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RE: Control of emotions, and how long has it taken for ... - 2/22/2010 8:25:40 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		NZ, one of the elements I seek *is* him expressing those feelings both verbally and in the way he acts, though! The specific phrasing isn't as important - heck, synonyms are good. I've been in a couple of relationships in which I was in love, and in others where I loved the other person deeply, but didn't feel that sense of connection, quite that level of passion. It's difficult for me to keep being vulnerable, to keep expressing my feelings, when he doesn't reciprocate, and that has caused me to pull back a little, even though I still adore him.

chellekitty, I agree that there are a lot of different ways of expressing love, including verbal. It's not the only important one, or even usually the most important to me, but I do feel the lack if it doesn't come into play at all. In this case, it's not just that he hasn't said those words, but that he has expressed that he *doesn't know* exactly how he feels, whether or not he loves me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thaprincess
For me, I need to hear my sub say he loves me as well as see it with his actions. An ex of mine, showed his love to me but when it came to saying it, he could never utter the words. And yes actions speak louder than words, but for me I need to have my cake and eat it too. I want it all, actions and words. But that's just me.

Thank you for expressing this better than I was able to!

LL, I am glad you were able to be there for your neighbor. I would try to say more about how deeply your post touched me, but the coffee hasn't quite kicked in yet, and I just don't have the words...

TopChuck, thank you for your post, it's given me a lot to mull over.

I'm spending the night with my Master tonight, and several of the posts have given me a lot of food for thought. It's been a couple of weeks since I last brought this up, so I hope I can express a bit better what I need, and I will try not to get pushy or impatient. I've decided there's no huge hurry to resolve this one way or the other, although I *am* still worried/concerned about it, and I definitely don't want to come across as giving an ultimatum or anything of that sort.

OriginallyfromLA, I *still* love all but two of my ex-boyfriends - some of the passion has faded, and for whatever reason, we decided that things wouldn't work out. In most of them, it was just down to logistics problems. They moved out of state for work, or were working nights while I was on a day shift, or we were *both* working full time and carrying a full course load, and just didn't feel we had the time or energy to devote to the relationship. Yes, some people make it work, even when they never see each other, but we both wanted more contact than that. I'm still in touch with most of them, and almost all of them would *still* help me if I needed it, and I would do so for them. Obviously, since I'm in a relationship, I won't act on those feelings in any way that would make my Master uncomfortable, but they still have a little piece of my heart.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 2/22/2010 8:32:08 AM >

(in reply to OriginallyFromLA)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Control of emotions, and how long has it taken for ... - 2/22/2010 1:09:21 PM   
petmonkey


Posts: 1053
Joined: 7/7/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
Maybe tis just me...perhaps I am one of those oddball male dominants; I have no problem telling a submissive that I love them.


ZX4500 says it a lot. In fact, He's told me that (possibly) more than all my previous partners combined, there's been moments where We've reversed stereotypical gender roles because He's being so mushy and i'm the one who can't say it.  my last Domme, on the other hand, never said it.  Sir doesn't seem to give a rat's tail about having an "aloof image" though, while She was the sort of person that kept Her cards very close to Her chest. In my experience, gender had nothing to do with it.
OP, i didn't read all posts.
With my old Domme i had to really focus on how Her actions expressed the idea rather than keep myself up at night worrying about why She didn't say She loved me.  Sometimes they were little pieces to a big puzzle, but they were there. Are they there? Have you seen them?  As my Domme, Her man and i got to know each other, We had to figure each other out in that respect, there were clues and hints and direct discussions about how We each expressed different levels of love as it grew between Us.  Have these conversations if you can, even if it doesn't produce a consensus about how each of you should or need to express such things, you'll come away a little wiser for having had them. 
With my Domme and Her man, it grew quite calmly and steadily over several months and with Sir it was . . not first sight really, but first speak.
"YOU!" he said. For whatever reason, i was toast, right there as He pointed at me.  Sounds completely ridiculous; but it's the truth.

no edit, guess what my cat is doing? Get off the keyboard, Lump.


< Message edited by petmonkey -- 2/22/2010 1:19:24 PM >

_____________________________

Be excellent to each other.


(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Control of emotions, and how long has it taken for ... - 2/22/2010 4:48:23 PM   
TopChuck


Posts: 36
Joined: 1/1/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Andulsite said in part:  It's difficult for me to keep being vulnerable, to keep expressing my feelings, when he doesn't reciprocate, and that has caused me to pull back a little, even though I still adore him.


That's a great word I wanted to use in my post to you and didn't.  Fit it in someplace(s), please.

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Control of emotions, and how long has it taken for ... - 2/22/2010 6:18:22 PM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		TopChuck, we had our conversation, and I did mention that aspect, as well as the "love languages" thing. I guess I'm a bit greedy - I want at least a little of each! Anyway, we've decided to mull things over and talk again about it in a month or so, and generally give things some time. I appreciate the feedback I've had on the thread. I felt it helped me express what I need and why more effectively. He's busy with some things, and I already did some house cleaning, so he allowed me to pop online for a bit.

monkey, it's hard for me to tell from the outside whether a wonderful action is coming from a place of love, compared to caring, respect, and so forth. He's definitely patient and caring, and he often indulges me if I ask for something. Of course, sometimes the answer is no, or later, or "I'll take that into consideration," or a compromise that works for both of us. In any case, he strongly encourages me to express my needs and desires. After all, he can't read my mind, either.

agirl, I know a lot of couples who love each other, *and* are happy. Perhaps I take being understood too much for granted, but it's never really been an issue in my relationships. My first D/s relationship started when I was 20, and I haven't had a vanilla one since. All of the men I've dated have been supportive and understanding, even the two who things wound up going wrong between us (we had other problems, but not that).

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 2/22/2010 6:28:21 PM >

(in reply to TopChuck)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Control of emotions, and how long has it taken for ... - 2/22/2010 7:37:31 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OriginallyFromLA

Damn straigt.
What people think is love is the same endorphin high that causes sub-drop. Sure you can care for someone and not want harm to come to them, but love is a myth. What people have is other people that keep their brain producing that endorphin buzz and when they lose them they go through withdrawl. AKA heart break.


You are of course free to believe whatever you want, but love is not a "myth." Do many people mistake a feeling they have for "love" when it is something else, like lust? Of course. But that doesn't make love a myth. What you describe with endorphins is lust, and sexual arousal, and really nothing at all to do with love. Because when you are truly feeling love for someone (whether you utter the words or not), it is not something that goes away when you are done playing. It is a feeling that stays with you for every moment of your day.

I honestly feel sad for people who think that love is a myth or that it really doesn't exist. It means that you will miss out on such an amazing part of life.

(in reply to OriginallyFromLA)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Control of emotions, and how long has it taken for ... - 2/22/2010 8:01:04 PM   
Smutmonger


Posts: 995
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		Living things are ever changing. They grow and die depending on how they are fed. Emotions are no different.

(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Control of emotions, and how long has it taken for ... - 2/23/2010 7:20:21 PM   
TopChuck


Posts: 36
Joined: 1/1/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
You are of course free to believe whatever you want, but love is not a "myth." Do many people mistake a feeling they have for "love" when it is something else, like lust? Of course. But that doesn't make love a myth. What you describe with endorphins is lust, and sexual arousal, and really nothing at all to do with love. Because when you are truly feeling love for someone (whether you utter the words or not), it is not something that goes away when you are done playing. It is a feeling that stays with you for every moment of your day.

I honestly feel sad for people who think that love is a myth or that it really doesn't exist. It means that you will miss out on such an amazing part of life.


Although the responses haven't been confirmed as "love", fMRI has shown reactions in the brain, when people thought about those they claimed to love (romantically).  It's also possible that the release of endorphins accompanies emotions that are "love".

Incidentally, different areas respond for men and women.  Women responded more generally in both brain halves and men more specifically in only the emotional side of the brain.

< Message edited by TopChuck -- 2/23/2010 7:22:03 PM >

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Control of emotions, and how long has it taken for ... - 2/24/2010 8:19:30 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		Smutmonger, I'm not sure what you're getting at there. Would you mind clarifying?

(in reply to TopChuck)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Control of emotions, and how long has it taken for ... - 2/24/2010 12:55:27 PM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline 		I think the ‘high’ on endorphins type of in-loveness only lasts relatively shortly and perhaps later in bursts. It would be unrealistic to expect this euphoria to last forever… too consuming… it would be an obsession, not healthy and very unrealistic also, as absolutely everybody has awful aspects about them…
And that is exactly the challenge; to deal with all the shite and still be able to stick it out together…
to see stone cold sober that you are sharing your live with a warty farty idiot and that you are not much better yourself and then just get on with it, that is what works for us anyway.

People who supposedly love each other like my Husband and me, do not constantly feel this ‘love’ thing at all, we just get on with daily life and even annoy each other at times, so what that is concerned love IS a myth…
I missed it enormously when he stopped being in-love with me before I stopped being in-love with him.
I liked the rush very much, so when it stopped it made me angry and I thought he was boring and spoiling things… and I was confused why he was still with me since the passion seemed to have disappeared…
We had many a fruitless argument about it, but that never changed a thing… I had to accept the change.
Luckily I have discovered the rush can resurface at times… for me at least.

What I have seen in people who split up after a long(ish) relationship is not that they suffer ‘withdrawal symptoms’ … it is not always a broken heart either, usually there is a big dose of disappointment mixed with anger and fright and guilt and difficulties to break routines and adjust to a different life.

Andalusite, you said:
"I'm still in touch with most of them, and almost all of them would *still* help me if I needed it, and I would do so for them. Obviously, since I'm in a relationship, I won't act on those feelings in any way that would make my Master uncomfortable, but they still have a little piece of my heart."

Most people have exes and some detest their ex but they still might be called upon to help out and many exes manage to be civil to one another
Exes might be (sometimes unwanted) roaming around in your memories, however imo they should NOT hold a piece of your heart… you say you still love them… does that mean that you are not over them? … you have to be careful talking like that to a man you say ‘I love you’ to…

How would you feel if your Master told you that another woman holds a piece of his heart?
So I advice you to NOT inform your Master about the exes holding pieces of your heart, certainly not if you want him to tell you that he loves you, you have to be smarter.

Also if one of the exes would ever call upon you for help… if I were you… I would first asses how much my help was really needed and then ask my Master if I was even allowed to help before running to the rescue… and until any cry for help is actually heard there is no need to even dwell on it…
In my experience most men do NOT like competition of other males not even hypothetically… and especially not when they are ex-lovers, but your man might be more acceptant?

I don’t think the question is about how long it takes for love to develop or why he doesn't know how he feels about you… (if he knows about all the pieces of your heart it might simply be self preservation)
If you make this issue into a tug of war… like I am not going to say I love you (so often anymore) until you say (at least once) that you love me too I think you are going about it the wrong way entirely.

The question is: do you think you really love him? And do you know for sure you want to be with him? And if the answers to these are totally yes, well, then you set about making him feel the same way about you.
Totally go for it… if he is your Master, as you state, then he deserves your best, not whatever piece there is left, or what you decide to share with him.
(you can… just for yourself, put a time limit on things though…. self preservation for you too)

It is good he is obviously already showing an interest in you, being your Master, so you just have to ‘work’ it a bit.
That you are not happy with him not knowing how he feels about you is not something you should talk about, because I don’t see how that is going to achieve what you want… rather the opposite… you’ll get his back up and stale mate is the term that comes to mind, better strategies are favoured.
Talk about other things… find out what makes him tick… what rocks his boat… have fun, make him laugh, feed him good food, kiss his feet, get under his skin…  do his ironing, be interesting,
I think your focus should be on getting to know him so you can please (read seduce) him rather than being ‘vulnerable’ and expecting him to respond in the ‘right’ way to your vulnerability.

You should have more fun with it maybe... learn the art of manipulation
without the bad association or losing yourself, BE the woman he needs
and then you might be vulnerable because he will want to keep you safe

The whole idea that you are going to talk about it later, in a months time or so I find a bit weird… is that going to be like a relationship update? Something like: lets asses where we are right now?
Will you use some kind of score card or luv-o-meter?  Will you have another update a month after that?
Is he going to attempt to say “I love you” at each of these meetings?

Of course what ever works for you is good and everybody is different but it would not be my cup of tea at all these ‘relationship up-date dates’
I’d rather spend the time taking a spanking for being difficult about the ‘love you’ issue.

What a rambling letter… I hope it is of any use to you.
 

< Message edited by ranja -- 2/24/2010 12:57:39 PM >

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Control of emotions, and how long has it taken for ... - 2/24/2010 1:11:23 PM   
Smutmonger


Posts: 995
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline 		You can't expect people to never change-even if the real change is only in how you come to see how they really are-rather than how you want them to be.

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Control of emotions, and how long has it taken for ... - 2/24/2010 1:14:17 PM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline 		It was about 7 or 7.5 years into our dynamic that he told me he loved me. I had those feelings very early on and expressed them but I was in his service a very long time before he told me that. His behavior towards me made me "feel" loved many years before he used the words.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
( from http://www.collarchat.com/m_2999540/mpage_6/key_/tm.htm#3010212 )
I don't find the gender imbalance odd at all. Is it really a coincidence that in most classic BDSM tales, the Dominants are exactly like you are describing? Cold, aloof, impassive. Sir Stephan takes O's love and worship stoically, even to the point of her branding herself (and in one version of the book, killing herself) all the while never professing his love for her.
This aspect of Dominance, being totally in control of one's own feelings and emotions is for many of us, the most satisfying aspect.

Sometimes I treat Kim impassively, taking her, using her (yes, we even use those words with each other- instead of "lovemaking" we call it "taking") and yet she knows that I love her deeply.


I realise that many people are in D/s relationships that are more service-oriented or casual. In your current and previous romantic relationships that also involved D/s and/or kink, how long has it taken to discover whether or not you love your partner? Have you felt that you needed to control your feelings and emotions, or does expressing them come easily?

In my last relationship as a submissive for 3 years, my Dominant was very caring, affectionate, respectful, and so forth. In addition to the hot play, he invited me along for holidays and special occasions with his parents and other relatives, we hung out with his friends, went on dates, and all that stuff. However, he said straight out that he didn't love me and wasn't in love with me. We broke up over it, but got back together a few months later. Soon after that, he did say he loved me a few times, or more often just traced a heart on my skin. I don't want to get into too much detail about my current relationship, but he's also not very verbally demonstrative, even though he's very affectionate in other ways. This hasn't been an issue in most of my previous relationships, with men who weren't dominant, so after reading the quote from AnimusRex, I was curious if there was a link.


_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Control of emotions, and how long has it taken for ... - 2/24/2010 4:02:05 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		FR-

For most people, yes that really hot, rip each other's clothes off passion simmers down with time. But being "in love" isn't all about *that* feeling alone. It's all the feelings together. It's accepting that he farts in bed and snores, and knowing how to tuck the blankets to keep the stink at bay or how to gently stroke his face to quiet the snores. It's knowing that when you come home from an exceedingly bad day, they are there, and when they hold you in their arms, the stress melts away. Those kinds of things aren't of the rip your clothes off variety, but it doesn't make them less relevant. After all, that hot passion in the beginning isn't really love, it is more lust. I believe that "comfortable" with each other point we reach is one of the best parts of being in love. I don't want someone who still thinks that because I'm a girl, I won't ever stink up the bathroom or scratch myself. I want someone that can accept all the parts that are me, not just when I'm all made up, dressed up and looking my hottest.

So it isn't that love or in love is a myth, or caused by endorphins. As ranja said, having that super rush of endorphins constantly would be exhausting. I would be interested to know what the brain scans showed on people when asked about things that simply made them happy and serene. I have a feeling the results would be similar. But I think the "myth" is believing that love doesn't exist, that it is simply a matter of chemicals in the brain or that rush of endorphins. It is a lot more than that. It's looking at that "warty farty idiot" who is annoying the crap out of you and knowing there is still no one else on this planet that you would want to annoy the crap out of you.

(in reply to BeingChewsie)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Control of emotions, and how long has it taken for ... - 2/24/2010 8:16:11 PM   
DarlingSavage


Posts: 2808
Joined: 9/18/2009
Status: offline 		I haven't read this whole thing, so I'm just going to speak for myself, which tends to be the best way to do things, anyway. For me, I have to have that physical attraction there. And for me, that includes, but is not limited to, the person's appearance, the sound of their voice, the stuff that they say and the way they say it, their level of intelligence, and there has to be chemistry. I can't have it any other way. Put all those things together and you have me running around wanting to do everything that person tells me to. If any one of those things aren't in place, I couldn't care less. You might as well be a rock in the middle of the road. Well, I'll be nice, since I will still acknowledge you as a human being, but I'm really not going to be interested.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Control of emotions, and how long has it taken for ... - 2/25/2010 7:17:59 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline 		Someone was laughing at Osf's profile on another thread, and his first journal entry seems to sum up what I am worried about, although my Master is nothing like Osf. "I can like, appreciate even respect the woman I owned, it is just that I cant feel a romantic love toward her."

It seems like a lot of men separate caring, liking, respect, and so forth from love, and it's hard to tell them apart from the outside.

ranja, of course I wouldn't do a favor for them without checking with my Master first. I always check in before agreeing to any commitments or going somewhere out of the ordinary. Sometimes he wants to come along, or has other plans for me for that evening. My exboyfriends are no more a threat to him than the "best friends" I had when I was in elementary and junior high school take away from how I feel about my closest female friend now. If I didn't still feel anything toward them, I'd question how real the emotions were in the first place. I don't want a poly relationship with all of them, it was a response to the person who said that when a relationship breaks up, the feelings are just endorphins which leave quickly.

We don't have a formally scheduled meeting, but I have asked him to let me know if the way he feels changes. I do love him, I do want to be with him, but I wouldn't be happy with things the way they are currently over the long term. I'm not nagging him about it, and having a general timeframe for checking in about it helps me set it aside so I'm not tempted to keep bringing it up. I do almost all of the things you mention - a couple of them don't apply. If he isn't capable of feeling that way toward me, or toward anyone else, then trying to change that won't work, no matter what I do, or how hard I try to be what he wants.

LafayetteLady, I'm more focused on love, rather than the endorphin rush of "being in love." Like you say, that includes taking some of the bad with the good.

(in reply to DarlingSavage)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Control of emotions, and how long has it taken for ... - 2/25/2010 1:57:34 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andalusite

LafayetteLady, I'm more focused on love, rather than the endorphin rush of "being in love." Like you say, that includes taking some of the bad with the good.


That's my point entirely. Love/being in love is not the endorphin rush. It is when even though you know their bad habits, quirks or whatever, you don't care, and they don't matter. I remember when things started to go south with my ex husband, and I would tell the story years later that when the big things go wrong, the little things bug the crap out of you when they didn't before.

I find it interesting that among so many on these boards the thought of love is bad. It kind of makes me wonder if part of their "interests" in BDSM is because they find the concept of not loving their partner more acceptable here. Saying that it is a "myth" or meaningless is like saying all emotions are non existent or meaningless. Sadness, happiness, anger, etc all then do not exist. You then have a stunted existence because you are denying yourself the best of life. Not because you don't simply feel love, but the best of life is feeling all emotions. I would never want to have built such a wall around myself to keep me from having to deal with emotions and I'm really a very stoic person, only those close to me ever see the true depth of my more intense emotions.

I would never want to go through life that way. I find those that do to be very sad really, and amusing at the same time. After all, they think they are making a rational decision because they are so guarded they can't even admit to themselves the reality of not letting themselves feel their emotions.

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 95
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