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RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 12:24:10 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

I never defined faith as a feeling

I took you to be using the term "irrational" in a perjorative sense... but then I realized I wasn't sure, and decided not to pursue it.

K.

I was actually using it more in the Aristotlean logic sense.
Rationally it makes no sense to believe in something that is unprovable
Thus, to believe in such an entity is an act of irrationality.
Hence, to do so is to take a leap of faith

Yes - providing you adhere to the principles of empiricism and close observation.

But - there is another option - and I'm sure you're well versed with Plato's ideas that we understand reality through vision/imagination which is conveyed through art/music/literature.

I think it's irrational to think that a way of thinking is superior to another - particularly where you adhere to the code of the 'more you read the less you know'.

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Post #: 61

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 12:29:52 AM

CountrySong

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If you really think about it - We can't even prove that we really exist! As Rene Descartes wrote "I am thinking therefor I exist!" I believe the hindus say that we are all just a dream of a sleeping God. (One of the newest theories of the Universe is that it is actually two dimenional and only seems 3 dimensional - kinda like one of those 3-D cards you get nowdays. So we could just be characters in a giant TV.)
Is God possible. I used to beleive the answer was NO! But then I refound my faith because everything the man claims God did we can do today. Much of it can actually be done literally - like making a virgin pregnant, bringing someone back to life, or curing blindness. The rest can be done in virtual reality.
What I do believe is that if there is any possible way to creat an afterlife then someone will do it, assuming it has not already been done by "God."
For those of you still confused just remember that the answer is 42 and be happy. If you don't believe that then please consult "The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy." (Not the sci-fi book by the same name writen by Mr. Adams but the real one. Oh and if you happen to find one laying around please check inside to see if it belongs to me. I seem to have misplaced mine somewhere and really need it for futhers study on the existence of God.)

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Post #: 62

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 12:35:28 AM

NorthernGent

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Christianity is the story of an impressive journey from a small sect to a world wide movement governing and informing our daily lives (believer or otherwise).

The underlying attraction is salvation - this point should inform on what exactly drives religion.

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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to CountrySong)

Post #: 63

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 6:39:09 AM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

the average North American individual spends more in preperation for the holiday season than at any other time of the year

What, precisely, is wrong with that?

K.

Seriously? Ok, well I should also add that the extensive spending also often results in debt. And the idea that someone would but themselves in debt in order to be aligned with the spirit of giving is twisted.

Christmas is not a religious holiday anymore, not for the masses. The reason that I do not celebrate Christmas is not because I'm an atheist, but rather because I don't agree with the hypocrisy of the holiday.

- LA

So your not going to celebrate a holiday because 'the masses' don't view it as a religious holiday? Personally I could really give a rodents behind how other people celebrate Christmas unless they are coming to my house that night.

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Post #: 64

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 10:27:38 AM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

the average North American individual spends more in preperation for the holiday season than at any other time of the year

What, precisely, is wrong with that?

K.

Seriously? Ok, well I should also add that the extensive spending also often results in debt. And the idea that someone would but themselves in debt in order to be aligned with the spirit of giving is twisted.

Christmas is not a religious holiday anymore, not for the masses. The reason that I do not celebrate Christmas is not because I'm an atheist, but rather because I don't agree with the hypocrisy of the holiday.

- LA

So your not going to celebrate a holiday because 'the masses' don't view it as a religious holiday? Personally I could really give a rodents behind how other people celebrate Christmas unless they are coming to my house that night.

No, that isn't what I wrote. I'm not sure how you drew that conclusion.

And you are abolutely free to celebrate what you wish of course!

- LA

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 2/6/2010 10:28:49 AM >

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Post #: 65

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 10:28:54 AM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Christianity is the story of an impressive journey from a small sect to a world wide movement governing and informing our daily lives (believer or otherwise).

The underlying attraction is salvation - this point should inform on what exactly drives religion.

Very well said.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 66

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 10:44:58 AM

mikeyOfGeorgia

Posts: 451
Joined: 3/8/2009
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quote:

The underlying attraction is salvation - this point should inform on what exactly drives religion.

and here i thought is was all about the money. funny how an organization that claims to be "non-profit" rakes in so much money for the preachers, priests, cardinals and other heads of organized religion. if what the (so-called) bible has said...then back in biblical times, there were no churches, no fancy clothes, no begging for money, no fancy forms of transportation (as everyone walked or rode a mule or some such animal). people didn't try to show they were more righteous than their neighbor (as they do today with accumulating any an all items listed above.

what would religion do if it weren't for all these material gains?

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 67

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 11:03:11 AM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

Blind faith isn’t enough for me. Telling me god exists because he created the universe and it exists isn’t proof either. I just need more.

I think the universe was created by itself; no divine being managing the situation. I’m trying to be logical so this makes sense to me.

I don’t want to convert anyone to anything and I guess I’m damned like you said. It has been interesting reading people’s opinions about this website.

It's simple really. We have 3 basic choices:

We can choose to believe that God exists.
We can choose to believe that no God exists.
We can choose to believe that we do not know with absolute certainty whether or not God exists.

During my lifetime observations, I've never seen absolute proof that God does or doesn't exist. Therefore, I have chosen to believe that I do not know.

If anyone out there has absolute proof, please show me.

If you don't have absolute proof, but have still chosen to believe that God does or doesn't exist, please tell me why you have chosen to believe this.

"Absolute proof" is an impossible standard to meet except in mathematics, and even then you run into the incompleteness theorem.

Lack of evidence when billions of people have been searching for evidence of god for 1000s of years is very strong evidence that there is no god. I haven't "chosen" to be an atheist, it is the inevitable conclusion from an objective analysis.

(in reply to subfever)

Post #: 68

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 11:09:41 AM

tazzygirl

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An argument from ignorance is a logical fallacy, as i have pointed out before. Nor does it prove your case.

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Post #: 69

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 11:13:50 AM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

An argument from ignorance is a logical fallacy, as i have pointed out before. Nor does it prove your case.

Too bad its not an argument from ignorance. Declaring it as such would be circular. Lack of evidence IS evidence. Many scientific theories have been accepted as proven false because they lead to predictions for which there is no physical evidence.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 70

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 11:18:45 AM

tazzygirl

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Actually, by definition, it is.

Argument from ignorance
The two most common forms of the argument from ignorance, both fallacious, can be reduced to the following form:

Something is currently unexplained or insufficiently understood or explained, so it is not (or must not be) true.
Because there appears to be a lack of evidence for one hypothesis, another chosen hypothesis is therefore considered proven.
Irving Copi writes that:

The argumentum ad ignorantiam [fallacy] is committed whenever it is argued that a proposition is true simply on the basis that it has not been proven false, or that it is false because it has not been proven true.[...] A qualification should be made at this point. In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence despite searching, as positive evidence towards its non-occurrence. (Copi 1953)

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 71

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 11:23:27 AM

housesub4you

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Why Brain???? Why

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Post #: 72

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 11:28:42 AM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

Why Brain???? Why

Because he can :-)

- LA

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Post #: 73

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 11:30:10 AM

willbeurdaddy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The argumentum ad ignorantiam [fallacy] is committed whenever it is argued that a proposition is true simply on the basis that it has not been proven false,

Hence the circularity. It requires a definition of what constitutes "not been proven false". Since non-existence can never be proven, such proof is an impossible standard to meet. Therefore scientists rely on a preponderence of lack of evidence (direct or indirect) for something as proof of non-existence, until such evidence is found.

LMAO when you of all people are attempting to use logical arguments. But keep cutting and pasting things that you don't really understand the nuances of, it must give you some satisfaction, and I like people to be happy.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 74

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 11:36:15 AM

tazzygirl

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I understand the nuance perfectly. Sadly, you do not. To prove something doesnt exist, and state it emphatically, is an argument from ignorance. Case in point... bacteria has existed as long as we have... how long did it take for us to "discover" its existence.. and how many scientists used the argument from ignorance to deny its existence until it WAS proven. And as with the beginning of the "universe", just because there is no argument against the Big Bang theory doesnt mean it IS how it happened.. its just that.. a theory.. not scientfic fact. When you have FACT, the argument from ignorance is thereby negated... but not before then.

Its hardly a circular argument, as much as you wish to pretend it may be. But, please, continue in your ignorance... you are so much cuter that way.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 2/6/2010 11:40:55 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 75

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 11:40:06 AM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I understand the nuance perfectly. Sadly, yo do not. To prove something doesnt exist, and state it emphatically, is an argument from ignorance. Case in point... bacteria existed as long as we have... how long did it take for us to "discover" its existence.. and how many scientists used the argument fromignorance to deny its existence until it WAS proven. And as with the beginning of the "universe", just because there is no argument against the Big Bang theory doesnt mean its IS how it happened.. its just that.. a theory.. not scientfic fact. When you have FACT, the argument from ignorance is thereby negated... but not before then.

Its hardly a circular argument, as much as you wish to pretend it may be. But, please, continue in your ignorance... your so much cuter that way.

sorry, but you are repeating yourself, and also use the tired ploy of "just a theory", evidence that you dont have a clue what a theory is.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 76

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 11:41:46 AM

tazzygirl

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LOL.. i dont understand it so much, you are having trouble pointing out where i am wrong. Tsk tsk... you should know by now that doesnt work with me, willbe.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 77

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 11:45:50 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

scientists rely on a preponderence of lack of evidence (direct or indirect) for something as proof

Unh, there is a difference between "scientists" and science. Science does not consider anything "as proof" of something that can't be proven.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/6/2010 11:49:16 AM >

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 78

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 11:49:16 AM

Jeffff

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

scientists rely on a preponderence of lack of evidence (direct or indirect) for something as proof

Unh, scientists do not "rely on" anything "as proof" of something that can't be proven.

K.

You can not prove a negative. Thus it can never really be proven that God does not exist.

Jeff

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Post #: 79

RE: Proof Of God To An Atheist - 2/6/2010 11:55:10 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

You can not prove a negative. Thus it can never really be proven that God does not exist.

But it's not a negative. It is an affirmative claim that the cause (of the universe, the "miracle," or whatever the subject may be) is something else.

K.

(in reply to Jeffff)

Post #: 80

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