Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (Full Version)

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Mercnbeth -> Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/3/2010 10:23:29 AM)

"You don't go buying a boat when you can barely pay your mortgage. You don't blow a bunch of cash on Vegas when you're trying to save for college." ~ President Obama

I just returned from four days in Vegas. I stayed in the best room a non-gambler could get at the Encore. It was going for 1/3 of what it was at the exact same time last year. The shows were 1/2 full. At 11pm on a Saturday night you can make it from the Encore to the Mandolin Bay in 15 minutes; it would have been 10 if the Miss America pageant 'crowd' wasn't letting out. The shops were empty. Two hotel towers of the Sahara are closed. You can buy a condo at the massive, and beautiful, 'New City' complex for 10% of its original market price. You'd still be foolish to so so, because after 1 year your CAM will be proportionate to the property owners and 100 owners in building model designed for 1500 means that you may get a $2 Million condo for $200k but be prepared to pay $100k/month in CAM.

Vegas is capitalism. It's dying. Vegas has gone from being the #1 destination for construction workers to having one of the highest city unemployment rates in the country. The President decided in a speech given in NH to use it as an example of where not to go.

Forget for a moment that the entire speech was yet another example of the President believing that he and his government know better what to do, and where to spend the money you earn than you do. The US boat industry is already just about gone, but be assured they too got another bullet shot at them by the reference.

President Obama is the de facto CEO of the umbrella corporation known as the USA. As any CEO, when he speaks regardless of the audience or the market he's addressing, he must appreciate the impact of his words on the entire corporate entity.

Why do these faux pas seem to always occur at town hall meetings? Is it possible that it's a function of the President being off TelePrompter? Is he really as smart as those who voted for him thought he was?

It was only one year ago that the Vegas collapse started as a result of this comment:"You can't go take that trip to Las Vegas or go down to the Super Bowl on taxpayers' dime,"In another life, I organized conventions for my employer, the now defunct Security Pacific Bank. We ran a convention every year in Vegas as at cost of about $500k for 1500 employees of all ranks. My guess is they spent a minimum of $200-300 each in Vegas. All that money came from private sectors and went to private sectors. It paid hotels and their employees, as well as for all the other service personnel such as taxis, waiters, bellmen, strippers, and club bouncers. They ALL paid taxes adding to the local, State, and Federal revenue stream. With the CEO telling you not to go, no 'President' of a corporate entity would ever put him or herself in the cross-hairs of potential public scrutiny and ridicule. They won't be going to Vegas. Vegas will continue to die. Is the President incapable of appreciating that situation?

Frankly Vegas, and all the other convention spots are a great place to go on the taxpayers' dime. The money spent goes into the pockets of local private individuals, companies, and ultimately comes back in again as taxable earnings. Encouraging a successful entity, corporate or individual, to go to Vegas is a path to increasing tax revenue. The major problem with the economy is that most successful entities are afraid to spend and/or invest. The reason is there is no confidence that this administration knows what they are doing or has projected out the consequences of their actions, and rhetoric to date.

As it's the second occurrence of this reference; either the President has no understanding of how the private sector works, or is insensitive to it believing in confidence that he and his administration know better how each individual and corporation should spend their money. Either choice results in zero growth, business closings, contraction in the market, and increased unemployment.

There is only one growth sector in the economy - public employees. Every one added increases the problem. It requires more taxation to pay the bill, accelerating the deterioration of the economy.

The era of big government has returned with a vengeance, in the form of the largest federal work force in modern history.

The Obama administration says the government will grow to 2.15 million employees this year, topping 2 million for the first time since President Clinton declared that "the era of big government is over" and joined forces with a Republican-led Congress in the 1990s to pare back the federal work force.

Most of the increases are on the civilian side, which will grow by 153,000 workers, to 1.43 million people, in fiscal 2010.


The cost of these burocrates does two things. It adds to the cost of government and need for increased tax revenue; it perpetrates the exact problem that the bureaucracy was set up to solve. In this economy, the combination of those situations also adds to those needing the services. Unless you are a Federal, State, or Local public employee your job is in jeopardy.

To those who advocated against the bail out of corporate entities, do you support the bail out of public entities? They are only operating now because, unlike the private sector failures, the public sector can always count on more taxes, more printing of money. You didn't want your money going to corporate entities and there was a lot of fuss made about the perks, bonuses, and abuses of corporate executives. Do you believe the 'good intent' propaganda rhetoric? Is it because, unlike the corporations, when scrutiny is places on the public employee 'executives' they trot out the posters of 'starving children', homeless war veterans, and struggling one parent families? Whenever there is talk of cuts, the focus is never on the government duplicity, mismanagement, or failed attempts of social engineering. Instead it's always the firemen and police put on the front lines.

Bottom line is - even in this economy those bureaucratic 'executives' may not be going to Vegas - but they are still going...
Although the climate summit in Copenhagen took place in December, it has recently emerged that the large congressional delegation headed by Nancy Pelosi charged taxpayers some $1 million for the trip.

Newly filed congressional expense reports indicated that more than 150 people-including legislators, staff and even some family members-made the trip at a cost of $2,200 a day, CBS News reported.

Further CBS investigation found that 59 House and Senate staff flew commercial to the Danish capital, costing taxpayers $408,064, while the rest used three military jets, which cost $168,351 for the flight time


Leading by example doesn't seem to be a function of this Administration.
"You don't go buying a boat when you can barely pay your mortgage. You don't blow a bunch of cash on Vegas when you're trying to save for college." ~ President Obama
No - but obviously there's no problem when elected officials, their entourage, and burocrates travel to Copenhagen on the backs of the taxpayers and with revenue going, not to a struggling US city and its citizens, but out of the USA; to pay tribute to a fraudulent, religious hypothesis.

Is the President incapable of appreciating the power of his words or the image conveyed by him, his Administration, and the leaders of failing corporate entity trading as the USA?




Musicmystery -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/3/2010 10:31:04 AM)

You frequently bring up Vegas.

It's a gambling town, an industry extremely sensitive to economic downturns. It's expensive entertainment, not durable goods.

Using it as an illustration for the nation buries your arguments. No, that's not a dismissal or a refutation--just that the same points you're getting at under that cloud would be far more credible with better illustrations. No point in sifting through all that from the starting point of a poor example--it would just continue to cloud the conversation.





philosophy -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/3/2010 10:37:35 AM)

Ah, but be fair MM. Vegas is, as Merc says, capitalism. It's an excellent example of it. It's not about creating anything of value per se. It's all about the bottom line and screw every other possible measure of success.
So, given Merc's demonstrable desire to see a society based on purely capitalist vaues, it's fair for him to use it as his example.
However, in merc's own words, Vegas is dying. So by extension, we can suggest that Merc's ideal of capitalism is dying. It's failing....(you all know where i'm going with this)....so my question to Merc is.......if the best example of capitalism is failing, why try to keep it alive. Apparently it's nonsensical to reward failure right?




Mercnbeth -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/3/2010 10:41:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You frequently bring up Vegas.

It's a gambling town, an industry extremely sensitive to economic downturns. It's expensive entertainment, not durable goods.

Using it as an illustration for the nation buries your arguments. No, that's not a dismissal or a refutation--just that the same points you're getting at under that cloud would be far more credible with better illustrations. No point in sifting through all that from the starting point of a poor example--it would just continue to cloud the conversation.
Fact is - I didn't bring it up, the President did - AGAIN, as a negative reference. Before this latest Presidential recommendation many of the locals we know were saying they have yet to recover from last year's Presidential Vega tourism speech. I happen to have been there as recently as Monday and am able to provide a personal account of what it is like for the city and its citizens.

Point to any city or industry in the USA where it's not happening or the underlying facts regarding the President, the administration, and growing bureaucracy are NOT accurate reflections of my recent first hand experience.

Without any contrary examples your dismissal of the argument is a weak attempt to point to it as an exception. If it is - there should be a virtual limitless pool of examples to the contrary.





Musicmystery -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/3/2010 10:43:57 AM)

As I said, just noting the common ill-suited example. A poor choice for Obama too, agreed.

"Just prove me wrong" inverts the burden of proof, which is on the person making the claim.

But fair enough, the President did in fact bring it up.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/3/2010 10:48:23 AM)

quote:

Merc is.......if the best example of capitalism is failing, why try to keep it alive. Apparently it's nonsensical to reward failure right?
Agreed, if Vegas fails, it's investors, or private industry can't succeed it should be allowed to fail.

Apparently President Obama sees it the same way and, as with many on that side of the argument, view Vegas as a Capitalist bastion. I'm glad you recognize at point I thought too difficult for many to appreciate. There has never been any Administration so focused on eliminating private sector growth, capitalism, and self determination for personal wealth. Vegas does represent a target of opportunity; Obama has used it twice. His words indicate he sees Vegas and what it represents as an 'enemy'. To me it also points to where his alliances reside. Is it also that clear to you? If it is - I've accomplished more than I expected by this post.

My confusion is why you and others would are happy to reward a failing government and burocrates who use the public resources to insure their personal capitalist lives go on and have greater perks and rewards.




tazzygirl -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/3/2010 10:49:21 AM)

Tourism is always the first "industry" hit during a downturn in the economy. People tighten their belts. Restaurants, gambling, movies... pretty much everything considered "entertainment" (other than strip clubs and bars) feel the pinch. Vegas had many good years, now, they are feeling that pinch again. Im sure Alantic City and other such places are doing equally as well.. or bad.




philosophy -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/3/2010 10:56:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


My confusion is why you and others would are happy to reward a failing government and burocrates who use the public resources to insure their personal capitalist lives go on and have greater perks and rewards.



...because, when it comes to Government, i don't see it as just another corporation. i understand how this concept is tricky for you. Because, at its core, it's not pure capitalism.
i also don't buy into your assumptions on a large range of issues. i guess that's because, as someone who considers the mixed economy the best situation, that classes me as a communist in US terms. Although, by the standards of the rest of the world and the freaking dictionary, that just means i'm a social democrat. Somewhat left of centre, but thats it.




subtee -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/3/2010 10:58:08 AM)

My god he's so powerful! Even when stating what should be quite obvious and responsible to adults:

"You don't go buying a boat when you can barely pay your mortgage. You don't blow a bunch of cash on Vegas when you're trying to save for college." ~ President Obama

And yet it is those words and not adults' very own common sense which has doomed the poor boats and Vegas industries.





Jeffff -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/3/2010 11:01:17 AM)

Personal responsibility is only for liberals. Conservatives want the President to make everything ok for all business...:)


Jeff




Mercnbeth -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/3/2010 11:02:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

As I said, just noting the common ill-suited example. A poor choice for Obama too, agreed.

"Just prove me wrong" inverts the burden of proof, which is on the person making the claim.

But fair enough, the President did in fact bring it up.

Sorry MM - I'll continue to apply it as a perfect example because either off the top of my head, or searching references, I could not find one example of private sector growth.

I only consider facts representing where I've been or where I live. Currently I live in CA pragmatically bankrupt and, after implementing the highest tax increase in the history of the USA, revenues fell dramatically resulting in another looming budget crises. For the first time in its history more employers and employees left the State than relocated to it. At the city level, LA can't pay for its entitlement programs and is increasing fees and cutting 1000's of employees. Further down the food chain, my building landlord is considering bankruptcy due to office vacancies. Across the street a huge mall has a 35% store vacancy. From second hand sources, relatives living in other CA cities say there are no jobs, no industries growing, and more businesses closing.

I could go on to less reliable 2nd person accounts, business sources, vendors; there isn't one exception to the condition I describe existing in Vegas.

I'll be doing a lot of traveling in the upcoming months and I'll be happy to provide more first hand examples, good or bad, throughout the country. Meanwhile, since I take you point that Vegas provides a poor example of positive effects of this Administration's economy policy and rhetoric, how about providing one contradictory example?




Mercnbeth -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/3/2010 11:10:13 AM)

quote:

Government, i don't see it as just another corporation. i understand how this concept is tricky for you. Because, at its core, it's not pure capitalism.


Well philo, therein is your problem. You may not see government as "just another corporation" but the people working in, and running it, do; and treat it as such. They count on you and others to believe the government is there to serve you. Their actions indicate a reality that, in perfect alignment with corporate executives and bureaucratic executive have the same selfish agenda. They must - because when traveling or when using their expense account credit card, they both enjoy first class amenities and private jets.

Government is the purist form of capitalism living under the Utopian capitalist condition of being able to charge their customer-citizens whatever they like while at the same time, printing their own currency. The most capitalistic company can only look on in envy.




Musicmystery -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/3/2010 11:11:24 AM)

quote:

I could not find one example of private sector growth.


I'm wondering how GDP rose.

Certainly no one's doing any business.

Perhaps your research skills need honing.


http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/national/gdp/gdpnewsrelease.htm

"The increase in real GDP in the fourth quarter primarily reflected positive contributions from
private inventory investment, exports, and personal consumption expenditures (PCE). Imports, which
are a subtraction in the calculation of GDP, increased.

"The acceleration in real GDP in the fourth quarter primarily reflected an acceleration in private
inventory investment, a deceleration in imports, and an upturn in nonresidential fixed investment that
were partly offset by decelerations in federal government spending and in PCE."

Seems I told you a few months back that inventories were low and businesses would have to start increasing them as sales depleted existing stock. An idea you ridiculed, taking the position it was silly to expect any further demand.




tazzygirl -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/3/2010 11:16:11 AM)

Im sorry, but your question really bothers me. You wish for a positive effect of this administrations economic policies when the main policy has been to keep the economy from going under.

But, if you need a list of the industries that typically thrive during a recession, Forbes has a good clue...

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/stocks/08/industries-thrive-on-recession.asp




Mercnbeth -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/3/2010 11:16:13 AM)

quote:

Personal responsibility is only for liberals.
It is? Why then the desire for government provided entitlements? Are all those conservative ideals?

I've never seen one "liberal" blame themselves or take personal responsibility or accountability for that matter. Whether their child's failure in school, their failure to make their mortgage payment, or their inability to purchase health insurance; it's never their fault. Fortunately for them, their government bureaucratic executives agree with them because it perpetrates their existence. They enable and seek to increase, the occurrences of failure. Personal responsibility? That's for fools who believe in their own ability and not someone indoctrinated to believe they aren't responsible for their situation or need to suffer the consequences for their actions.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/3/2010 11:17:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

I could not find one example of private sector growth.

I'm wondering how GDP rose.
Certainly no one's doing any business.
Perhaps your research skills need honing.

The stock market it up too! When I pointed that out to the people in Vegas and those in business; we both laughed.




Musicmystery -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/3/2010 11:18:55 AM)

What nonsense.

Did a national poll of liberals, did you?

btw, see previous post---edited to add link.




Jeffff -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/3/2010 11:24:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Personal responsibility is only for liberals.
It is? Why then the desire for government provided entitlements? Are all those conservative ideals?

I've never seen one "liberal" blame themselves or take personal responsibility or accountability for that matter. Whether their child's failure in school, their failure to make their mortgage payment, or their inability to purchase health insurance; it's never their fault. Fortunately for them, their government bureaucratic executives agree with them because it perpetrates their existence. They enable and seek to increase, the occurrences of failure. Personal responsibility? That's for fools who believe in their own ability and not someone indoctrinated to believe they aren't responsible for their situation or need to suffer the consequences for their actions.



You need to get out more. That may be the single most ridiculous post I have ever read here.


Jeff




Musicmystery -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/3/2010 11:24:22 AM)

quote:

Perhaps your research skills need honing.


http://www.bea.gov/newsreleases/national/gdp/gdpnewsrelease.htm

"The increase in real GDP in the fourth quarter primarily reflected positive contributions from
private inventory investment, exports, and personal consumption expenditures (PCE). Imports, which
are a subtraction in the calculation of GDP, increased.

"The acceleration in real GDP in the fourth quarter primarily reflected an acceleration in private
inventory investment, a deceleration in imports, and an upturn in nonresidential fixed investment that
were partly offset by decelerations in federal government spending and in PCE."

Seems I told you a few months back that inventories were low and businesses would have to start increasing them as sales depleted existing stock. An idea you ridiculed, taking the position it was silly to expect any further demand.


quote:

The stock market it up too! When I pointed that out to the people in Vegas and those in business; we both laughed.

Seems their economic analysis skills are lacking. Perhaps that's why business isn't so good for them.

Or maybe they should think more, laugh less.







servantforuse -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/3/2010 11:29:57 AM)

I think that Obama is being a tad bit hypocritical here. He is lecturing a New Hampshire audience on spending money they don't have ? Give me a break.




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