded enough to weigh the evidence we have to work with as typical everyday Americans.

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RE: City condems house for only using solar - 2/1/2010 4:38:42 PM

Tenire

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in AZ, cooling can be optional, due to the non-humidity of the environment. (Yes, the whole "dry heat" thing is for real.) In SE TX, where I am, AC is considered a necessity, and while they won't condemn your home over it, YOU can use it as a basis to keep from cutting your Electricity during the summer months.

@MRMISTER Are you going to tell me that the NFPA Articles that many municipal building codes are based upon are money making rackets? I'm a Journeyman Electrician, working on my Master, so I need to know these things. I'm sure we can find some pictures from an Occupational Safety website to demonstrate how dangerous ill-managed electrical systems can be.

On the flip of that statement, I have to agree that they(Municipalities and Authorities) DO remove their own liability by placing it upon the Contractor, Inspector, and (most recently) the individual Craftsmen the do the work. However, due to the nonexistence and/or nonadherence of previous generations in previous years to these building codes, that's somewhat putting the cart before the horse. This is in my own Municipality, only, as I can't speak for other places, but I have no doubt it's the same.

@ALL The long and the short of this is, those codes and ordinances and permits that you feel are the government putting their hands in our pockets are INTENDED to be for the safety and well being of the people. I for one am glad that they are in place, even though I feel like the inspectors that are enforcing these codes need to be educated a bit more, and perhaps given a few happy pills. YES, some of the INSPECTORS out there ARE crooked, and they are milking contractors and homeowners for money. However I don't believe this is the rule, but the exception.

Unfortunately, this woman got caught trying to circumvent the system. I'm fairly sure she was aware of the rules and regs for solar power in her area, as well as the bldg codes. Also unfortunate, it looks like she was doing just fine, and taking care of business, until she lost her job. I can identify with this, being laid off myself.

I'd live off grid if I could. I'm sure there are things I could do to accomplish this, too, but I don't own any land as of yet. Regardless, there are ways it CAN be done without getting in legal trouble. The gov't is perfectly fine with it AND depending on how much energy you produce, you can even SELL IT TO THE UTILITY PROVIDER.

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RE: City condems house for only using solar - 2/1/2010 4:46:37 PM

Tenire

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I just ranted, I think... I'm very sorry for that.

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RE: City condems house for only using solar - 2/1/2010 4:50:53 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrMister

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Well, I'm with you there...sort of.

When I moved here, the utility company said we had to pay a surcharge for them to put in new poles along the road. Guess who I called? The government. A little time with the Public Service Commission, half a dozen phone calls from utility and government people, and the VP was on the phone to me explaining how all this was just a misunderstanding.

When a contractor demanded payment for work he hadn't completed as promised, the town clerk called and threatened me with code violations--the contractor was a relative. I called my lawyer. He said offer them fair payment for what they've done, and let them scream. I did. They screamed. And three days later, they called, all nice, and said they'd decided to accept the payment.

Bullshit all the way around. But this knee-jerk government oppression stuff gets tiring.

I'm glad you were able to successfully resolve those issues. But it truly is amazing isn't it how the rules of the game are subject to change?

Yes, the government oppression stuff does get VERY tiresome, but I for one simply don't relish the idea of living in tyranny. Which appears to be where we are heading based upon what we are able to read and learn every single day, if only we listen, or are willing to be open-minded enough to weigh the evidence we have to work with as typical everyday Americans.

Except that in the first example the government was riding the white horse.

I had a similar experience when a credit card company overcharged the interest rate. After six months of arguing, I called my Senator, who called the Comptroller of the Currency--and ALL my interest was refunded for six months, including what I actually did owe them.

Easy to demonize. Not the case in all practice.

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RE: City condems house for only using solar - 2/1/2010 4:52:11 PM

MrMister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tenire

@MRMISTER Are you going to tell me that the NFPA Articles that many municipal building codes are based upon are money making rackets? I'm a Journeyman Electrician, working on my Master, so I need to know these things. I'm sure we can find some pictures from an Occupational Safety website to demonstrate how dangerous ill-managed electrical systems can be.

On the flip of that statement, I have to agree that they(Municipalities and Authorities) DO remove their own liability by placing it upon the Contractor, Inspector, and (most recently) the individual Craftsmen the do the work. However, due to the nonexistence and/or nonadherence of previous generations in previous years to these building codes, that's somewhat putting the cart before the horse. This is in my own Municipality, only, as I can't speak for other places, but I have no doubt it's the same.

@ALL The long and the short of this is, those codes and ordinances and permits that you feel are the government putting their hands in our pockets are INTENDED to be for the safety and well being of the people. I for one am glad that they are in place, even though I feel like the inspectors that are enforcing these codes need to be educated a bit more, and perhaps given a few happy pills. YES, some of the INSPECTORS out there ARE crooked, and they are milking contractors and homeowners for money. However I don't believe this is the rule, but the exception.

Yes, I too am glad the codes are in place, as they serve to minimize or eliminate shoddy practices, and provide those who are producing the ability to build safer structures. But my point regarding these building codes/enforcement was the rotten way they conduct their business.

Building codes can be circumvented by getting a professional licensed engineer to sign off on the plans that indicate the structure, electrical, plumbing system, or whatever else in question, meets or exceeds the codes in place within what ever jurisdiction. I agree that it is appropriate for the engineers to be held responsible. But if they are responsible, what is the role of the building inspector? If he bears no responsibility whatsoever for the safety of the building, why is he there? Why must he be paid?

It gets even better (worse). In the Kansas City Hyatt disaster, the original design for the walkway support did not meet the requirements of the Kansas City building code. It was only about 60% of the required strength. After the field change to the design, which essentially doubled the stress on the 4th story joints, the design was only 30% as strong as required.

So the Kansas City building inspector was there all the time, demanding money and getting paid, demanding that drawings be submitted and getting them. Drawings that they either did not evaluate or were incompetent to do so. These are the cold hard facts.

So where is the justice in punishing the engineers while doing nothing to the people who approved and inspected their designs? Who promulgated and published design rules that they were unwilling or unable to enforce, but who took money for their "services" anyway?

There is no justice. There is simply theft, and dead bodies of innocent people. That's what comes from government. And was one of the reasons behind me posting this thread in the first place.

Peace

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RE: City condems house for only using solar - 2/1/2010 4:57:18 PM

camille65

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Personally I'm happy to live in a building that had to pass codes. I sleep better at night knowing that the wiring wasn't done by someone who doesn't know electricity, that my plumbing has to be up to a certain standard.

I don't see that as the government overstepping, not to say they don't do that but I sure disagree in this case.

The woman in the article was stealing power. Her solar addition wasn't useful. I don't know enough about the story (do we ever?) to carry it further unless I go into the realm of creative posturing in regards to her house/life. I do believe that children need to be raised in a home that is secure and where they can safely keep food. If an competent adult wants to live without that and if it causes no rebounding health effect on neighbors that is fine by me.

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RE: City condems house for only using solar - 2/1/2010 5:06:10 PM

Tenire

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I can't speak for KCK, KCMo, AZ or anywhere else, but here where I am, inspectors ARE held accountable. They can do prison time now, if something they inspected and passed fails, due to some detail they didn't catch. Houston's trying to clean up all that stuff.
(poor sonsabitches can't even accept a bottle of water or a cup of coffee on a jobsite nowadays)

PEOPLE make up the government. If it is corrupt, it's because the PEOPLE involved are corrupt.

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RE: City condems house for only using solar - 2/1/2010 5:15:13 PM

Tenire

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@camille Agreed. Just ask any plumber and he'll tell you how important his codes are to the health and safety of buildings and people. Likewise for an electrician and the NEC. How big is "green energy" like solar and wind, out there in ATX? I would think it was pretty popular, given the "Weird" population. (My friend's mom still has one of those tie-dyed shirts)

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