RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (Full Version)

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Mercnbeth -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 2:52:50 PM)

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....then you'll be able to clearly demonstrate a further dip in the Vegas tourist trade, linked to the comment. Facts and figures please, no anecdotal evidence. If you are unable to do so, then your thesis is clearly wrong.
As if this is a place to defend a thesis.

Besides the thesis is much more elementary and is "anecdotal" in its nature. A President responsible for a country's economy doesn't denigrate one city in that county - Obama did.

The above statement is the thesis in its entirety.
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Hell, in times of economic problems, i view Vegas, Atlantic City, Laughlin... any of them as an excess, and a potential to have a harming effect on the public.
Even the public who live and work there huh? There are a lot more people working outside the casinos than inside. But that public deserves the President's pointed comments per you - because you agree with him that Vegas is not a place to to go and has a "harming effect on the public", adding to your previous representation that the morals of the city, even though based upon an advertising campaign, don't meet your standards to "give a damn". Yet you point to me as the one without concern for an individual's economic hardship...yeah right!
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just what i WOULD expect from the sitting President during these times.
As stated from the beginning, I respect your opinion if not you based upon your ancillary comments.

I expect a sitting President to support the economy of the entire county and not point to one City with negativity that has in the past, affected the location of industry conventions. You expect less - I appreciate that.




philosophy -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 3:14:32 PM)

Nice duck Merc. If the presidents comments had the effect you claim then you'd have made a valid thesis. It seems clear you have no intention of backing up that thesis with any facts. A pity.

A pragmatist with no interest in concrete facts, just opinions. Odd.




tazzygirl -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 3:17:33 PM)

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Even the public who live and work there huh? There are a lot more people working outside the casinos than inside. But that public deserves the President's pointed comments per you - because you agree with him that Vegas is not a place to to go and has a "harming effect on the public", adding to your previous representation that the morals of the city, even though based upon an advertising campaign, don't meet your standards to "give a damn". Yet you point to me as the one without concern for an individual's economic hardship...yeah right!


Here is a hint... we are ALL experiencing hardships... except you of course. Taking a practical approach to financial problems is not "not giving a damn". I feel for them as i do for the auto industry now out of business, the retail industry that is being hit hard too. But i will not go there to gamble to help them out. Sorry, that isnt fiscally sound, and for the President to point that out is not a bad thing.

You dont wish to acknowledge that because it would make your initial complaint sound like whining.. which it was. Let the CEO's with the huge bonuses go support them. I can barely support myself. I dont have a 20 room house costing 2 million.

But, as Master also pointed out, Pennsylvania has casinos... a new one built in Pittsburgh opened up last August. Ohio just got the nod for casinos. More states are opening their own, and have been for many years. Did Vegas actually believe this would not hurt their own business, on all levels? I pass the casino on the way to work. They have a tally board on the outside showing their payouts to date. 30 million was the last i saw. I can assure you, as you very well know, they took in much more than that. Talked to one lady who used to go to Vegas once a year... she wont be this year... our casino is in her back yard, why bother with the hotel and tourists.. was her comment.

So while you play.. lets persecute Obama today... the reality is there are MANY factors affecting Vegas' income.. for everyone there. I can feel sorry for them all day long... i wont support them with my money. Vegas was built for gambling. Every industry there is built around gambling, even if they are not directly involved in that industry. Adapt or go out of business. We all have problems. And if you want to blame anyone for this mess... the whole mess... not JUST Vegas'... your looking to the wrong administration.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 3:34:17 PM)

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Nice duck Merc. If the presidents comments had the effect you claim then you'd have made a valid thesis. It seems clear you have no intention of backing up that thesis with any facts. A pity.

A pragmatist with no interest in concrete facts, just opinions. Odd.

Thats a big pile of bullshit Philo. My intent and focus has been clear from the start and only difficult for those bringing another agenda to the table. What's yours?

Nowhere in this entire thread did I point to economic indicators. This is about leadership. You want to start a tread about economics - do so.

Pragmatism applies to the condition that any leader does not denigrate any part of which he leads. Feel free to disagree with that thesis pointing to successful leaders who have done so concerning the economics of the entity they lead.

The "pity" for you is - I won't play your game.

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But, as Master also pointed out, Pennsylvania has casions... a new one built in Pittsburgh opened up last August
Which "Master" is this, and what relevance is it to the subject matter? Obama named Vegas. My points and questions aren't about Vegas - but about a President who leads a county and uses a city in that county as a negative reference. If he named any city, or any industry specifically, it doesn't change the nature of the issue.

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Here is a hint... we are ALL experiencing hardships... except you of course.
As if you would know? Really tazzy -talk about assuming too much. Not whining regardless of my situation has always been my nature. Seeing every negative occurrence as an opportunity has generated my success; however, I know, have experienced, and will again experience hardship. Don't apply your need and desire for attention and self pity, evidenced by this whining quote; "I can barely support myself. I dont have a 20 room house costing 2 million." on me. Your inability to better yourself and your current situation is a product of your efforts, as is mine and, on-topic, as is Vegas. However only in one case did the President feel a need to identify them in a manner which does not help and conveys a negative image.

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if you want to blame anyone for this mess... the whole mess... not JUST Vegas'... your looking to the wrong administration.
Though-out this discussion, only you seek to assign blame. I assign accountability and leadership to the President that you are uncomfortable doing.

How telling it is that not one direct response to my comments. Only more irrelevance about casinos in your neighborhood and a "lady". What has that got to do with the topic of a President pointing to a city within his county to avoid?




tazzygirl -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 3:47:36 PM)

Lets go back to your original post.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

"You don't go buying a boat when you can barely pay your mortgage. You don't blow a bunch of cash on Vegas when you're trying to save for college." ~ President Obama

I just returned from four days in Vegas. I stayed in the best room a non-gambler could get at the Encore. It was going for 1/3 of what it was at the exact same time last year. The shows were 1/2 full. At 11pm on a Saturday night you can make it from the Encore to the Mandolin Bay in 15 minutes; it would have been 10 if the Miss America pageant 'crowd' wasn't letting out. The shops were empty. Two hotel towers of the Sahara are closed. You can buy a condo at the massive, and beautiful, 'New City' complex for 10% of its original market price. You'd still be foolish to so so, because after 1 year your CAM will be proportionate to the property owners and 100 owners in building model designed for 1500 means that you may get a $2 Million condo for $200k but be prepared to pay $100k/month in CAM.



Your visit and Your friends are just as relevant as the lady i spoke too. NOT to mention, there is only so many people who are going to gamble. ADD more places to gamble.. guess what? someone is no longer going to get that money, its going elsewhere. Im sure that is simple enough for you to understand.

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Vegas is capitalism. It's dying. Vegas has gone from being the #1 destination for construction workers to having one of the highest city unemployment rates in the country. The President decided in a speech given in NH to use it as an example of where not to go.

Forget for a moment that the entire speech was yet another example of the President believing that he and his government know better what to do, and where to spend the money you earn than you do. The US boat industry is already just about gone, but be assured they too got another bullet shot at them by the reference.

President Obama is the de facto CEO of the umbrella corporation known as the USA. As any CEO, when he speaks regardless of the audience or the market he's addressing, he must appreciate the impact of his words on the entire corporate entity.

Why do these faux pas seem to always occur at town hall meetings? Is it possible that it's a function of the President being off TelePrompter? Is he really as smart as those who voted for him thought he was?

It was only one year ago that the Vegas collapse started as a result of this comment:"You can't go take that trip to Las Vegas or go down to the Super Bowl on taxpayers' dime,"In another life, I organized conventions for my employer, the now defunct Security Pacific Bank. We ran a convention every year in Vegas as at cost of about $500k for 1500 employees of all ranks. My guess is they spent a minimum of $200-300 each in Vegas. All that money came from private sectors and went to private sectors. It paid hotels and their employees, as well as for all the other service personnel such as taxis, waiters, bellmen, strippers, and club bouncers. They ALL paid taxes adding to the local, State, and Federal revenue stream. With the CEO telling you not to go, no 'President' of a corporate entity would ever put him or herself in the cross-hairs of potential public scrutiny and ridicule. They won't be going to Vegas. Vegas will continue to die. Is the President incapable of appreciating that situation?



HUGE assumption, and proven wrong.

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Frankly Vegas, and all the other convention spots are a great place to go on the taxpayers' dime. The money spent goes into the pockets of local private individuals, companies, and ultimately comes back in again as taxable earnings. Encouraging a successful entity, corporate or individual, to go to Vegas is a path to increasing tax revenue. The major problem with the economy is that most successful entities are afraid to spend and/or invest. The reason is there is no confidence that this administration knows what they are doing or has projected out the consequences of their actions, and rhetoric to date.



IF they took bailout money.. ahem... they werent successful, were they.

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As it's the second occurrence of this reference; either the President has no understanding of how the private sector works, or is insensitive to it believing in confidence that he and his administration know better how each individual and corporation should spend their money. Either choice results in zero growth, business closings, contraction in the market, and increased unemployment.



you mean the bailout money? The people's money?

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Again, you directly link the words of Obama to the decline in the Vegas economy... according to you, that started a year ago. You cant prove the first part, the second has been disproven.





Mercnbeth -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 5:09:43 PM)

quote:

Your visit and Your friends are just as relevant as the lady i spoke too. NOT to mention, there is only so many people who are going to gamble. ADD more places to gamble.. guess what? someone is no longer going to get that money, its going elsewhere. Im sure that is simple enough for you to understand.
Can you really be this thick? Both your "lady", and my "friends" are equal - however they are not the President, and his words do matter, or they don't - see next comment.
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HUGE assumption, and proved wrong.


By whom? What proof? How can you prove a decision made to go someplace else which was made out of the public eye? Are you so insecure that you can't conceive of anyone following the President's recommendation and not organizing a convention or business meeting in Vegas?

Believing Obama's words carry such little weight, why attribute even a positive result in him making them in the first place?

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IF they took bailout money.. ahem... they werent successful, were they.
No they are and were failures - irrelevant to the point - but they are failures.

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you mean the bailout money? The people's money?
I doubt if one person hearing the President's lecture received bail out money. The comment he directed to them wasn't relevant to bail outs. Individuals should use their money as they see fit. Obama thinks differently and specifically against Vegas.

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you directly link the words of Obama to the decline in the Vegas economy
I link Obama's words to have clout and impact. You can make all the argument you want that they don't. However I won't let you be selective in deciding which are which as you are attempting to do.




tazzygirl -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 5:31:59 PM)

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quote:

IF they took bailout money.. ahem... they werent successful, were they.


No they are and were failures - irrelevant to the point - but they are failures.


That is exactly the point of what Obama said in Feb of 2009. Convenient you dont remember that. Those were the people he was speaking about when he made that comment that caused the.. how did you put it?

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It was only one year ago that the Vegas collapse started as a result of this comment:"You can't go take that trip to Las Vegas or go down to the Super Bowl on taxpayers' dime,"



quote:

At a town hall meeting Monday in Elkhart, Ind., to gain support for the stimulus bill, Obama said that “you can’t go take a trip to Las Vegas or go down to the Super Bowl on the taxpayer’s dime.”

The statement was in line with other remarks the president has made admonishing high-paid executives of failing financial institutions to use the federal bailout money responsibly.


http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2009/feb/10/las-vegas-mayor-says-obama-owes-city-an-apology/

Now you say that isnt the point? Nice piece of backpeddling there Merc.




Aynne88 -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 5:38:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Seems Vegas did that all on their own. If they dont like the reputation they have now, they have no one to blame but themselves.


So your "give a damn" has a locality requirement - understood. It seems you share that with Obama.

I respect that disclosure as I do his.

Since you believe that advertising campaigns reflect reality, pointing to them as the reasoning behind your position that they "earned" their situation and the President's comments and have based your "don't give a damn" position about an entire cities and their population upon them - do you also believe that Clydesdales play football in the snow when not pulling Budweiser delivery trucks?

You really think you "Have a Friend in Pennsylvania"?
Think "NJ and YOU are 'perfect' together"?
Think that Alaska is "Beyond Your Dreams Within Your Reach"?
Think Iowa is "Life Changing"?
Think Maine is "The Way Life Should Be"? If you go to Iowa and it isn't "Life Changing" will you not "give a damn" about them too?



Yep. It is.






Mercnbeth -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 7:11:52 PM)

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That is exactly the point of what Obama said in Feb of 2009. Convenient you dont remember that. Those were the people he was speaking about when he made that comment that caused the.. how did you put it?
Your idiocy knows no bounds. Nobody was in the room who got a bail out. No person getting a bailout needed to save for their kids education. The President's payoff to their companies insured their bonus were paid. The President pays off failures and tells people where to go on vacation at the expense, in this case, of a city.

It's still not about Vegas - it's about the President and his comments .

quote:

Now you say that isnt the point? Nice piece of backpedaling there Merc.
Backpedal from what to what? Vegas never was the point tazzy. It's about the President. You say his words have no impact and are meaningless and shouldn't be followed. I say they have, do and are.




tazzygirl -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/10/2010 7:44:26 PM)

Your op made it about Vegas.. how they were hurting as a direct result of Obama's words. That point was wrong, proof was given... your standpoint is still wrong. Case closed. Have a great evening.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Is Obama really as smart as he's reputed to be? (2/11/2010 6:54:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Your op made it about Vegas.. how they were hurting as a direct result of Obama's words. That point was wrong, proof was given... your standpoint is still wrong. Case closed. Have a great evening.

The only case closed and proved is that the topic was, and is, beyond your comprehension.




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