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RE: No limit slaves - 3/28/2006 12:48:42 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo


Also another great examples of how we can't take for granted when any one term means because we each will use them differently.

For me, a submissive's first duty would be to obey; the slave's is to make life easier and better.


And i can only accomplish that by obeying.  i may have an idea of what i think will benefit him, but i will always ask before just doing something (unless of course it's something like writing him a story, which he so enjoys, or buying him a little gift).  When i ask, he decides.  When he has decided, i obey that decision.  i do strive to make his life easier & better, but i think you have the cart before the horse here.  i accomplish that in my obedience. 

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: No limit slaves - 3/28/2006 1:45:09 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		I do not want a slave who will disobey me for my own good.  I want a slave who will explain to me why she thinks obeying me will not be in my best interest--and will then obey if do not change my mind after listening to her.

Thetammyjo, I'm afraid you are missing just about every point there is to miss here.  "The legal better be important" is not a response to what we are saying.  The fact that there are people who are prepared to break the law for their master has nothing to do with the question of whether a judge and jury will sympathize with them if they are arrested for it.  Conflating those two is about as bad as saying that there cannot be any thieves in the world because larceny is against the law.

But it's not too surprising that this issue marks a major fork in the road, because it's also the exact point where I part company with the Safe-Sane-Consensual crowd.  If you don't want to take our path, don't take it.  Just please don't tell us that we must be insane or that we cannot exist.

Lam

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: No limit slaves - 3/28/2006 1:48:28 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
I do not want a slave who will disobey me for my own good.  

I'd disobey for a lot of people's good.  Let's say my master told me to sit and be quiet outside a cafe one day.  I could see a robber and be able to shout to someone to watch out or get help or run to a nearby police person.

Or I could see someone about to walk in front of a car and be able to shout at them or yank them up.  I'd even do this if I perhaps were carrying things for my owner and it would require me to drop them- thus creating more work and perhaps damaging things that belong to my owner.

I wouldn't even THINK or PROCESS it, I'd just do it. 

I'd be willing to disobey just for total stranger.  If that makes me a bad slave, I'm ok with that.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: No limit slaves - 3/28/2006 1:53:46 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Unless you were told to sit outside and be quiet even if you witness a crime, or unless you were told not to drop your bags if someone is about to be hit by a car, neither of those is an example of disobeying.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I'd disobey for a lot of people's good.  Let's say my master told me to sit and be quiet outside a cafe one day.  I could see a robber and be able to shout to someone to watch out or get help or run to a nearby police person.

Or I could see someone about to walk in front of a car and be able to shout at them or yank them up.  I'd even do this if I perhaps were carrying things for my owner and it would require me to drop them- thus creating more work and perhaps damaging things that belong to my owner.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: No limit slaves - 3/28/2006 1:58:35 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
I'd disobey for a lot of people's good.  Let's say my master told me to sit and be quiet outside a cafe one day.  I could see a robber and be able to shout to someone to watch out or get help or run to a nearby police person.

Or I could see someone about to walk in front of a car and be able to shout at them or yank them up.  I'd even do this if I perhaps were carrying things for my owner and it would require me to drop them- thus creating more work and perhaps damaging things that belong to my owner.

I wouldn't even THINK or PROCESS it, I'd just do it. 

I'd be willing to disobey just for total stranger.  If that makes me a bad slave, I'm ok with that.


If i did that i would be obeying the command to have common sense.  ;)

On the flip side, one night my Master was talking to me and said "Stand there." as he had me stand by the bed while he lay down to talk.  In the course of talking, he fell asleep....and did not wake up until morning...and saw me standing there.  Some might call that foolish.  But the look on his face and his ensuing remarks about dedication and devotion and obedience, and his own pride...well, i didn't feel so foolish.  He told me later i could have given any number of excuses for just laying down and going to sleep, but i didn't.  Some could say that didn't make his life better because he had a tired slave who would not be able to fulfill his plans for me that morning.  But he said his life was better by knowing what kind of slave he had.


(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: No limit slaves - 3/28/2006 2:01:35 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Unless you were told to sit outside and be quiet even if you witness a crime, or unless you were told not to drop your bags if someone is about to be hit by a car, neither of those is an example of disobeying.

But it's not the slaves job to interpret conditions, or what is "reasonably disobedient", and there's no possible way to account for all conditions.  I'd still be disobeying, even if retroactively he decided it was the right thing to do.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: No limit slaves - 3/28/2006 2:08:39 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Unless you were told to sit outside and be quiet even if you witness a crime, or unless you were told not to drop your bags if someone is about to be hit by a car, neither of those is an example of disobeying.


I disagree. It is disobeying. You are given a direct order, you fail to follow that order, how can it be anything else? It's doubtful that a Master is going to make a slave suffer a consequence for that disobedience, but it's disobedience nonetheless.

Celeste

edited to add: I didn't see LA's post.. so, what she said.

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 3/28/2006 2:09:55 PM >

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: No limit slaves - 3/28/2006 2:09:16 PM   
ownedgirlie


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Status: offline 		i think you are being too literal.  i am required to exercise common sense, particularly in emergency situations.  i am required to think.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: No limit slaves - 3/28/2006 2:35:06 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:




On the flip side, one night my Master was talking to me and said "Stand there." as he had me stand by the bed while he lay down to talk.  In the course of talking, he fell asleep....and did not wake up until morning...and saw me standing there.  Some might call that foolish.  But the look on his face and his ensuing remarks about dedication and devotion and obedience, and his own pride...well, i didn't feel so foolish.  




I know exactly how you feel. Something very similar has happened a few times with Himself telling me to do something, then getting distracted only to come back later and find me still doing whatever he had told me to do.  I think that's why I related so much to the Secretary when she sat down at the desk. When Himself and I saw that movie, he sort of laughed and said something like.. you'd do that. Hell, I have bladder issues because of my endo.. I pee myself all the time.. especially if I'm sneezing lol..  it's not an issue, and being still isn't one either. Now, I'm not saying that not eating for three days wouldn't cause me to faint, but that's the body, not the mind which is balking. I do have low blood sugar. ::chuckles::

Wanted to mention one more thing about obedience and limits while I'm thinking about it. There are things which I am not capable of doing.. I'd call them limits, but really, they are impossibles.. and my own have to do with things which are medical in nature. I can't do the impossible even though I'd like to.. oh, turn invisible, be able to fly, run a three minute mile ... I just can't. When I talk about limits, it's in the context of my mental state.. what does my 'mind' prevent me from doing just because it may squick me, turn me off what have you.. and there is, virtually, nothing which Himself will order that my mind will balk at which is physically possible for me to do.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: No limit slaves - 3/28/2006 2:41:29 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		This is not as complicated as it seems.  It has to do with a concept called "implicature."  Ordinarily I might not bring up something like this, but LA has her philosophy B.A., so I know she'll follow.   It's from a philosopher named H. Paul Grice.

Take the statement "There are three dishes on that table."  Strictly speaking, that statement is true if there are three OR MORE dishes on the table (think about it, if there are four dishes on the table, there are also three dishes on the table), but it is ordinarily understood to mean "there are three AND PRECISELY three dishes on that table."  When you hear someone say something like that, you understand, by implicature, that there are three and no more than three dishes on the table.

Commands are subject to the same kinds of implications.  If the command was to wait outside the cafe and stay silent even if you witness a crime, then in your example, yelling at a robber would be disobedience.  But if the command was simply to wait outside the cafe and be quiet, that does not specify whether the slave is supposed to do this under any and all circumstances, or merely under ordinary and foreseeable circumstances.  It is up to the slave to understand what is meant, and up to the master to make sure that the slave understands.  Whether ANYONE ELSE understands is utterly irrelevant.

Commands need not be verbal and, even if they are verbal, are not free of implications like any other statement.  Whoever said that slaves do not interpret their masters' commands was wrong.  All communication, of any kind, requires interpretation.  There is no command that is perfectly unambiguous in all possible situations.  It is a master's reponsibility to make sure that his commands allow for the least possible degree of uncertainty, and the slave's responsibility to understand, to the best of her ability, what the master intends.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: No limit slaves - 3/28/2006 2:48:29 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Wanted to mention one more thing about obedience and limits while I'm thinking about it. There are things which I am not capable of doing.. I'd call them limits, but really, they are impossibles.. and my own have to do with things which are medical in nature. I can't do the impossible even though I'd like to.. oh, turn invisible, be able to fly, run a three minute mile ... I just can't. When I talk about limits, it's in the context of my mental state.. what does my 'mind' prevent me from doing just because it may squick me, turn me off what have you.. and there is, virtually, nothing which Himself will order that my mind will balk at which is physically possible for me to do.

Celeste


~ chuckles ~ yeah, i've had a few of those "Secretary" scenarios...lol.  ....drifts off as i remember some.....lol

Yeah and he can tell me to get into a size 2 dress and that's an impossibility, too!  :)  Well, unless he wanted it ripped open at the seams...but then he might like that...heh

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: No limit slaves - 3/28/2006 2:50:04 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Commands need not be verbal and, even if they are verbal, are not free of implications like any other statement.  Whoever said that slaves do not interpret their masters' commands was wrong.  All communication, of any kind, requires interpretation.  There is no command that is perfectly unambiguous in all possible situations.  It is a master's reponsibility to make sure that his commands allow for the least possible degree of uncertainty, and the slave's responsibility to understand, to the best of her ability, what the master intends.

I agree, and in a reasonable relationship, I take orders to mean "do what I'm telling you, except in cases where obviously other values take priority over obedience."

However, it's still a judgement call.  And I might be called to task for it.  The dom could say it's his fault for not making sure I understood the circumstances, but again, you can't account for all circumstances. 

And in a forum like this where you really DO have masters saying that they want blind unquestioning obedience and if he tells her to jump off that moving truck, she better well jump...I think nuances like this become quite important.



_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: No limit slaves - 3/28/2006 2:52:45 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		Yes, exactly.  Communication cannot be perfect, and there can be misunderstandings that are no one's fault.  If misunderstandings persist or are systematic, then someone has to change something.  But there will be misunderstandings even under the best of circumstances.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

However, it's still a judgement call.  And I might be called to task for it.  The dom could say it's his fault for not making sure I understood the circumstances, but again, you can't account for all circumstances. 

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: No limit slaves - 3/28/2006 2:53:06 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Commands are subject to the same kinds of implications.  If the command was to wait outside the cafe and stay silent even if you witness a crime, then in your example, yelling at a robber would be disobedience.  But if the command was simply to wait outside the cafe and be quiet, that does not specify whether the slave is supposed to do this under any and all circumstances, or merely under ordinary and foreseeable circumstances.  It is up to the slave to understand what is meant, and up to the master to make sure that the slave understands.  Whether ANYONE ELSE understands is utterly irrelevant.



Bingo.  And therefore it is not up to ANYONE ELSE (i only capped that cuz you did, lol) to determine whether or not i have limits, or if i am obedient, or if i am making my Master's life better.  If i were told to wait quietly outside a cafe, i know with no doubts it is implied by him that such instruction would be under ordinary circumstances.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: No limit slaves - 3/28/2006 3:01:33 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross


And in a forum like this where you really DO have masters saying that they want blind unquestioning obedience and if he tells her to jump off that moving truck, she better well jump...I think nuances like this become quite important.




i see your point here, regarding the case of new submissives talking to an unknown Dominant.  i was speaking for myself, in a long term, stable relationship.  If i can insert yet another thought. :)   In my situation there is no "blind" obedience because i am equipped with all the knowledge i need to have to bring me to trust enough to obey.  So all obedience, even if unhesitated (is that a word?!), has my eyes wide open.

Not trying to be argumentative with that, but that thought always comes to mind when i see the term "blind obedience." 

:)


(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: No limit slaves - 3/28/2006 3:13:07 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:


However, it's still a judgement call.  And I might be called to task for it.  The dom could say it's his fault for not making sure I understood the circumstances, but again, you can't account for all circumstances. 




There are reflex reactions that can't be helped, like I throw my arm over the passenger if I suddenly brake while driving. It's done without thought. My arm isn't going to stop anyone from going through the window in the event of an accident.. the seatbelt is. I know this, but that arm flies out anyway. Instincts are a fact of life, and instincts are going to come into play and that fact makes me stop for a moment and reflect on instinct vs conditioning. I am conditioned to freeze on command.. my instinct would be to jump out of the way of an on-coming car.. would the voice of Himself yelling freeze at me stop that instinct?

I wonder.. curious and not sure how one could experiment. ::chuckles::

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: No limit slaves - 3/28/2006 3:25:33 PM   
SimplyV


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtoFemDommes

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyV
I start thinking of "limits" that this "no limits" person probably has..  like.. Amputations, Death.. Then I start getting creative..

Like..
<snip> "You will be forced to work a suit and tie deskjob at least 60 hours a week"


Alright, i think the "real" sadist around here has been revealed!  Geeze, is there no decency?


I know.. and people still seem to always mistake me for the cute cuddly one, and totally miss out that I'm truely evil.

*shrugs*  I just don't get it. 

(in reply to subtoFemDommes)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: No limit slaves - 3/28/2006 7:24:52 PM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:


Also another great examples of how we can't take for granted when any one term means because we each will use them differently.

For me, a submissive's first duty would be to obey; the slave's is to make life easier and better.


So you believe a slave should determine and make the choices when or when not to obey? If the slave determines that disobedience to an order would make life better or easier for their Master, then they should take it upon themselves to do so even if that is diametrically opposed to the Master's determination? Sounds like the perfect ingredients for a power struggle. How do you determine whose right it is to decide? What if the Master gives an order to the slave, and the slave doesn't know the 'big picture' regarding that order so decides it would be better not to follow that instruction because s/he has determined that to do so would not improve or make easier the life of the Master? Such a philosophy would confuse the hell out of me. Where is the consistancy? Where is the power?

Celeste


Shall I give you a real life example?

Fox knows that while I may love ice cream, I can feel very upset with myself after I eat the regular kind.

So I say "I want ice cream; get me some".

Now by our model his duty is to offer me a reminder of my goals and then makes some suggestions not simply to run out and get me ice cream.

Someone who was just my submissive (my use of the term, not yours or anyone else's) would need to go get me ice cream. I don't want to hear reminders of my overall goal or concerns about my health or make alternative suggestions. Their job is just to obey.

How does Fox know the big picture?

How do you know?

We communicate, he lives with me and has for over 6 years, and he listens and asks questions. He has gone beyond obedience to activity and learned a lot about me so much so that he some times knows what I want or need before I do thereby making my life much easier and a lot better.

I don't want to drop names (I find that lame) but most of the people I know offline who live 24/7 owner-slave lifestyles operate in pretty much this same fashion. The slave is very active, they are not always obedient because they have the owner's greater good and best interest in mind. That owner may want to watch the game and make an order to that effect but if they really should be at an appointment, in my opinion, the slave needs to point that out and say "fuck obedience" for the moment.

Here's the kicker: Owners are not perfect. We have desires that aren't healthy for us, we don't always feel 100%, and we sure as heck aren't deities who know everything.

Maybe some of you just see this all as obedience to a greater degree but for me it really something quite different.

Fox can be very obedient and submissive, he calls it his "vacation" time from being a slave because he can just do what he's told and not worry about the big picture. I love to have those times together but frankly I couldn't do that 24/7, I couldn't monitor everything and give out a string of orders all the time.


_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: No limit slaves - 3/28/2006 7:29:05 PM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I do not want a slave who will disobey me for my own good. I want a slave who will explain to me why she thinks obeying me will not be in my best interest--and will then obey if do not change my mind after listening to her.

Thetammyjo, I'm afraid you are missing just about every point there is to miss here. "The legal better be important" is not a response to what we are saying. The fact that there are people who are prepared to break the law for their master has nothing to do with the question of whether a judge and jury will sympathize with them if they are arrested for it. Conflating those two is about as bad as saying that there cannot be any thieves in the world because larceny is against the law.

But it's not too surprising that this issue marks a major fork in the road, because it's also the exact point where I part company with the Safe-Sane-Consensual crowd. If you don't want to take our path, don't take it. Just please don't tell us that we must be insane or that we cannot exist.

Lam


Where did I say anyone was insane or did not exist?

I believe I said that it was a fantasy idea or something that developed over time between two people.

I still think limits are reality, whether one wants to admit one has them or not. Legal, social, physical, mental, activity, I have never met someone who had no limits. Even Superman had limits.

A deity might be the only one who could truly say it didn't have limits but that's sort of part of the definition of being a deity or god now isn't it?

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: No limit slaves - 3/28/2006 7:34:41 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		This doesn't make sense EITHER.  We're not talking about LIMITATIONS.  I have LIMITATIONS.  I can't fly.  I do not know what preceded the Big Bang.  I cannot cause mountains to disintegrate with a single zap of my x-ray finger.

We're not talking about whether anyone can fart lightning bolts.  We're talking about whether a slave will do everything his or her master commands.  That's all we're talking about it.  Maybe you've never met anyone like that, but they exist.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I still think limits are reality, whether one wants to admit one has them or not. Legal, social, physical, mental, activity, I have never met someone who had no limits. Even Superman had limits.

A deity might be the only one who could truly say it didn't have limits but that's sort of part of the definition of being a deity or god now isn't it?

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 100
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