RE: Married - is this then cheating (Full Version)

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GraciousLady -> RE: Married - is this then cheating (2/11/2010 5:49:44 AM)

I completely agree with LadyPact. There is NO excuse for the OP's actions. Those who defend him need to realize he does not just have an account here. He has a whole internet life if you read his blog. Many hours have been put into this that would better be spent on his marriage or the disolution of it if it's that bad. I'll also ad his profile here does not mention he is married. Yet another deception on his part. We sometimes forget things like personal responsibility and just plain old fashioned decency. The bottom line is he is lieing to his wife. He has come to us looking for validation of his deception. Sure, he may indeed have an unsatisfying marriage but he needs to deal with that before he moves on.

His wife is a human being with feelings. She does not deserve this.



RedMagic1 -> RE: Married - is this then cheating (2/11/2010 6:55:17 AM)

Pot, have you ever engaged in a BDSM act with a woman, in your life?  I'm guessing the answer is "no," or, "not for many many years."

Part of the reason your fantasies have become obsessions is your constant burying of them inside yourself.  I remember being obsessive about this stuff, and you know what?  Once I actually did some of it -- once I realized some of my fantasies -- my relation to them changed.  Now they are (very) fun things to do, but less important than emotional contact, or necking.

As a bizarre karmic payback from the universe, once my level of obsession with kinky sex started to fade, kinky women started to want to spend more and more time with me.

Talk to your wife.  If you want advice, I suggest you start a new thread about how to go about that.  "The talk" is a very common issue for kinky people in relationships.



Domin8tingUrDrmz -> RE: Married - is this then cheating (2/11/2010 8:32:36 AM)

FR-

Pot, I see you are still reading. I am glad that you are. I hope you are thinking about the advice that has been given to you and I also hope that you are putting your wife's feelings into consideration.

Many negative things have been said toward your current behavior and, quite frankly, rightfully so based on the information you have provided. However, even with all of that, I'm betting most of us would be willing to help you find ways of actually talking to your wife if that is what you choose.

She may be vanilla forever, she may eventually find kink or D/s or some combination thereof, but ask yourself this - Do you love your wife? Does your wife love you? Would you be happy if your wife would consider trying? Would you be content if she tried but decided it wasn't for her but she at least made the effort because she loves you?

If you answer yes to any of those questions, you owe her the chance. If you answer no to those questions, you at least owe her the truth and give her a divorce so she may find a man who will love her the way she needs to be loved.



OttersSwim -> RE: Married - is this then cheating (2/11/2010 10:18:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SthrnCom4t
And Otter, I'm going to say this publicly, get off your judgmental high horse. A person can come and ask a question and get some answers, then go away and think. He doesn't HAVE TO come back and give any further feedback. (sure, it's nice, but its not a requirement) Again, he's not on anyone's time table and your post went down the negative, judgmental route condemning him on the 'sins' of other previous posters.


Without a doubt, my post yesterday escalated the energy in the topic.  I admit that I was a bit riled up and it did not reflect the intent or energy that I generally intend to bring to these forums, nor the dynamic between myself and my Lady. 

After perusing the OPs profile several times, and seeing that he had procured dozens of female friends, a blog, was actively seeking to meet women online, and was pretty well down the "double life" path of deception - i.e., this was not someone who had a single fling, or was exploring - this was someone who had done this for some time, with multiple people, and with -intent-.  That got me a bit riled and I remember thinking "Well, we'll never see this guy again.", and that got me angry too as it is typical of these types of posts where you feel as if you are shouting at the wind responding to people with advice and they just run away from it.

My Lady and I have discussed this for a bit, and one of the points that certainly comes to the fore is that as kinky people, we typically engage in power exchange dynamics and activities that require a high degree of trust between the parties.  Such trust is indicative of either the base character of the person or their evolution or a combination of both.  So I think we as  group, and specifically I, tend to have a rather strong reaction when I see someone engaged so deeply in a deception.  So such posts are usually met with a higher degree of scorn and judgment because of who we are, but that does not always excuse bad or overly aggressive behavior.  For myself I was engaged in a marriage where for almost a dozen years, I imposed on myself a denial of self rather than betraying her trust in me and my vow to be a loyal husband.  So I have my own baggage around people who have chosen the other path.

So yea, I got judgmental and pretty darn bitchy.  As I said, it was not in the spirit or energy of the dynamic that my Lady and I share, and so I apologize to Her for being so aggressive.  We also discussed that if we feel as if we are shouting into the wind, to consider that shouting at someone (regardless of how their actions might offend you) is not the best way to get their attention, nor your desired result.  I think that we all would like to see the OP do some serious thinking about his actions and intentions and perhaps make some changes in his life that will lead him to a place of stronger integrity and authenticity in his actions.  As my Lady pointed out, shouting him down is not the best way to engender his positive consideration of our arguments.

At the end of the day, while what we do here does touch real people's lives a bit, it is just a little internet forum.  This has shown me that the passion that I sometimes bring here is good, but maybe I need to take a break from it now and again so as to not "drink from the firehose" as I said in an earlier post.



SthrnCom4t -> RE: Married - is this then cheating (2/11/2010 5:12:57 PM)

LP - I agree with everything you said below. I don't condone cheating or unethical behavior, nor do I want to spend much time around it.

The point I was trying to make, was that, it's not for us to judge. We can give our opinion, without judging.

Do you think this is cheating?  Yes, No, etc. We can add some explanation as to why we feel that way.

What I didn't see as especially positive or constructive, was expecting the poster to come back immediately, declare us right/wrong, etc. I thought Otter's expectation of the guy being on anyone's time schedule other than his own, wasn't realistic, nor your declaration of 'how hard is it really?' And I say that because, at one point in my life, this was an agonizing position to be in, and it was the most tumultuous time of my life. I'm not a terrible person, but I discovered an interest that went to my core. My relationship status was 8 years into a marriage. I knew him well, and even when I figured out that this was something important enough to me to introduce and probably bring a huge upheaval, it was EXTREMELY difficult. I'm sure you've found that living with integrity and being ethical isn't always the easiest road. The most satisfying and rewarding in the long run, but not always the 'easiest'.

Thinking the guy is going to come back after 2 days, see the clarity of what we are saying, etc, isn't necessarily realistic.

He's not cheating with me, or anyone I know, so I have to be respectful enough to give him my opinion, if he asks, maybe some suggestions, and let him grow and evolve at his own pace. I, you, Otter, whomever, make our own choices of not engaging with people in this position more than just superficially, if at all.

Also, not saying you do, but really, anyone having an emotional reaction (Otter) over a topic on an internet forum, might consider why they are responding that way to some stranger's situation.

As an aside, I find the forums of use because it gives us fodder for discussion in our personal relationship, and promotes discussion and growth between us as a couple.

(now I'll go back and continue reading past your post <smile>)



quote:

I understand your position, Sthrn, but I have to say that I don't quite agree with it. I would be all there with you if the OP happened to be single and not involved with anyone else. The thing is, he's not. He's got another living, breathing human being in his life. One that doesn't deserve to be deceived, or at the very minimum not be having the person that she's living with be honest with her. What did she do to deserve that? She was/is vanilla. What does she get? A husband who is searching for another woman on the internet.

Entirely too often, we're ready to jump on the side of the person in a marriage who has discovered they have a kinky side. We don't show the compassion for that non kinky partner. While we sing the chorus of 'be the kinky person that you are', we so quickly forget that there's another person in the picture who is being who they are, or hasn't even been given the option yet of sharing this path with their partner, because they never talked to them about it. We talk so much about consent, but we forget that the option of consent is being removed from that spouse at home. The very things that we would say would not be acceptable in a dynamic; dishonesty, non-consent, potential harm, etc shouldn't be acceptable in a marriage. The fact that we're talking about a non kinky person in the equation doesn't mean that they don't deserve to be treated just as honorably as we would a submissive.

Rather than making an account on a BDSM site, what happened to options such as honestly talking with the spouse? What about reading some articles, rather than trying to involve another living person (the Dominant he's searching for)? In the grand scheme of things, wouldn't spending $19.95 for a copy of "When Someone You Love Is Kinky" be a much better method than the deception that's trying to be played out?

Instead, people 'discover' kink and lose their minds. They become very selfish about their wants, their desires, their growth, and their, their, their, their. In pursuing them, they chose to forget that they have other people in their lives that have just as much right to what they want as the person who wants to explore kink. That other human being, the non kinky one, has just as much value as the person who has found the kinky part of themselves. That non kinky person isn't here to speak up for themselves. I think some of us in this community should.


Edited because I got so caught up in the wants, I missed the fact that one of the words was "what".



LadyAngelika -> RE: Married - is this then cheating (2/11/2010 6:04:05 PM)

I wasn't going to post on this topic initially. I've been cheated on in the past and it hurts like the Dickens. I never feel I can be objective about it.

quote:

LP - I agree with everything you said below. I don't condone cheating or unethical behavior, nor do I want to spend much time around it.

The point I was trying to make, was that, it's not for us to judge. We can give our opinion, without judging.


This... and the rest of your post, brilliant SthrnCom4t. Thank you. It truly isn't for us to judge anyone or their situation as we haven't walked in their shoes. And at the end of the day, we are accountable for our actions and have to live with them.

- LA




LadyPact -> RE: Married - is this then cheating (2/11/2010 6:11:59 PM)

I think that's the irony of it, Sthrn.  Those of us who have gone through this in the past know what it's like and we know there are better ways of going about getting to the other side than taking the unethical path.  I'm not especially saying that it's easy, but it actually ends up being a lot less complicated than a web of deceit that comes from doing it the other way.

There have been a lot of threads lately about ethics and honesty when dealing with other people in our lives.  At times, they tend to run together, along with all of the threads about converting vanilla spouses, and the rest of the lot.  You know, there are good pieces written in past threads.  Anybody choosing to use the search feature and going on the key words of the book title "When Someone You Love Is Kinky" can find tons of advice on how to approach this issue.  There are a number of suggestions that have been written over the years.  I can't personally say that one of the recommendations that I would give would be seeking out partners behind the spouses back.  If it's judgmental to see the part where the wife didn't consent and there is a load of potential harm from this situation, then I'll cop to being judgmental.

In My opinion, there really is a line between YKINMK, but your kink is ok, and everything you do is ok, just because it's kinky.  Almost as if, since there is kink involved, none of the other rules apply.  If we took the kink away, and the OP was on another internet dating site because he wanted to wet his sexual appetite with a different kind of woman than his wife (pick one, age, build, race, financial status), we wouldn't be condoning it.  We'd be telling him that he's a cheating husband if they have a monogamous relationship.  Better yet, if the wife was his Dominant, and he was searching for other Dominants behind his Mistress' back, the comments about how he didn't deserve to wear her collar would be on these boards so fast it would make someone's head spin.

Unfortunately, we will have to agree to disagree on this one.  Which, by and large, isn't such a bad thing.  None of us on these boards ever completely agree or disagree on absolutely everything.  I always appreciate those debates where there can be two points of view, yet those views can be expressed with courtesy and dignity.  Thank you for that.

Though, this actually might make good discussion for another thread.  Perhaps it would  be interesting to explore differences of opinions within dynamics, on issues outside the relationship.  (Such as you and Otters have had here and as clip and I have on various issues.)  It could make for an interesting talk.

As always, My best to you and to your Otters.



azjojoba -> RE: Married - is this then cheating (2/12/2010 12:43:20 AM)

Pot, I sympathize with you, but don't expect the women here to. Most of them here like to pretend that they are faithful little angels that would never think of going outside of their relationship. Expect them to tell you that everything is perfect because they are so honest. [:D]



SweetDommes -> RE: Married - is this then cheating (2/12/2010 2:43:25 AM)

Actually, most of us don't go outside the relationship in the way that you and the OP desire to. We want our partners to be on the table with what is going on.

One of the underlying principles for most people in BDSM is consent. If a significant other doesn't know what is going on, then they can't consent to it.



LadyAngelika -> RE: Married - is this then cheating (2/12/2010 4:56:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: azjojoba

Pot, I sympathize with you, but don't expect the women here to. Most of them here like to pretend that they are faithful little angels that would never think of going outside of their relationship. Expect them to tell you that everything is perfect because they are so honest. [:D]


While I tend to agree with you that some people might be hypocrites (they come in all shapes, sizes, genders and sides of the kneel), you shouldn't paint everyone with the same brush neither.

As SweetDommes said (sorry, I forgot if it's Holly or Karen that posts here) the underlying principles for most people in BDSM is consent. Many people in BDSM also negotiate various types of open or polyamourous relationships, which when negotiated properly is not cheating as long as they are staying within the bounds of what was agreed upon.

I am far from being a perfect "little angel" as you say, but faithful, that I pride myself on being. Have I cheated in my mind? Yes. And when that happens, it's a sign that there is something significantly wrong with the relationship I'm in. I figure if I find myself with someone and I'm not satisfied, I will wrap things up before I move on.

Also, for me, temptation to play outside a solid relationship doesn't work for me, which is why the prospect of having more than one lover can work in theory when I'm not attached to anyone in particular, but goes out the window when I fall in love.

As for being with a married man, while I will not judge him to his face as that is never productive and everyone's situation is different, yes I do judge him based on my own ethics. That's normal. However, my reason for not wanting to be with a married or otherwise engaged man goes beyon ethics. It is because I refuse to be n°2 in a man's life and compete for his time, attention and affections with another woman. Also, in the very slim chance that he leaves her for me, what is the guarantee that he won't take the same exit strategy with me someday. That is why I don't touch that situation with a 10 foot pole.

As always, YMMV.

- LA




SweetDommes -> RE: Married - is this then cheating (2/12/2010 5:50:48 AM)

It's Karen, and yeah, that's pretty much our feelings (although we are not monogamous at any time ... obviously). We are open and honest about it, and there is no sneaking, or lying, or hiding what we are doing. Monogamy is, for us, highly overrated ... fidelity, however, is not.



marshalp -> RE: Married - is this then cheating (2/12/2010 6:04:54 AM)

Completely agree with LP... go on tell her... honesty could actually make your relation much stronger...



LadyPact -> RE: Married - is this then cheating (2/12/2010 7:02:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: azjojoba

Pot, I sympathize with you, but don't expect the women here to. Most of them here like to pretend that they are faithful little angels that would never think of going outside of their relationship. Expect them to tell you that everything is perfect because they are so honest. [:D]


Being as someone who also doesn't have the balls to tell his wife what he's doing, I'm sure you do sympathize with the OP.  When you grow a pair, you may actually have some constructive advice.



Domin8tingUrDrmz -> RE: Married - is this then cheating (2/12/2010 8:22:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: azjojoba

Pot, I sympathize with you, but don't expect the women here to. Most of them here like to pretend that they are faithful little angels that would never think of going outside of their relationship. Expect them to tell you that everything is perfect because they are so honest. [:D]



When I was young (way too young to enter a bar mind you) I cheated on a guy once. My then best friend told him about the affair so she could worm her way into his bed. I ended up without the guy I loved at the time and lost what I thought was a good friend. Yep, I made that mistake. I felt like the lowest form of scum imaginable. I learned a very valuable lesson. Honesty. Imagine that. I am not wired for monogamy, I've tried but it just isn't in me.

After my one and only experience at deceptively cheating on someone I have since had the balls to inform others that I date that they will not be the only person I am with. This way the people in my life have the option of deciding whether or not they wish to be with someone who isn't monogomous. I give them that choice. I no longer feel like the scum that feeds upon scum.

So, yes people make mistakes particularly when they are not fully mature. However, when you go so far as to make a vow with a person, now is not the time to have a crisis over commitment. That crisis should have occured prior to such a commitment. If you are mature enough to say "I DO", you should be mature enough to honor that vow. In the very least, open up discussion and communicate with your spouse the crisis you are having. Hopefully your spouse will come to terms with it and perhaps understand. If your spouse does not understand you have several options:
Remain loyal as promised in your vow.
Remove yourself from the vow then seek out what you now desire.
Remain married, cheat, get found out eventually and hurt the person you claim to love.

That last option is by far the least honorable. Doesn't your spouse deserve to be happy too? Shouldn't they at least have the opportunity to decide if they wish to be in a relationship with a person who is not monogomous? Really, how is it fair for you to be deceptive? Quite simply, it isn't. I learned that the hard way and have no intentions of repeating that mistake.



pot -> RE: Married - is this then cheating (2/12/2010 2:49:26 PM)

The devil is back....

Thank you all for your answers - I asked a question and got an answer.

No doubt that the majority thinks that I am a stinking cheating lier - and that I have to live with.

Some others did have the kindness to put in more efforts than just giving me a piece of their mind - they did come up with some advices - much appreciated and a great posibility trying to get my fantasy hanging together with my lovely wife.

For those few of you indicating that I didnt used enough time with my significant - great... like you knew best, yes I did put this question here because of my insecureness being here... but I have never recieved any complaints from wifey and that goes from work, housekeeping, cooking, cleaning etc. to lovemaking - funny how things should be used aginst you...

I am very thankful for those of you who could get over the fact that it is cheating (according to this forum) - and come up with ideas of how to get things up in the open, those answers are very useful - those only telling me what an asshole I am.... well sorry.. pulll yourself together... life isnt perfect but if your work with it - it can be better.

Lastly - in my little book there is a difference between some cyber/mind play and physics, but again thats my oppinion.

Again thanks for all your words kind or harsh - Life is to short to live by others standards, but then again its OK to be pushed around from time to time.

Yes I am sure to get some new things to stand up to or answer - and I will do but please have the decency to give time needed.

Respecfully POT



dreamerdreaming -> RE: Married - is this then cheating (2/12/2010 3:12:27 PM)

fast reply:

OP, you are deceiving her.

Dishonesty and deceit just in general, will fuck up your marriage. Duh. [8|]

You're cheating yourself, and her, out of time and effort that is better off put toward some kind of amicable solution. By not moving forward with her in whatever ways you both need to, you're wasting your time and hers.



OttersSwim -> RE: Married - is this then cheating (2/12/2010 3:29:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pot

Lastly - in my little book there is a difference between some cyber/mind play and physics, but again thats my oppinion.


When it comes down to the moment of discovery, it won't matter one bit what you think it is - what will matter is what -she- thinks it is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: pot
Yes I am sure to get some new things to stand up to or answer - and I will do but please have the decency to give time needed.

Respecfully POT


Best of luck in your path.



LadyPact -> RE: Married - is this then cheating (2/12/2010 3:34:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pot

The devil is back....

Thank you all for your answers - I asked a question and got an answer.

No doubt that the majority thinks that I am a stinking cheating lier - and that I have to live with.

Some others did have the kindness to put in more efforts than just giving me a piece of their mind - they did come up with some advices - much appreciated and a great posibility trying to get my fantasy hanging together with my lovely wife.

For those few of you indicating that I didnt used enough time with my significant - great... like you knew best, yes I did put this question here because of my insecureness being here... but I have never recieved any complaints from wifey and that goes from work, housekeeping, cooking, cleaning etc. to lovemaking - funny how things should be used aginst you...

I am very thankful for those of you who could get over the fact that it is cheating (according to this forum) - and come up with ideas of how to get things up in the open, those answers are very useful - those only telling me what an asshole I am.... well sorry.. pulll yourself together... life isnt perfect but if your work with it - it can be better.

Lastly - in my little book there is a difference between some cyber/mind play and physics, but again thats my oppinion.

Again thanks for all your words kind or harsh - Life is to short to live by others standards, but then again its OK to be pushed around from time to time.

Yes I am sure to get some new things to stand up to or answer - and I will do but please have the decency to give time needed.

Respecfully POT

Ah, but the devil is in the details, isn't it?

You didn't come here asking for help about how to discuss this with your wife.  Your opening question was 'is it considered cheating'?  That was the answer you received by an overwhelming majority.

If you actually want to talk to your wife about your desires, you'd have received the same answer that every other male gets when he brings the question.  Some of that has been outlined in the thread here.  There is more of it in the countless threads on the subject.  Use the search function here and use some simple key words:

"When Someone You Love Is Kinky" will bring up multiple entries, as many of us recommend the book for those who want to introduce kink in their marriage.

"Converting A Vanilla Spouse" should also bring multiple threads that are just chocked full of advice.

Random searches, such as "Vanilla Wife, submissive male" or "Introduce Wife to Dominance" should also bring you some results.

You actually have an opportunity in front of you to do this in a much more honest way than you have been prior to this point.  Believe it or not, it does happen.



pot -> RE: Married - is this then cheating (2/12/2010 3:54:00 PM)

Thanks for your reply - you could be right but again you couldnt ..... you asume that being asked one question is all what one then care about.... as I said in earlier (or mean to) I value the answers trying to push things further, trying to make the best (not just condem).

I havent been around here to see/read what other guys have been asking and I recorgnize that you and your fellows can be tired about this kind of "crap", but this will happen again and again - do (please) put in more effort to be constructive.....

Lastly I really thank you for your direction fo other threads (specific) and other searches - be assure I will take time to have a look.



dreamerdreaming -> RE: Married - is this then cheating (2/12/2010 4:18:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Pot, have you ever engaged in a BDSM act with a woman, in your life?  I'm guessing the answer is "no," or, "not for many many years."

Part of the reason your fantasies have become obsessions is your constant burying of them inside yourself.  I remember being obsessive about this stuff, and you know what?  Once I actually did some of it -- once I realized some of my fantasies -- my relation to them changed.  Now they are (very) fun things to do, but less important than emotional contact, or necking.

As a bizarre karmic payback from the universe, once my level of obsession with kinky sex started to fade, kinky women started to want to spend more and more time with me.

Talk to your wife.  If you want advice, I suggest you start a new thread about how to go about that.  "The talk" is a very common issue for kinky people in relationships.




This.  ^



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