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Loki45 -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 6:37:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
I don't think he sees it as "all women"; he's mentioned female friends that get him, and his response to LA indicated that he did not include her, for instance. When he posts the sweeping comments, I think it's his way of countering what he sees as sweeping jabs at men. Tit for tat.

I'm not defending him; for one thing, he doesn't need me to do so, also, I don't always agree with his comments, or the way he presents them. Sometimes he makes valid points.


Well put and right on the money. And though you're right about me not needing anyone to defend me, it does help to know *some* people can read and understand what I've written, especially when ones like Aylee can read it so incorrectly.



LadyAngelika -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 6:37:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I could introduce you to a few who are bitches and proud of it ;-)

- LA



Being a Bitch isn't about stepping on other people, or reality TV-style sabotage antics. Its about working hard for what you want, and knowing when to stand up for what you deserve. Its not about demoralizing others; its about self-empowerment. Its not about being arrogant; its about displaying your confidence and intellect as a badge of pride. Its not asserting any inherent superiority or self-entitlement, but recognizing your own self-worth and value.


Well you and I have very different definitions of the word bitch. Because I do all that and I don't consider myself to be a bitch at all, because I don't chew people up and spit them out, leaving them in my trail as I've seen some bitches do.

- LA



Level -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 6:38:20 PM)

Aylee: ah-ha, I understand what you meant now. I don't necessarily agree with the feminist's tactic, however, not in whole. And I don't agree with what a Bitch is, but I suppose that'd be an example of me being patriachal LOL.



sexyred1 -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 6:40:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

I hate much of academia. Doesn't mean they're wrong, they just seem hell bent of speaking mumbo jumbo.

What was she getting at, and how does it apply to Loki?


I was trying to show you a couple of quotes about taking back language.  I commented about Loki using a radical feminist tactic.  I was showing you where I am getting that from. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I could introduce you to a few who are bitches and proud of it ;-)

- LA



Being a Bitch isn't about stepping on other people, or reality TV-style sabotage antics. Its about working hard for what you want, and knowing when to stand up for what you deserve. Its not about demoralizing others; its about self-empowerment. Its not about being arrogant; its about displaying your confidence and intellect as a badge of pride. Its not asserting any inherent superiority or self-entitlement, but recognizing your own self-worth and value.


I missed this definition and I like it. But the problem is, Aylee, that some people will never see it for the reasons above, they have an axe to grind or take things personally or misread intent. Therefore, the confident and intelligent woman becomes a bitch to the viewer. I have often heard statements like, she looks like a bitch, and when you look to where they are pointing, it is always a woman who looks confident, not mean.



Loki45 -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 6:42:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
The bad boy self proclaimed assholes were the ones who treated everyone around them badly, even waiters and waitresses for example, who did alot of fucked up things and always, always, ALWAYS when questioned on why they behaved the way they did, said, "Well, I TOLD you I was an asshole and you stayed with me."


I guess I'm a unique asshole then. Because I treat waitstaff very well. Perhaps because I was one for awhile. Generally, I try and treat strangers nicely -- with the benefit of the doubt. But if they make the slightest rude little misstep....yeah, I can be a dick pretty quick.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
2. Women should stay the hell away from asshole guys.


This couldn't be more true. However, it doesn't matter who many women have "been down that road" or how many moms tell this to their daughters....they never get it UNTIL they experience it. Which is why the assholes always seem to have their pick of women. The naive woman confuses assholeness with confidence and flocks to it like a moth to a flame.



Wolf2Bear -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 6:42:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Aylee: ah-ha, I understand what you meant now. I don't necessarily agree with the feminist's tactic, however, not in whole. And I don't agree with what a Bitch is, but I suppose that'd be an example of me being patriachal LOL.


Try being in my world and then the concept of bitch takes on an entirely new meaning.



Loki45 -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 6:44:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf2Bear
Seems to me that just because a person grew up identifying as a geek does not equate to being an asshole in adulthood.....my perception is that being an asshole is a learned behavioral trait that a person could change if they seriously wanted to. It has been my experience that many people who adopt that type of attitude do so as a facade to hide who they actually are inside. I could be very well wrong on this yet that is how I perceive this.


Careful, you're doing a little of what LT did. I'm not an asshole because I grew up a geek. The two are not inclusive. I don't *care* because I grew up a geek. I'm an asshole for entirely different reasons.



sexyred1 -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 6:44:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
The bad boy self proclaimed assholes were the ones who treated everyone around them badly, even waiters and waitresses for example, who did alot of fucked up things and always, always, ALWAYS when questioned on why they behaved the way they did, said, "Well, I TOLD you I was an asshole and you stayed with me."


I guess I'm a unique asshole then. Because I treat waitstaff very well. Perhaps because I was one for awhile. Generally, I try and treat strangers nicely -- with the benefit of the doubt. But if they make the slightest rude little misstep....yeah, I can be a dick pretty quick.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
2. Women should stay the hell away from asshole guys.


This couldn't be more true. However, it doesn't matter who many women have "been down that road" or how many moms tell this to their daughters....they never get it UNTIL they experience it. Which is why the assholes always seem to have their pick of women. The naive woman confuses assholeness with confidence and flocks to it like a moth to a flame.



You could not be more correct on this point.



Loki45 -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 6:46:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Being a Bitch isn't about stepping on other people, or reality TV-style sabotage antics. Its about working hard for what you want, and knowing when to stand up for what you deserve. Its not about demoralizing others; its about self-empowerment. Its not about being arrogant; its about displaying your confidence and intellect as a badge of pride. Its not asserting any inherent superiority or self-entitlement, but recognizing your own self-worth and value.


Perhaps that's what it means to you, and to those who are trying to 'take back' the word bitch. To the rest of us, however, it means some classess woman who treats people like shit because she thinks she's entitled. Maybe she wore the good clothes in high school or grew up spoiled. Either way, she thinks the world owes her something and she doesn't care about anyone but herself.



Loki45 -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 6:48:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
You could not be more correct on this point.


I know. I saw, see it and will continue to see it on a dialy basis. It was one of the great sources of frustration that I saw. Now...it works in my favor. Or at least it would if I were looking for a relationship. But as others have pointed out, the type of girl that would be drawn to me now, likely doesn't have any of the other qualities that I would look for.



LadyAngelika -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 6:49:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf2Bear

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Aylee: ah-ha, I understand what you meant now. I don't necessarily agree with the feminist's tactic, however, not in whole. And I don't agree with what a Bitch is, but I suppose that'd be an example of me being patriachal LOL.


Try being in my world and then the concept of bitch takes on an entirely new meaning.



Oh my bear!! Very true! ;-)

- LA



Wolf2Bear -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 6:50:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf2Bear
Seems to me that just because a person grew up identifying as a geek does not equate to being an asshole in adulthood.....my perception is that being an asshole is a learned behavioral trait that a person could change if they seriously wanted to. It has been my experience that many people who adopt that type of attitude do so as a facade to hide who they actually are inside. I could be very well wrong on this yet that is how I perceive this.


Careful, you're doing a little of what LT did. I'm not an asshole because I grew up a geek. The two are not inclusive. I don't *care* because I grew up a geek. I'm an asshole for entirely different reasons.



Which is why in my very first sentence I did state "...grew up identifying as a geek does not equate to being an asshole in adulthood." 

That should clear any potential incorrect interpretations.



Aylee -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 6:50:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

I could introduce you to a few who are bitches and proud of it ;-)

- LA



Being a Bitch isn't about stepping on other people, or reality TV-style sabotage antics. Its about working hard for what you want, and knowing when to stand up for what you deserve. Its not about demoralizing others; its about self-empowerment. Its not about being arrogant; its about displaying your confidence and intellect as a badge of pride. Its not asserting any inherent superiority or self-entitlement, but recognizing your own self-worth and value.


Well you and I have very different definitions of the word bitch. Because I do all that and I don't consider myself to be a bitch at all, because I don't chew people up and spit them out, leaving them in my trail as I've seen some bitches do.

- LA



Bitch is one of the powerful epitaphs/epithets used to pull women into line. Other epitaphs/epithets include cunt, slut, whore, and fat. The Bitch is and can be a positive female role in American society if more women ready and willing to face down negative stereotypes and patriarchal role can embrace her. When you get a full understanding of what is being said with the injunction, "Don’t be a bitch," the meaning is: do not be a difficult or unpleasant, spiteful, lewd female, or just do not be female.

Elizabeth Wurtzel sums it up best when she wrote: "She may, in fact, be as nice as can be, but as soon as she says catch me if you can I’m so free this is my life and the rest can fuck off and die – as soon as she lays down the option of my way or the highway, it’s amazing how quickly everyone finds her difficult, crazy, a nightmare: a bitch."


Embracing the term in a positive manner reclaims the term to be used by women for women instead of against women. 



LadyAngelika -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 6:50:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
You could not be more correct on this point.


I know. I saw, see it and will continue to see it on a dialy basis. It was one of the great sources of frustration that I saw. Now...it works in my favor. Or at least it would if I were looking for a relationship. But as others have pointed out, the type of girl that would be drawn to me now, likely doesn't have any of the other qualities that I would look for.



I really only needed to date one asshole for a short while to realise that I could do much better. I guess I'm lucky.

- LA



LadyAngelika -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 6:53:45 PM)

quote:

Embracing the term in a positive manner reclaims the term to be used by women for women instead of against women.


Well then you go ahead and embrace the term bitch.

I will continue to attribute it to women who behave with no integrity and respect for others, who decide that it is ok to slander, accuse, rip them a new one, etc, all in the name of reclaiming something or other.

And I will continue to do my best to be a Lady and making progress through diplomacy and earning people's respect. Deal?

- LA



Loki45 -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 6:56:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
Bitch is one of the powerful epitaphs/epithets used to pull women into line. Other epitaphs/epithets include cunt, slut, whore, and fat. The Bitch is and can be a positive female role in American society if more women ready and willing to face down negative stereotypes and patriarchal role can embrace her. When you get a full understanding of what is being said with the injunction, "Don’t be a bitch," the meaning is: do not be a difficult or unpleasant, spiteful, lewd female, or just do not be female.

Elizabeth Wurtzel sums it up best when she wrote: "She may, in fact, be as nice as can be, but as soon as she says catch me if you can I’m so free this is my life and the rest can fuck off and die – as soon as she lays down the option of my way or the highway, it’s amazing how quickly everyone finds her difficult, crazy, a nightmare: a bitch."


Embracing the term in a positive manner reclaims the term to be used by women for women instead of against women. 


Since when is "fat" a word used only for women? And how does that 'keep them in line?' If someone is fat, they're fat. It's simple fact. It need not be an insult unless they allow it to be. Just ask Kevin Smith.



Level -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 6:56:55 PM)

quote:

red:

Therefore, the confident and intelligent woman becomes a bitch to the viewer


A lot of truth there, sadly.

quote:

Bear:

Try being in my world and then the concept of bitch takes on an entirely new meaning.


True also, my friend.



Loki45 -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 6:59:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika
Well then you go ahead and embrace the term bitch.

I will continue to attribute it to women who behave with no integrity and respect for others, who decide that it is ok to slander, accuse, rip them a new one, etc, all in the name of reclaiming something or other.

And I will continue to do my best to be a Lady and making progress through diplomacy and earning people's respect. Deal?


Well said.

I crack a smile at the women who claim to be trying to 'reclaim' a word like bitch. That's what they tell themselves when they realize they are exactly what you describe. It's roughly akin to a parent telling an ugly kid that real beauty comes from the inside. They know the kid will still be ridiculed at school, but they're trying to make them feel better about themselves.

Same concept with "bitch." To feel a need to reclaim a word like bitch you would have had to fit the description you gave in whole or in part. And to be able to sleep at night, they tell themselves what Aylee is trying to say here.



Aylee -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 7:03:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Loki45

Take note LadyAngelika. This is a great example of those who try to answer for me with a half-assed attempt at an insult. They don't get it and never will.



Wah. Wah. Fucking Wah.

quote:

Quite possible. But we'll never know. The irony is that since I became an asshole, my prospects have increased dramatically. Which is another fact that frustrates the hell out of me. When I was a nice guy -- no one gave me the time of day. As an asshole who clearly does *not* want a relationship.....prospects abound. It's like a memo was sent out -- "Flirt with him now!!!"



That's because you only notice the shallow damaged ones.

quote:

You wouldn't see the payback. But I do, everyday. With every interaction, I see the truth of the situation. I'm as astounded that women talk to me now as I was to learn that women seemed to like assholes more than nice guys. I can't fathom why chicks talk to me now -- but they do. They respond very well, in fact. It blows my mind on a constant basis.


Break out the violins... Perhaps you should change the type of women you are attracted to. But to do that, YOU would have to face your own damage.

quote:

True, I could have already met her and pushed her away. Don't think I haven't considered it. It's actually one of the arguments I use when my friend's wife lectures me about how "the right one is out there." If I were looking for the right one, I suppose I'd be concerned. Since I'm not, I guess I don't care. People always said the right one will be the right one no matter what. Supposedly when that kind of match is made, the 'right one' will see right through all my issues and bullshit and see the real me. If I believed that, that is.


Healthy women NEVER miss whiney "nice guys" or "assholes" - they always kick them to the curb.

quote:

This is a pretty accurate way to put it. This could also lead to the arguments I've had with exes who said in the beginning "oh you're not an asshole," only to later proclaim (during a fight) "you're such an asshole!" The irony is mind-boggling.



Maybe some day you'll get fed up enough to stop, look in a mirror, and see where the REAL problem is.

quote:

Does it hurt to be this wrong?


Nah.  You were already in the lame whiner bin.

quote:

 I'm just curious because you've overlooked my entire, well-thought-out discussion with LadyA and formed your own assumptions and misconceptions about me. Why don't you just read my long-winded posts instead of making such assinine and incorrect statements?



I think you'd get more mileage (and greater benefit) if you say it to your therapist - and I'm not being flippant here.



LadyAngelika -> RE: Talking Women (2/15/2010 7:03:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

red:

Therefore, the confident and intelligent woman becomes a bitch to the viewer


A lot of truth there, sadly.



Too often, women are expected to be passive, I agree. But the appropriate response is not aggressive. It is assertive.

Sadly, sometimes when women are being assertive, it can be misinterpreted as agressive. But there is a clear difference. (source)

Passive Behavior: Is afraid to speak up
Aggressive Behavior: Interrupts and 'talks over' others
Assertive Behavior: Speaks openly

Passive Behavior: Speaks softly
Aggressive Behavior: Speaks loudly
Assertive Behavior: Uses a conversational tone

Passive Behavior: Avoids looking at people
Aggressive Behavior: Glares and stares at others
Assertive Behavior: Makes good eye contact

Passive Behavior: Shows little or no expression
Aggressive Behavior: Intimidates others with expressions
Assertive Behavior: Shows expressions that match the message

Passive Behavior: Slouches and withdraws
Aggressive Behavior: Stands rigidly, crosses arms, invades others' personal space
Assertive Behavior: Relaxes and adopts an open posture and expressions

Passive Behavior: Isolates self from groups
Aggressive Behavior: Controls groups
Assertive Behavior: Participates in groups

Passive Behavior: Agrees with others, despite feelings
Aggressive Behavior: Only considers own feelings, and/or demands of others
Assertive Behavior: Speaks to the point

Passive Behavior: Values self less than others
Aggressive Behavior: Values self more than others
Assertive Behavior: Values self equal to others

Passive Behavior: Hurts self to avoid hurting others
Aggressive Behavior: Hurts others to avoid being hurt
Assertive Behavior: Tries to hurt no one (including self)

Passive Behavior: Does not reach goals and may not know goals
Aggressive Behavior: Reaches goals but hurts others in the process
Assertive Behavior: Usually reaches goals without alienating others

Passive Behavior: You're okay, I'm not
Aggressive Behavior : I'm okay, you're not
Assertive Behavior : I'm okay, you're okay

- LA



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