RE: Legally Illegal?

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Mercnbeth -> RE: Legally Illegal? (4/4/2006 11:04:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyEvilBych " Mexico deals with it's poor by exporting them to the USA where they will be exploited. They provide maps, comics, and care packages to help them on their journey." Please tell me that you do not seriously believe this??? Would like me to tell you what its REALLY like on their journey to the US? Some are forced to come here by their parents as children....BUT STILL illegal. They are shoved into a van packed with 30 others in the dead of night, driving through the desert with NO lights on, with a man hanging his head out of the window driving 90 miles an hour. They watch young girls be raped by the coyotes, some suffer from heat exhaustion, death, torture, robbery, they pass by the skeletons of otherwise healthy individuals who died crossing the desert. And what about the kids? the kids who are illegal and brought to the US when they are 12 yrs old and have no choice...but now they are grown and because they didn't stay in Mexico till they were 18 to get Identification, they basically do not exist? They are STUCK. They are now illegal in 2 countries. They didn't ask to come here. Now they just want to do the right thing, Be legal, work hard, have a family, obey the law, but how do they do that? can you tell me? this happened to my husband. He hardly speaks Spanish at all anymore, we are married, and have 1 child. I am a RN, and we live in a middle class neighborhood...YES we pay taxes...YES we pay for insurance. Where is the exception to the rule? what about these people who suffer. I am so sick of this debate..because its always the debate and opinion of people who have NEVER lived this....When you find someone who was given a care package, a comic and a pat on the back... Id like to meet them. Happy to have you on board wanting to stop these terrible things from occurring. Hope to see you out there campaigning for more border patrols that will make sure these people don't have to suffer as you correctly point out. Happy to have you agree with my position regarding the exploitation of these people. Hope you will help do something to stop it. Regarding the highlighted part of your quote - The same way some of my employees came here, the same way my grandparents came here; LEGALLY, completing the proper paperwork, waiting the appropriate time, and going through the long drawn out, but LEGAL process. Also, regarding the second, because people haven't broken the law it doesn't mean they shouldn't be against law breakers. Sorry that you husband's family did that to him, but his status and the circumstance of his illegal entry into the USA shouldn't put him in a more advantageous position than the many millions of people and their families who are attempting to gain citizenship status through legal means. Rationalizing illegal activity by the situation of the person result in rationalizing every illegal act and results in lawlessness. Again, should he be "more equal" because of his particular suffering versus someone from Iraq, who didn't have the benefit of being born in a country bordering the USA where, after traumatic entry, as long as they don't get caught there is no consequence?

GreedyEvilBych -> RE: Legally Illegal? (4/4/2006 4:43:04 PM)
but you didnt address the part about the comics and care package....so I assume that you didnt actually believe that but that it was sarcasm...hopefully anyway. I hate Mexicos goverment if youd like to call it that...but we have spent thousands of dollars. traveled to Texas and Atlanta to the INS had meetings etc...and because he is a foreign national, the only thing he can do to become legal is to go back over there and hope to get a visa....which is NOT possible for our family. I absolutely do believe there should be stipulations for children who are here now and are left stuck more or less, I most certainly do believe there lifestyle and history should be taken into accomodation.... I do not support the ideas of those making it a felony, and althought impossible, it would be nice for those with such strong opinions to live it, have family who lives it, etc...because if they were in this same situation, I think the opinions would be different. I mean OF COURSE they would be lol. Have a great night everyone.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Legally Illegal? (4/4/2006 5:20:15 PM)
quote: but you didnt address the part about the comics and care package..../quote] Sorry, here is a link providing not only a copy of the comic in question, but commentary: I really, really, really wish it was sarcasm. Sometimes reality is even more sarcastic than I can make up. quote: In December the Mexican government officially released a comic book that sanctions illegal aliens crossing our southern border. They claim it is to help migrant worker with the title The Guide for the Mexican Migrant, but upon viewing the comic book it shows illegal aliens crossing the Rio Grande, trapsing through Arizona,avoiding border patrol agents and instructs them on how to hide in American society so they aren't caught. Source: http://www.diggersrealm.com/mt/archives/000613.html There is an on-line version of the comic book at the Mexican government website here. You can also download a copy of the comic book here(758K PDF file) Again, sorry to hear your situation, however; "the only thing he can do to become legal is to go back over there and hope to get a visa", may not be possible, but it would be the same situation as everyone else desiring US citizenship. Your situation was created by influences outside of your control and the control of your husbands, but ultimately before now, you both made additional decisions that placed you in the current condition. Just because I can't empathize doesn't mean I can't sympathize. Pragmatically, reality is harsh, but just like the comics it exists.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Legally Illegal? (4/5/2006 11:59:13 AM)
Supporters who want to join the fight against the exploitation of illegal aliens should make sure they go out tonight to a big buffet dinner. It seems that Cardinal Mahony, from LA wants to continue the current status: quote: Mahony asked all members of the Los Angeles Archdiocese to designate Wednesday as a special day of prayer and fasting for immigrants. The cardinal has in the past directed his parish to disobey any laws that would criminalize people who provide aid to illegal immigrants. Source: http://www.dailybreeze.com/news/articles/2566446.html Apparently, after nearly bankrupting the diocese defending the pedophile priests, he wants to reload the church coffers with the pennies from these poor people. A quick way to increase the tax base in the US would be to eliminate the exemption provided to "religious" groups that involve themselves in political matters. The separation of church and state shouldn't come into play when the "church" wants to effect the laws of the "state".

poweredup1 -> RE: Legally Illegal? (4/5/2006 12:38:41 PM)
Your indictment of military spending and, by association, the military-industrial complex as the principal culprits in America's demise originated in the 1960s (wait, shouldn't it have already happened??) and has been parroted ever since as the genesis of all societal ails. While in college, the hackneyed argument raised my blood pressure. Today, it elicits little more than a yawn.

Chaingang -> RE: Legally Illegal? (4/5/2006 4:37:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: poweredup1 ...(wait, shouldn't it have already happened??)... Your understanding of civil rights would seem to leave much to be desired. Thanks for playing, troll!

Mercnbeth -> RE: Legally Illegal? (4/9/2006 9:13:27 AM)
What is the reason anyone can have to support continuing illegal immigration into the US? The illegal immigrants are exploited, the US taxpayers are exploited, the US poor and underprivileged must share the meager social services with illegal immigrants, the public school systems are factories for failure. Who benefits? Are our "leaders" out of touch with the vast majority? Are there people, without personal issues, who want to see the continuation of the exploitation at the expense of the US taxpayer? I live in a state with 2 of the most liberal senators in the US. But I contacted each with a letter saying that I do NOT need to have illegal immigration criminalized but I do support making anyone who hires an illegal a criminal. That tactic may get their attention. Do you have any unmentionable who is going to college or wants to go to college? Do you support the entitlement a foreign citizen over a US citizen? Have you written and called your Congressional representative and/or Senator? quote: After the Senate Judiciary Committee approved and distributed a proposal for granting legal status to many undocumented aliens, conservatives were alarmed to discover that the 471-page bill makes illegal aliens eligible for in-state tuition costs. Under the proposal, illegals could pay the low tuition charged students who attend state universities in their home state, while legal residents of the U.S. would still be required to pay the much higher costs charged students who attend schools outside their state, the Washington Times reports. "This means that while American citizens from Tennessee, Georgia, South Carolina, Massachusetts have to pay out-of-state tuition rates if they send their kids to the University of Virginia or the University of Alabama, people who have illegally immigrated into the country do not," said Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala. "How much sense does that make, to have people here illegally and they have more benefits than those who are here legally?" Nine states allow illegal aliens to pay the in-state tuition rates, but the provision is under challenge in those states. If the new bill passes "the American taxpayers will be forced to pay for illegal aliens to replace their own children in the limited seats in college," said William Gheen of Americans for Legal Immigration. "Professional polls in North Carolina show over 81 percent opposition to in-state tuition for illegal aliens. "It is bad enough the Senate is proposing guest worker amnesty. Now they want us to pay college tuition for illegal aliens!" Source: http://www.alipac.us.

ArtCatDom -> RE: Legally Illegal? (4/9/2006 4:14:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet What I find interesting is that illegal imigration into the USA is a federal matter. Local police and even State Troopers are not allowed to arrest or even detain them untill imigration arrives. If an when an illegal imigrant is pulled over for speeding, the officer can only issue a ticket and can now tow the vehicle if it's not insured. Assuming that the person is an illegal imigrant is just speculation. A phone call can be made to imigration but that's the most that the officer can do. I find it funny how often packages and ATM machines have forign language to read when so many of our illegal imigrants can't read. On the ATM machines, it always ask first which language I perfer before I continue with my transaction. Another second of time wasted on BS. The queston always read english. How is someone suppose to answer the question to begin with if the ATM machine always starts off in English? Even if you push the Espanol button, all that's left are numbers to push so what's the point? You assertion is actually false. Under common law systems like our own, police can arrest and detain someone who crimes "above their jurisdiction". For example, state police and courts aren't the common enforcers of State laws, but rather local police and courts absorb most of the burden. State and local police have every right to arrest and detain someone for a federal offense until they can be transferred to federal holding. Usually, such as in the case of RICO ("organized crime") laws, local officers will contact the FBI for assistance. This is both a matter of etiquette and to ensure the federal agents have enough evidence for conviction. States don't do it because the federal government gives them very limited compensation. In fact, that's a huge issue in California's relationship with the Fed right now. Honestly, if you want to see States get their ass in gear, deny them all federal funding for law enforcement and prisons unless they will detain illegal immigrants and transfer them to federal custody for deportation. meow

ArtCatDom -> RE: Legally Illegal? (4/9/2006 4:32:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Someone help me with this please? Confusion is raining in my pragmatic brain. If you are in the country illegally how can you openly and VERY publicly protest about the consequences of your illegal action becoming more serious? How can the police that are being paid by citizen's taxes, protect versus verify, and if here illegally, collect them and taking them back across the border? The issue is the criminalization of illegal aliens and the employment thereof. Because this would seriously harm the lives of hardworking people and their families throughout the Americas, they protest. Its a sign of the USA's public health that you see a protest here, for if all those people were rounded up and sent to a GULUG, we'd be living in a semi-fascist police state. Illegal aliens working in the USA trying to support their families back home already live with enough anxiety and fear. Why would you want to compound their situation? The anxiety and fear they feel is because they are here illegitimately. Are they hardworking? Sure. Are they supporting their families? Sure. Doesn't matter to me. Trying to frame them in "honest, hardworking, law-abiding people" context is just a load of bull. They are not honest. They are not law-abiding. (Not a quote from you, but that is exactly the rhetorical purpose of framing them as honest and hard working.) Our Constitutional and common law ethics give us no compunction to accept them or forgive them. Mexico can be a very shitty place to live. I can understand that. So can be Somalia, Lebanon, Pakistan, Croatia, Russia and host of other countries. What gives illegal immigrants the right to flood our migrant market making people on often already long waiting lists wait even longer? quote: Yes, why would anyone want to argue about fairness if they can just deal in legalities. And, how will young children grow to appreciate "laws" when they are unfair? You want to talk about fair, tell me how fair it is that farm workers make dramatically less money because illegal migrants depress their wages. Tell me how fair it is the same workers make more up my way (fewer illegal immigrants) than in South California (far more illegals) where the cost of living is much higher. Tell me how fair it is for those HONEST people waiting on a legitimate list to be skipped by illegal immigrants. Tell me how fair it is for us to spend money on the education and health maintenance of illegals when Appalachia wallows in squalor. Tell me how fair it is to a trades worker trying to support his own family when an illegal immigrant will do his job for far less than a living wage. Tell me how fair it is. meow

ArtCatDom -> RE: Legally Illegal? (4/9/2006 4:51:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kass3 It makes me feel sick how you speak about these 'illegal' people as if by merely being where they are they deserve to be punished. As if the only option in relation to this issue is locking them up or keeping them out. Have you wondered why they will risk all this to get into your country? If you don't want them in your country then be humane and help them stay in their own nation, offer aid, trade agreements, support their economy with your own much stronger one. Your nation is supported in a large way by much poorer countries including those of South American, without them your food and other cheaply made product would be more expensive, your oportunites in life would be less accordingly. I'm sorry if I offended anyone by making judgements of your nation that you probably feel are unjust but I hope I showed you that equal judgements should be given about my own nation. It's easy to say...my nation, my home, my priorities...but think about this your home is this planet and with that comes responcibilities to it and it's people... quality of life...it's imprtant to improve the quality of life of all people, not just those living within a political border. Briefly addressing your earlier part of the post, I find detention centers to be foul. We in the United States have done much the same with "boat people" from Haiti. It utterly sickens me. I believe the main solution to the problem is ensuring reguee camps have much more sanitary and humane conditions on one hand. On the other, I believe properly funding the review process so people spend a maximum of 3-6 months in such confinement is essential. The end of your post I utterly and 100% agree with. I'm a huge fan of doing vastly expanded trade within the Americas. The problem is the United States has in the past taken an imperialist stance towards the Americas. We've engaged in multiple military actions based on the needs of our corporations. We have also toppled dozens of democratic, federalist and republican systems throughout the Caribbean, as well as Central and South America. We have in the past tried to assassinate the now-President of Venezeula. It doesn't help that for our foreign policy towards countries in the Americas, it may as well still be the Cold War. We need to ensure that basic human rights are respected, basic workers' protections implemented and basic envrionment laws enforced in all of those countries. This alone will raise the living standards of many in such nations. We need to additionally invest in infrastructure and humanitarian aid to these nations. This will help them modernize, will assist in mobility and again raise the living standards. These two are a pair, the first being gained by the second. We should look at forming substantive regional alliances, economic, political and military. South America can produce a vast amount of coal, oil and precious metals. We could easily reduce our dependance on such resources from troublesome regions by forging stronger alliances within our own region. We should ADMIT our mistakes and wrongdoings to the Americas. We need to reach out to leaders who we've harmed and alienated in the past such as the leadership of Cuba and Hugo Chavez. We need to reach out to the populations most badly harmed by our policies such as Afro-Caribbeans and mestizos (latino native americans). I do see such policies being implemented under strong national borders, strong national identities and strict enforcement of immigration policies. However, as conditions improve we could form economic and immigrations arrangements similar to that of the European Economic Area. I see no problems with free trade and free immigration with Canada for example. meow

ArtCatDom -> RE: Legally Illegal? (4/9/2006 5:10:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyEvilBych but you didnt address the part about the comics and care package....so I assume that you didnt actually believe that but that it was sarcasm...hopefully anyway. I hate Mexicos goverment if youd like to call it that...but we have spent thousands of dollars. traveled to Texas and Atlanta to the INS had meetings etc...and because he is a foreign national, the only thing he can do to become legal is to go back over there and hope to get a visa....which is NOT possible for our family. I absolutely do believe there should be stipulations for children who are here now and are left stuck more or less, I most certainly do believe there lifestyle and history should be taken into accomodation.... I do not support the ideas of those making it a felony, and althought impossible, it would be nice for those with such strong opinions to live it, have family who lives it, etc...because if they were in this same situation, I think the opinions would be different. I mean OF COURSE they would be lol. Have a great night everyone. Someone is giving you the run around. Contact an immigration lawyer. YOU will need to file an afadavit of support and YOU will need to apply for your husband to receive an immigrant via number. (You will need to show your household is above 125% of the poverty level, but if you can afford insurance, you're surely above that.) You may need to appeal this process. Once he has his number, he can apply himself to adjust to permanent resident status, as he is married to a citizen and already living in the States. The United States has an almost turnkey process for aliens resident in the States and married to a U.S. Citizen. In a situation such as yours where you have been married sometime and have a child, the process is greatly simplified during the interview process. Please contact an immigration lawyer licensed by the Bar Association of your State of residence. Please tell them you wish to file an affavit of support and a petition for an immigrant visa for your husband. I am sure they can help. meow

Mercnbeth -> RE: Legally Illegal? (4/17/2006 10:04:05 AM)
"Nationalism" is creeping back into European politics. Illegal immigrates are a target in France. Unable to enforce their laws, and with riots breaking out in the streets in support of entitlement programs France can no longer afford, the French at least want to spend their money on their own citizens. The impotency of the French military seems to also be pervasive in their police. In lieu of enforcement they resort to bribery. Except once again with riots in the streets, no jobs, and no future; France must still be better than their country of origin. Eight months into the program, only 200 took them up on the offer. Wonder how many of these snuck back? quote: France's Plan: Pay 'Em To Go Home As demonstrations intensify and legislation stalls in the U.S. over the status of illegal immigrants, France has been taking another tack. It's offering cash payments -- the equivalent of about $2,400 per adult and $600 per child -- to illegals who agree to return to their native countries. The government began to offer the payments last September but so far has found fewer than 200 takers. Now, law-and-order Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy is urging officials to cut the program's red tape to make participation easier, according to the French daily Le Figaro, which obtained a copy of an Interior Ministry memo sent to local officials. But critics say the payments are too low to entice many of France's estimated 400,000 illegals to say adieu. Meanwhile, France is getting tougher on those who don't leave voluntarily. Since 2002, the number of illegals expelled annually from the country has doubled, to 20,000 last year. At the same time, Sarkozy is spearheading legislation to make it easier for well-educated, highly skilled immigrants to enter the country. Sarkozy, the front-runner in the 2007 French presidential race, is himself the son of an immigrant. His father fled communist Hungary in 1949 and was granted refugee status in France.Source: http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_17/c3981003.htm#ZZZUH714ZLE

Mercnbeth -> RE: Legally Illegal? (4/19/2006 6:52:27 AM)
Reciprocity is always one of the best ways to deal with the policies of others. In the case of relationships it's best to treat others how you'd like to be treated. More often than not, your attitude and sentiments about people are formed by their attitude and treatment of you. The solution of the illegal immigrant problem may be as simple as applying that same philosophy to the issue. In Mexico this is the official government policy regarding people who are illegally in their country: quote: Considered felons by the government, these migrants fear detention, rape and robbery. Police and soldiers hunt them down at railroads, bus stations and fleabag hotels. Sometimes they are deported; more often officers simply take their money. The level of brutality Central American migrants face in Mexico was apparent Monday, when police conducting a raid for undocumented migrants near a rail yard outside Mexico City shot to death a local man, apparently because his dark skin and work clothes made officers think he was a migrant. And while Mexicans denounce the criminalization of their citizens living without papers in the United States, Mexican law classifies undocumented immigration as a felony punishable by up to two years in prison, although deportation is more common. Source: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/MEXICO_MISTREATING_MIGRANTS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2006-04-18-18-08-31 [/quote]

ArtCatDom -> RE: Legally Illegal? (4/19/2006 3:24:56 PM)
You hit the nail on the head. How can anyone take President Fox's demands for "human treatment" of illegals in the United States seriously? I'm a fan of goose and gander standards. meow

IronBear -> RE: Legally Illegal? (4/19/2006 4:21:07 PM)
Sounds like the Queensland Police department was trained in LA…. Sunny Queensland the Red neck capital of Australia. (If you weren’t born here or lived most of your life here, you just don’t count).. Queensland is known to be the state where the obeying of the law is voluntary and selective on which laws you will follow. Hell we even have a Police Force who most will tell you that in Queensland Federal Law does not count! I arrested 18 Queensland Police Officers one night for obstructing an operation I was running under Federal law (Drug Investigation and bust). Those cops were disarmed and building ties were used to restrain them with one cop forcing me to wound him in the arse for attempting to disarm me.. Until recently in my area 60% of the cars were unroadworthy and thus illegal and of these 25% were unregistered.. Why? The local Police were instructed by the superiors not to rock the boat of the ethnic groups and young adults….People wonder why I believe in policing my home myself and not calling the police to collect juvenile offenders or anyone else.

RiotGirl -> RE: Legally Illegal? (4/19/2006 9:21:24 PM)
Well, i read most of the first page, but skipped the second Cant deal with too much politics other wise i get fairly inflamed! LOL For what its worth - i have never respected the laws or the US and frankly wont teach my unmentionable to. i will teach her what is smart. Frankly, i think its unjust to expect me to follow and up hold when those that swore an oath to serve and protect cant even uphold the laws they are serving. Sorry but when i see a large number of police break laws left and right.. and on top of that our government breaking laws left and right.. yeah they arent so important. But i suppose my feelings come from the goverment/police screwing me over and screwing with my life because they cant uphold a law. Ever watched a cop purger himself on the witness stand, literally lie through his teeth and you able to do nothing as you've no proof and go to jail for 6 months because of it? What do you do? They're cops and have sworn to uphold, who'd eeeeeever think they wouldnt? ha. BS at the best Who can respect a country and its laws when it was soley responsible for the import of herion after the end of WW1 or WW2 (cant remember) Who can respect a country and its laws when it could literally put an end to crime, actually have the major crime organizations and proof, everything they need for court AND the offending criminals in its own country but just "let it go" i've been watching those who swore to uphold the laws break them so often since i was young that it doesnt suprise me anymore. Nor am i shocked or outrage, infact i'm actually suprised when others are. Personally, i think its quite normal. When that chick was on life support where ever it was, it was lawfully wrong for them to kill her. Suicide is illegal as is murder. Shocked and outraged that they allowed it? Not one bit, just suprised and abit amused that others are able to see our government for what i've always known it to be. A legalised form of the mafia. i suppose being a daughter of a two parents that were highly involved with the government, one being a retired naval captian and the other being a high ranking Agent of U.S. Customs does that for you. the laws are a joke.. our government is a joke.. and the sooner you realise it the better off you are. People are sooooooo suprised that they were lied to about the Iraq war. LOLOL Dont you realise that the Governments main policy is "deny deny deny"?

MistressDREAD -> RE: Legally Illegal? (4/22/2006 10:27:13 AM)
I find it totally amusing that We argue such ignorant issues here with any. FYI there were serveral FATHERS OF THE CONSTITUTION who were NOT American and could of been concidered illigal aliens by today standards but still assisted in writing it. ThankYou Top Hat and Cane for saying what I would of. Sometimes a outside looking in prospective is the best one. The Constititution was written by those who came here befor America was established and if the Folks who were allready here had any immigration laws in effect as today, not one of the founding Fathers would of had a chance to become * American * or even write the constitution that protected Them All. quote: Confusion is raining in my pragmatic brain. Think about THAT Mercnbeth, that should bring the other confusion into prospective.........(Visions the Founding Fathers all sittin behind bars.....scoffs and laughs at My minds eye....)

Mercnbeth -> RE: Legally Illegal? (4/22/2006 5:54:52 PM)
quote: Think about THAT Mercnbeth, that should bring the other confusion into prospective.........(Visions the Founding Fathers all sittin behind bars.....scoffs and laughs at My minds eye....) Dread, Go back to 1776 or so and have them arrested. But the British would have had them killed. Speak of 2006 and illegal entry. into a sovereign nation. Maybe get the sand out of your eye.

MistressDREAD -> RE: Legally Illegal? (4/22/2006 7:13:41 PM)
past or present it makes no differance the issue Mercnbeth. Its still the same issue. If You seen sand in My eye Mercnbeth why dident You get it out? Jez cant depend on You to protect My eyes can I ? LOL.

feastie -> RE: Legally Illegal? (4/23/2006 8:32:54 AM)
Personally, I have assisted several individuals with their green card applications and all were given legal status. It just happened to be a part of a job I once held. So, I know that it can be done and without too much trouble. (Some, but it's not insurrmountable). I genuinely feel sorry for people that feel that they have to resort to the things that illegal aliens do to get into the country. But that doesn't mean I support what they are doing. I'm sorry, but if one is here illegally, he has no right to protest, to the welfare system, etc. He needs to make it right, whatever it takes. If that means heading back where he came from, so be it. Life's tough and the US ain't your mama.

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