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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/5/2010 4:59:03 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

What caught my attention was the statement that the burden of proof rests on the shoulders of those that believe in God to prove there is a God. I thought about that statement. It is not true.

I'd say two things:

Firstly - no issue with anyone who believes in god - their call.

Secondly - it's a different matter when someone is putting themselves upfront and ranting about the existence of a god - then the burden of proof falls on the opinionated.

There is a difference between the two.

Excellent post. I bolded the part that spoke to me the most.

My mom is catholic, she raised me catholic. She is very strong in her beliefs, though she never, ever shoved religion down our throats. My father is a non praticing protestant, probably falling under the umbrella of agnostic.

I am an atheist today, well I have been since I was 17. I never hid this but my mom didn't want to talk about it. A few years ago when she was ready, she asked me to explain to her why I rejected the idea of God. I did and it was a 2 hour conversation and one point she actually cried and hugged me tight. But in the end, we decided to respect one another's choice to believe what we wanted. She still thinks that I'm an amazing woman and loves me very much and she tells me that she prays for me. She's cute though as she says to me "doesn't matter because it makes me feel happy". And who doesn't want their mom to be happy!

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 21

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/5/2010 6:54:29 PM

subfever

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Blind faith isn’t enough for me. Telling me god exists because he created the universe and it exists isn’t proof either. I just need more.

I think the universe was created by itself; no divine being managing the situation. I’m trying to be logical so this makes sense to me.

I don’t want to convert anyone to anything and I guess I’m damned like you said. It has been interesting reading people’s opinions about this website.

It's simple really. We have 3 basic choices:

We can choose to believe that God exists.
We can choose to believe that no God exists.
We can choose to believe that we do not know with absolute certainty whether or not God exists.

During my lifetime observations, I've never seen absolute proof that God does or doesn't exist. Therefore, I have chosen to believe that I do not know.

If anyone out there has absolute proof, please show me.

If you don't have absolute proof, but have still chosen to believe that God does or doesn't exist, please tell me why you have chosen to believe this.

(in reply to Brain)

Post #: 22

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/5/2010 7:21:56 PM

MrMister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

That isn't what I was really getting at: the point is that God's existence has to be accepted on blind faith, and any evidence either way would be completely irrelevant. That's part of what religion is all about: accepting things that can't be proven.

If an individual finds that blind faith works for them, I couldn’t find fault in how they may have arrived at something they find peace and happiness in. Actually, I'm happy for them. I, however, would think that God does not require us to simply come to Him in a blind leap of faith. After all, we were all created with a mind, and we were allegedly created in His image. That image is supposed to not only be represented within our spirit, but also represented within our body, within our thoughts, within our emotions within each and every one of us. I am of the mind-set that this image should be used when seeking God. It seems logical to me He would actually want us to check Him out and verify His truths. If this were not so He would not have told Moses at the burning bush various ways to prove to the Israelites that God did in fact send Moses to lead His people out from Egypt. God expected the Israelites to ask the intelligent question "How do we know that God sent you". Or in the book of Isaiah (40-48), God challenges the Israelites to examine every other God and then challenges these Gods to do what He does. And when Christ died, He stuck around for forty days in order to show Himself to others and prove to them what had taken place so as they would believe. I would say that God wants us to test and check out all the signs and all the evidence, particularly if the Christian faith is a faith that is real and is rational. And if it is a faith that can be believed in, and trusted in, it should stand up when tested.

I can attest to the fact that I once required empirical scientific evidence before I believed any of these belief systems and/or stories. But I found in finding absolute scientific proof of the existence of any of these deities, prophets, gods, etc, is that such empirical proof is not possible. Instead, I found I must weigh the evidence available and make a judgment based upon the preponderance of the evidence.

The readily accepted fact that Abraham Lincoln that was shot and killed in Ford Theater in Washington DC is a prime example of an event that cannot be proven through empirical scientific evidence that it actually happened. One must rely on historical evidence and upon doing so; based upon the overwhelming support, most would agree there is no disputing that this incidence with President Lincoln actually happened. Yes there is this obvious evidence existing concerning Lincoln (i.e., a body in the grave with a bullet hole in the skull, DNA evidence, as well as eyewitness accounts), and even given such strong evidence for the event, which is for me by far enough evidence to say without a shadow of a doubt that this event actually happened. But demonstrative scientific evidence cannot be offered to prove that Lincoln was shot. The problem we face is that demonstrative scientific evidence requires a hypothesis capable of being tested repeatedly to verify the results. The very nature of historical events is that they cannot be repeated and, therefore, cannot be tested by scientific methods. However, the question about the historicity of the claims about these accounts or events is a question of fact and precisely the type of question that has been considered and judged by courts of justice every day for thousands of years.

< Message edited by MrMister -- 2/5/2010 7:23:08 PM >

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 23

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/5/2010 7:30:40 PM

kiwisub12

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Trying to convince an atheist about the existance of god is kind of like trying to teach a dog to knit. It pisses the dog off, ruins good yarn and wastes your time. So why would you even go there?

(in reply to MrMister)

Post #: 24

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/5/2010 8:30:39 PM

Thadius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

Trying to convince an atheist about the existance of god is kind of like trying to teach a dog to knit. It pisses the dog off, ruins good yarn and wastes your time. So why would you even go there?

Some would say, because you might find that one dog that actually can and does like to knit.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to kiwisub12)

Post #: 25

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/5/2010 8:32:55 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
That isn't what I was really getting at: the point is that God's existence has to be accepted on blind faith, and any evidence either way would be completely irrelevant. That's part of what religion is all about: accepting things that can't be proven.

I think many would disagree with you that any evidence would be completely irrelevent. The Gospels offer a great deal of testimony to prove the divinity of Jesus: the miracles of walking on water, raising the dead, feeding the multitudes from a few loaves of bread and a few fish, healing the sick, the empty tomb, the angels who appeared before the women at the tomb, and his post mortum appearance before the disciples, etc. I am sure I left out a few.

You just do not wish to accept the testimony for those historical events, Moon.

And, of course, I admit I do not as well.

_____________________________

vML

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. ~ MLK Jr.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 26

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/5/2010 8:43:10 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

And, of course, I admit I do not as well.

And, of course, to accept that testimony is to believe in the Bible... and only secondarily anything else.

K.

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 27

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/5/2010 8:43:59 PM

pyroaquatic

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From: Pyroaquatica
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FR...

I choose to live a wholesome and morally rich life with lots of giving, love, and happiness spread throughout all that I have interacted with.

At this point it does not matter if God does or does not exist, nor do I care (even though I swear to converse with an entity that is a higher force). If God does not exist does that mean you get to do bad things? :}

If God does exist what makes anyone believe that a rock has more significance in God's Eyes than a human (and vice versa)? Emergent Behavior and Complexity aside all parts are necessary for the engine to work. It tends to balance itself out. I've stopped asking years ago.

I started listening.

;D

_____________________________

You are what your deep, driving desire is.
As your desire is, so is your will.
As your will is, so is your deed.
As your deed is, so is your destiny.
-Brihadaranyaka Upanishad IV.4.5

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 28

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/5/2010 8:49:33 PM

TheHeretic

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From: California, USA
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If everybody lost the spirit of giving as soon as they figured out there was no Santa Claus, Christmas morning would really suck.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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Post #: 29

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/5/2010 9:21:59 PM

LadyAngelika

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Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

I think many would disagree with you that any evidence would be completely irrelevent. The Gospels offer a great deal of testimony to prove the divinity of Jesus: the miracles of walking on water, raising the dead, feeding the multitudes from a few loaves of bread and a few fish, healing the sick, the empty tomb, the angels who appeared before the women at the tomb, and his post mortum appearance before the disciples, etc. I am sure I left out a few.

Ok. As I mentioned earlier, I respect an individual's choice to believe or not to believe in God. However, the testimony in the Bible is not proof as it has been impossible to confirm the authorship, date, and place of composition of the original text. The individual books of the New Testament may be dated with some confidence to the 1st and 2nd centuries AD. And even once it was committed to paper, much got lost in translation and change.

If you know anything about proof, you know about the important of timeliness of testimony, evidence chain of custody procedures, etc.

Now I respect someone's choice to have blind faith and believe in God. I cannot have such blind faith and like Brain said at the bottom of page 1, blind faith is not enough for me. But that's ok as I don't need people around me to think just like me in order to accept them and care for them.

But I have a hard time accepting statements like the Bible being proof. It is what it is, parables, historical accounts, storytelling, all with a great deal of value, just not any kind of proof.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to vincentML)

Post #: 30

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/5/2010 9:25:41 PM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pyroaquatic
I choose to live a wholesome and morally rich life with lots of giving, love, and happiness spread throughout all that I have interacted with.

At this point it does not matter if God does or does not exist, nor do I care (even though I swear to converse with an entity that is a higher force). If God does not exist does that mean you get to do bad things? :}

See that's the thing. I've been an atheist for about 20 years and to be honest, I've been told time and time again by friends and family that I'm incredibly trustworthy, fair, ethical and have strong moral fiber. When my mom asked me who kept me accountable, I said "me". I told her, it is one thing to have to be accountable to God and ask for his forgivness. However, I have to be accountable to me when I look at myself in the mirror every morning.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to pyroaquatic)

Post #: 31

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/5/2010 9:37:54 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
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FR

I figure I'll find out soon enough.

The written word is only proof that someone wrote it. I'll write right now.

I am the new Divine One, the one who was to come. The new Messiah. My message is however from the adversary. Those who choose to listen and believe are free to do so, the myths told of us are untrue, we do not deal in souls. You soul is your's. The big lie was that it can be created or destroyed, or more ludicracely(sp) be tortured in the afterlife.

Our followers enjoy personal freedoms that the real adversay would condemn, even if they are innate desires. Our first law is to hurt none. We have hurt none and are deemed powerless by the masses of our adversary. This is not true.

Our kind does not endorse slow death of the masses like our adversary. Out kind does not speak in tongues, and confuse our laws and guidance. We do not contradict ourselves. We do not judge on a secular basis, we do not, nor have ever made war in the history of this planet.

OK that was my moment of endowment. That is the Book Of Termy. How's come the name Termy does not have the ring of John, or Ester, or Moses ? Just because it happened today ? Who decides which of their books are cannonized ? Who decides what is for you to read and not read ? The adversary will make it all clear.

Now recount history and tell me who is the adversary ?

As such, this side never purports to hear God's word or any bullshit like that, unless you cannonize my preceeding statement. Be vary careful with that, it was meant to be an example, not the actual Scripture or anything. But is it the truth ? And what is a lie ?

T

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 32

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/5/2010 9:50:05 PM

EbonyWood

Posts: 2044
Joined: 7/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

FR

I figure I'll find out soon enough.

The written word is only proof that someone wrote it. I'll write right now.

I am the new Divine One, the one who was to come. The new Messiah. My message is however from the adversary. Those who choose to listen and believe are free to do so, the myths told of us are untrue, we do not deal in souls. You soul is your's. The big lie was that it can be created or destroyed, or more ludicracely(sp) be tortured in the afterlife.

Our followers enjoy personal freedoms that the real adversay would condemn, even if they are innate desires. Our first law is to hurt none. We have hurt none and are deemed powerless by the masses of our adversary. This is not true.

Our kind does not endorse slow death of the masses like our adversary. Out kind does not speak in tongues, and confuse our laws and guidance. We do not contradict ourselves. We do not judge on a secular basis, we do not, nor have ever made war in the history of this planet.

OK that was my moment of endowment. That is the Book Of Termy. How's come the name Termy does not have the ring of John, or Ester, or Moses ? Just because it happened today ? Who decides which of their books are cannonized ? Who decides what is for you to read and not read ? The adversary will make it all clear.

Now recount history and tell me who is the adversary ?

These guys.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 33

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/5/2010 10:18:50 PM

subtee

Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
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~FR

I believe in God. I wanna.

The Osmonds would probably change my mind if I thought about them too much. Especially Jimmy. WFT?

I've studied religions and I find them cool and they all make me believe in God. Prolly cause I wanna.

I'm cool with that.

_____________________________

Don't believe everything you think...

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Post #: 34

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/5/2010 10:29:04 PM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever
If you don't have absolute proof, but have still chosen to believe that God does or doesn't exist, please tell me why you have chosen to believe this.

Same reason I don't believe in Santa Claus.

(in reply to subfever)

Post #: 35

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/5/2010 10:42:52 PM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever
If you don't have absolute proof, but have still chosen to believe that God does or doesn't exist, please tell me why you have chosen to believe this.

Same reason I don't believe in Santa Claus.

And to that, I would add

God is a concept,
By which we can measure,
Our pain,
I'll say it again,
God is a concept,
By which we can measure,
Our pain,
I don't believe in magic,
I don't believe in I-ching,
I don't believe in bible,
I don't believe in tarot,
I don't believe in Hitler,
I don't believe in Jesus,
I don't believe in Kennedy,
I don't believe in Buddha,
I don't believe in mantra,
I don't believe in Gita,
I don't believe in yoga,
I don't believe in kings,
I don't believe in Elvis,
I don't believe in Zimmerman,
I don't believe in Beatles,
I just believe in me,
Yoko and me,
And that's reality.
The dream is over,
What can I say?
The dream is over,
Yesterday,
I was dreamweaver,
But now I'm reborn,
I was the walrus,
But now I'm John,
And so dear friends,
You just have to carry on,
The dream is over.

- John Lennon

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 36

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/5/2010 10:46:12 PM

GotSteel

Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Ok. As I mentioned earlier, I respect an individual's choice to believe or not to believe in God. However, the testimony in the Bible is not proof as it has been impossible to confirm the authorship, date, and place of composition of the original text.

Then there's the issue with claims in the bible being inconsistent with reality and with history. That book isn't even internally consistent.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 37

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/5/2010 10:50:52 PM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Ok. As I mentioned earlier, I respect an individual's choice to believe or not to believe in God. However, the testimony in the Bible is not proof as it has been impossible to confirm the authorship, date, and place of composition of the original text.

Then there's the issue with claims in the bible being inconsistent with reality and with history. That book isn't even internally consistent.

True. Probably why big movie makers in Hollywood uses it so much as a base for so many movie scripts seeing as though they aren't to concerned with internal consistency in a script. ;-)

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 38

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/5/2010 10:55:49 PM

Kana

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Joined: 10/24/2006
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Faith-The irrational belief in the unprovable.
Thus, proof is not faith, if anything it is faith's polar opposite.
If one can prove something beyond reasonable doubt, believing is no longer an act of faith, but of fact

< Message edited by Kana -- 2/5/2010 11:20:52 PM >

(in reply to Brain)

Post #: 39

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/5/2010 10:59:32 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Same reason I don't believe in Santa Claus.

Santa Claus is a metaphor for the spirit of giving.

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)

Post #: 40

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