Where do you fit in the political spectrum? (Full Version)

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InvisibleBlack -> Where do you fit in the political spectrum? (2/10/2010 9:42:06 AM)

One thing that I've seen come up in numerous threads here is the debate about what is "Left" or what is "Right", differing usages of terms like "socialism", "communism", "democracy", "libertarianism" and the like. Just to spur some thinking (Lord help me) I offer you the Pournelle chart, Developed by Jerry Pournelle in 1963 for his PhD thesis in Political Science, it offers a different look at the political spectrum.

The left-right axis is statism - whether government is viewed as a positive in social matters or as a necessary evil. Put simply:





"The Statism/x-axis represents one’s attitude toward the State. It is meant to reflect the political philosophy towards state and centralized government. The farthest right position entails state worship, while the farthest left views the state as an evil entity and prefers individual freedom."


The up-down axis is described as "reason". This is tougher to understand but boils down to whether or not you believe that is possible, through social/political methods alone, to solve society problems or whether mankind is has an innately irrational component and a planned utopia is simply not possible:




"The Rationalism/y-axis represents one’s attitude towards planned social progress. It is meant to reflect the political philosophy whether problems in society can be solved through the use of reason. The very top position has complete confidence that planned social progress is possible; while the very bottom represents skepticism and distrust of such approaches, believing that a human utopia is not possible."
 


I find Pournelle's chart fascinating because it clearly shows a demarcation between communism and fascism, and between anarchism and libertarianism. It does not present things in a simple left-right dichotomy but instead attempts to quantify the types of solutions one is looking in a political system.

Where would you find yourself on his chart?



[image]local://upfiles/844959/CE03B2F9C5B54F3D9594D18EEEA9C546.gif[/image]

[Edited to add: The chart described in Pournelle's own words is here: http://www.baen.com/chapters/axes.htm.]




popeye1250 -> RE: Where do you fit in the political spectrum? (2/10/2010 9:57:08 AM)

Oh God, they have PhD's in "political science?"




SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Where do you fit in the political spectrum? (2/10/2010 10:03:51 AM)

American counter culture...

[img]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_fxDn9OMe7QY/Se73dCB1ZYI/AAAAAAAAAXg/r3JeI23Dmww/s400/KFC.JPG[/img]




mikeyOfGeorgia -> RE: Where do you fit in the political spectrum? (2/10/2010 10:14:47 AM)

quote:

Where do you fit in the political spectrum?


how about anti-politics/anti-government?




mnottertail -> RE: Where do you fit in the political spectrum? (2/10/2010 10:25:30 AM)

that would be a 1, 1'





CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Where do you fit in the political spectrum? (2/10/2010 10:26:26 AM)

I think I fall somewhere between American Counter-Culture and Various Libertarians, occasionally drifting into the realms of "Welfare Liberals" and "Various Conservatives".

Basically, I think that it is healthy for human beings to care about doing quality work and expecting reasonable pay for the quality of their work, and that it should be up to the individual to set what xhe considers to be 'reasonable' pay, and up to the market to determine whether that is, in fact, reasonable. (The base definition of the 'free market')

It seems to me that the government's role should be protecting the country from invaders, whether that is by negotiation of treaties or by the development of a dedicated militia to handle the job, and protect its people from abuses by other individuals by punishing those who intentionally harm another person or destroy another person's belongings, and to contribute to the general welfare of the society through certain social constructs that support the community as a whole... assuring the community's health, and providing police/fire and a system of adjudication of tangible crimes (physical crimes and thefts of property and crimes resulting in harm to another human being, either directly or through neglect), while leaving intangible "crimes" to a private adjudication system (plagiarism/copyright infringment/patent infringement, theft of "intellectual property", etc.). Where I think I slip into the realm of "Welfare Liberals" is that I also think that this governmental responsibility should extend to things like health care and the judicial system, where farming these out to "for profit" industries does not serve the nation's welfare.

In return, people and businesses would be responsible for their own finances, and would accept that a basic level of governmental community service (to provide those services that are not beneficial to the public when run for profit) includes a need to -pay- for those services, either directly, through taxation, or through some combination of the above, so that the governmental budget -does- balance, each and every year... and I reinforce that the government should not be a resource to protect us from our own stupidity when it comes to fiscal responsibility or irresponsibility. One of the risks of business is that it comes with peaks and dips--and if an individual or group of individuals isn't willing to take on that reality, then perhaps they are not ready for the responsibilities of running a business.

I think that businesses should not be able to "incorporate" and become artificial persons to protect the company's leadership from taking responsibility for producing dangerous or poor-quality goods and passing them to an unsuspecting public, or for mis-handling company finances, or for being able to vote as a collective, using profits attained in the market, in a manner that would jeopardize the concept of government "by the people". If you give up individuality to assuage the risk of doing business, you should not be rewarded by extra voting opportunities in managing the government as a result.

Fiscal management (including the payment of taxes sufficient to cover the services of a streamlined governmental role) should be transparent -- the government's books should be able to be seen and 'balanced' by anyone able to do basic mathematics... and they should be able to BE balanced.

Emergency aid from the government should be limited to cases of natural disaster (fire, flood, etc.), not to shore up a failing economic model -- if the economic model is failing, then it is time for a new economic model, IMO.

Laws legislating morality, one way or the other (including laws that provide subsidies to those who marry -- regardless of the genders or number of individuals involved, and laws regulating the private use of substances within the confines of one's private domicile) would be stricken from the books, leaving only those laws where one's private behavior impacts the general public (ie., selling mind-altering or body-altering substances of -any- ilk to children, driving-under-the-influence laws, etc.). Such laws would be adjudicated under the auspices of "harm to another human being -- either willfully or by neglect" as noted above.

If I'm wrong about where that puts me on the spectrum, then I'm welcome to hearing other opinions of where I would sit.




Thadius -> RE: Where do you fit in the political spectrum? (2/10/2010 10:29:43 AM)

It seems to me that there should be a Z axis as well... Some folks are buried by the political spectrum and some are far above it watching it as if it were a televised football game. If you catch my drift.




HisSweetElysium -> RE: Where do you fit in the political spectrum? (2/10/2010 10:32:02 AM)

I voted for Kucinich the last time I had the option.  I think that puts me off the chart.




kdsub -> RE: Where do you fit in the political spectrum? (2/10/2010 10:32:44 AM)

I believe charts are useless to most Americans...at least for me. I grew up with a set of social mores...then as I grew older they changed from mostly liberal to mostly conservative...especially when I was raising a family and felt assaulted by taxes left and right.. Then As I grew older still I moved back more to the middle understanding how lucky I was compared to many less fortunate and thought help should and could be provided...IF we could afford it.

I still find myself in the middle on most issues...against abortion on a personal level but understand women should have control of their own bodies. And wish the anti abortionist would spend their money providing support for pregnant women that would give them options besides abortion.

I am against the mention of religion in government even though I am religious myself...I think religion is a private matter between myself God and my church. I do live by these beliefs but don't always expect others to do so.

I am always against war...always...but when unavoidable I believe we should go all out to fight or not fight at all.

When it comes to medical care we need to change the system as it is. We are falling behind many in the rest of the world in life expectancy. There is no excuse for it.

In economics I was not for the handouts to banks... I always felt they should fall if poorly run...Another bank would have bought up the assets no problem.

I am an economic protectionist...I feel our government should have been encouraging industry to stay in America rather than encouraging the bottom line. We have most of the raw materials we need for industry and could do just fine cut off from the slave labor in underdeveloped counties. Yes things could be more expensive but we would have better paying industrial jobs we no longer have in America. We would be safer as well because with heavy industry we could produce what is needed for another world war... Which will happen sooner or later.

I've not covered all my political stands but the above would fit nowhere on a chart because I change over time...as we all do.

Butch




windchymes -> RE: Where do you fit in the political spectrum? (2/10/2010 10:38:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Oh God, they have PhD's in "political science?"


Well, that explains why it's all fucked up, lol.




Fellow -> RE: Where do you fit in the political spectrum? (2/10/2010 12:07:15 PM)

I do not think anybody ( except fanatics "true believers) would fit under any particular category of the chart. I would represent a mixture of libertarian, conservative, counter culture  and maybe even adding a few socialist elements. Regarding the chart: I do not like it. Who would be for (pure) welfare state anyway?  What is realistically possible?  The social status often determines the views as many serve self-interest.  How much USA corporate plutocracy cares?




philosophy -> RE: Where do you fit in the political spectrum? (2/10/2010 12:30:55 PM)

FR

it's an interesting chart, but i tend to agree with Thadius that it needs a 'z' axis. Something along the lines of engagement, perhaps. 5 being highly politically active, 1 being politically apathetic.




SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Where do you fit in the political spectrum? (2/10/2010 12:34:44 PM)

Are you dangerous but good? Admit it commie!




MzMia -> RE: Where do you fit in the political spectrum? (2/10/2010 12:40:05 PM)

Wow what an interesting and fun thread, IB!
 
Using that chart, I find myself 3,3.
I am on that line that is going straight down the middle, horizontally and vertically.
Right where the blue statism line intersects with the rationalism line.

 
If you could put a small circle smack in the middle of that chart, that is where I would be.
 
 




SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: Where do you fit in the political spectrum? (2/10/2010 12:44:02 PM)

This is where we all are, in our heads at least.[:D]




mikeyOfGeorgia -> RE: Where do you fit in the political spectrum? (2/10/2010 12:44:17 PM)

i'm not on the scale...i don't believe in it [sm=hippie.gif]




MzMia -> RE: Where do you fit in the political spectrum? (2/10/2010 12:46:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

This is where we all are, in our heads at least.[:D]


No, I am in the middle, I am a Moderate, damn it!




CallaFirestormBW -> RE: Where do you fit in the political spectrum? (2/10/2010 12:58:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SL4V3M4YB3

This is where we all are, in our heads at least.[:D]


Nope, not me... I may be all over the place, but I'm not in the middle... It's more that I hop around depending on the issue at hand. *grins*




LadyEllen -> RE: Where do you fit in the political spectrum? (2/10/2010 1:39:21 PM)

I think the Y axis would be better described in terms of whether one believes society can cooperate in improving conditions or whether one believes that society is a competitive theatre whereby progress is achieved through market forces/ "survival of the fittest".

This makes things difficult for me however, in that although I'd like to think we might cooperate, the world around me suggests that the alternative is more often the case and this regardless of the prevailing political model. And rather than cancelling one another out, these two positions rather leave me with a foot on both sides of the Y axis where its bisected by the X.

Similarly, though I distrust the intentions of government and would wish for it to be as small as possible, the dog eat dog nature of the world around indicates to me that frequent government intervention to regulate things is necessary to limit and control what are the effects of nature all in all, in the excesses of the strong over the weak. Again this doesnt leave me in the centre, but puts me on both sides of the line at once, depending on the specifics of any situation.

I think what such a graph might prove useful for - in the context of my own situation specific positions - would be to identify those whose positions are more driven by a fixed ideology than a flexible, practical approach?

E




Moonhead -> RE: Where do you fit in the political spectrum? (2/10/2010 1:43:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Oh God, they have PhD's in "political science?"

That isn't even the worst of it: the wanker got a job at NASA with that mickey mouse qualification.




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