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RE: Obama Making Plans to Use Executive Power - 2/13/2010 2:10:51 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

http://americangrandjury.org/investigators-declare-obama-never-attended-columbia-university





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RE: Obama Making Plans to Use Executive Power - 2/13/2010 2:14:19 PM   
pahunkboy


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I have no idea what that pic means.

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RE: Obama Making Plans to Use Executive Power - 2/13/2010 2:28:12 PM   
AnimusRex


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Actually even as a confirmed Obama-lover (I have a framed pic on my nightstand, surrounded with hearts and flowers) I am uneasy about the expansion of Executive power.

Not so much recess appointments of Executive orders per se, since they are a natural part of the Constitutional setup.
But more, the creeping militarization of the office, which has been acceplerating with each successive Administration since WWII.

It is acknowledged that when in time of war, the Executive Branch enlarges, and become more powerful. This is necessary since wartime decisions have to be made swiftly and decisively, without the normal debate and compromise that happens in a democracy.

Trouble is, we have been engaged in more and more wars, until we have gotten to a point where we have a permanent, never-ending war that has the entire world as its battlefield.
The War on Terror is defined specifically as a war without borders or battlefield. And so Obama can and has declared that he has the unilateral power to order the assassination of any American citizen, anywhere inthe world, without a trial, or court order.

Stop for a moment and consider this. This is alarming only because it has raised so little alarm. It was mentioned in this Washinton Post article.

I don't think you need to be a paranoid conspiracist to be troubled by the steady increase in Presidential power.

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RE: Obama Making Plans to Use Executive Power - 2/13/2010 2:48:14 PM   
thornhappy


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The whole idea of a War on Terror is a joke anyway - you don't declare war on a tactic.

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RE: Obama Making Plans to Use Executive Power - 2/13/2010 2:54:56 PM   
MrMister


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Many thanks to you AnimusRex for taking the time to address my inquiry. You, as well as a few others (who I also kindly thank) have certainly provided some valuable insight.

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RE: Obama Making Plans to Use Executive Power - 2/13/2010 3:04:34 PM   
DomKen


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The chief executive has the power to run the executive branch as long as doesn't break existing law. EO's are one method the POTUS as chief executive can exercise that power.

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RE: Obama Making Plans to Use Executive Power - 2/13/2010 4:13:11 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrMister

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And, yes, the President does have the power!


I'm not trying to be disrespectful, and I really do appreciate your response, but what I was wondering if ANY president, not just Obama, has the legitimate authority (granted by our constitution) to utilize such powers as an "executive order" to initiate their policies and/or agenda without legislation. You even mentioned that it is a "vague granting" of such. This is why I'm wondering - why is it so readily accepted? I'm simply trying to understand and thought I would ask some of you folks here for your input.


Executive orders, as well as executive privilege as first invoked by Nixon, are merely means by which a President can override the concept of checks and balances as set up in the Constitution.  It has no validity in theory that I know of, but has been used successfully before by other Presidents.  Bush even asserted that he was not required to notify others of his Executive Orders - meaning that he could create laws to follow that nobody else knew of.


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RE: Obama Making Plans to Use Executive Power - 2/13/2010 4:19:26 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

. And so Obama can and has declared that he has the unilateral power to order the assassination of any American citizen, anywhere inthe world, without a trial, or court order.

Stop for a moment and consider this. This is alarming only because it has raised so little alarm. It was mentioned in this Washinton Post article.

I don't think you need to be a paranoid conspiracist to be troubled by the steady increase in Presidential power.


That is a bad road to go down. Actual terrorist who have committed terrorists acts against us are given rights they do not have and given trials but for americans if they have "strong evidence" an american is engaged in terrorism they can be killed.

Bush though the government had the right to listen in on our phone calls and now Obama feels they have the right to track us with them.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10451518-38.html

< Message edited by blacksword404 -- 2/13/2010 4:28:14 PM >


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RE: Obama Making Plans to Use Executive Power - 2/13/2010 7:20:51 PM   
MrMister


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For anyone interested I wanted to share some info I was able to dig up on executive powers.  It appears that Congress has a few tools to work with on executive power.

Thanks again to all who responded. It's always a pleasure to be able to learn something from listening to other folks' perspective and wealth of knowledge.

http://www.rules.house.gov/archives/rules_hear08.htm

In certain instances since the practice began, Congress has taken action in response to executive orders, frequently to sanction by ensuing statute the policy implemented by an executive order or, on occasions involving controversial matters, to seek to withhold funding for the implementation of an executive order. The options available to Congress in the face of an executive order it opposes are constrained by the nature of a system that requires legislation emerging from the Congress to be signed or allowed to become law by the President. The Congress may seek to nullify, repeal, revoke, terminate or de-fund an executive order, but each such action requires the eventual concurrence of the President (most likely the same President that issued the order in the first place).

The Congress may also seek to repeal the underlying statutory authority upon which a particular executive order was based. If the underlying statute is repealed, any ensuing executive order based upon that law is no longer valid. Another tool available to the Congress is to seek to implement a sunset or termination date for statutory authority upon which an executive order is based. In this way, when the sunset date is reached, it is up to Congress to determine whether to renew the provision or let it die. A major tool in the arsenal of the Congress with regard to executive orders lies in the power of the purse. Congress may withhold funds for the implementation of an executive order, thereby directly challenging the President's ability to put in place a particular policy.

On the other hand, in instances where the President issues an executive order that Congress does not oppose, but rather Congress wishes to exert its legislative authority in that area, Congress may seek by statute to sanction the action taken by the President. Similarly, the Congress may wish to sanction portions of an executive order, modify others and repeal others. Congress has the option, through the legislative process, of imposing its own stamp on a policy area staked out by executive order.

In his book, Constitutional Conflicts Between Congress and the President (Fourth Edition, Revised, University Press of Kansas, 1997), Louis Fisher outlines the tensions that exist between the legislative and executive branches when it comes to the practical application of the legislative power:

"The ambiguity of ‘enumerated' and ‘separated' powers is nowhere more evident than in the assignment of the legislative power. Much of the original legislative power vested in Congress is now exercised, as a practical matter, by executive agencies, independent commissions, and the courts. The President's legislative power, invoked on rare occasions in the early decades, is now discharged on a regular basis throughout the year in the form of executive orders, proclamations, and other instruments of executive lawmaking. In self-defense, Congress has developed a complex system that depends on procedural guidelines for agency action, judicial review, committee and subcommittee oversight, and a constantly evolving structure of informal, nonstatutory controls

Remedy also exists in the judicial branch, in instances where the legitimacy of an executive order is challenged. There have been, however, only two occasions – once in 1952 and once in 1996 – when executive orders were struck down by the courts.


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RE: Obama Making Plans to Use Executive Power - 2/13/2010 11:43:10 PM   
Termyn8or


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Mr, I sped through the thread and did not find the answer, so I will provide it.

This is a bit of a trick to explain, and how it happened.

In 1933 the US declared bankrupcy. At that point it was technically liquidated, but not apparently. Like when the city of Cleveland went into default, the bank was not toting desks out of the police stations and such. However our status changed.

Law has it that that this condition is a state of emergency, and all executive orders are authorized under the emergency war powers act. This means that we a very close to martial law. But they don't want to make it apparent. We have lived all of our lives under what is known as Admiralty Maritime Jurisdiction. This status makes the Constitution into a big gray area and thwarts legal attacks in the courts, and gives them the power to actually license rights. Only the President can end AMJ, but he would have to be an idiot to do so.

Under this form of law, an EO is the law of the land because we are considered to be in a state of emergency as if we were at war. As commander in chief he therefore has the Consititutional authority to issue any order he damn well pleases regardless what what the legislature or the Constitution says.

Under AMJ the President could order that anyone caught on St. Patrick's Day not wearing green shall be executed on the spot. He won't, it would be ridiculous to do so, and reveal this power. But as commander in chief he actually does have the power, Constitutionally, to do so. Even the supreme court can do nothing about it, and would refuse to hear any case involving these matters.

Yes, under this system of law, the President has near dictatorial powers, and it is fully authorized by the Constitution. There is not a damn thing we can do about it either.

T

Added, missed that last part. They struck it down twice ? Must have been one hell of an EO. I'll have to look that up and see if I can find the original contention, because as far as I knew an EO was pretty much sacrosanct.

T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 2/13/2010 11:47:23 PM >

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RE: Obama Making Plans to Use Executive Power - 2/14/2010 12:21:57 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
In 1933 the US declared bankrupcy.

This is patent bullshit.

As is the claim about admiralty jurisdiction. Of all the silly bullshit conspiracy loons put up that is a contender for silliest. Will you dare post the reasoning behind the claim or shall I?





Oh what the hell, there's no way you will tell the truth on the matter so I will. The basis for the claim is that some courts display US flags with a gold fringe. Now there isn't actually any tradition of admiralty courts displaying fringed flags its just purely made up. In actuality maritime tradition is against the use of fringe on any flag but that doesn't stop these fools.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_United_States#Decoration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiralty_court#Maritime_jurisdiction_in_the_United_States

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RE: Obama Making Plans to Use Executive Power - 2/14/2010 12:27:43 AM   
Termyn8or


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Fine.

Is this a court of equity or a court of law ?

T

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RE: Obama Making Plans to Use Executive Power - 2/14/2010 12:49:38 AM   
DomKen


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Is what a court of equity or law?

Do you even know what the terms really mean?

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RE: Obama Making Plans to Use Executive Power - 2/14/2010 1:35:06 AM   
Termyn8or


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OK, I insulted you with an invitation, now you insult me. We're even.

I'll not contend this. You are not a lawyer are you ? And even if so, how can you prove your competence to me, by opening confidential files ? That would go over really well huh.

I have no interest in what the other sheeple say on wiki, but what happened up in Michigan when they convicted Kevorkian ? I suppose you have your slant on that as well. Fine. Equity and law have an ill defined line these days, but the difference still exists. Some of us who have studied know how to use this to our advantage, and to challenge jurisdiction. Others simply think that when they pass a sign that says "Corporate Limit" you are under their jurisdiction. I have personal proof to the contrary.

And for the record I have as of Thursday been stopped driving "illegally" for the third time and have not been jailed. They know that hauling me in will result in a big headache. Why ? I have the ticket in my pocket and can scan it and send you the picture. The date is intact, the charges are clear, I was driving under suspension. Well if you like, I'll post the ticket sans certain personal info, but showing the date and everything.

Either I am right or we are headed for a state of near anarchy, when they simply can't afford to enforce this gobbletygook they pass off as law.

That pic should yield you the case number and you can then see that I am still here, and will be. (want it ?) I am not worried about them at all.

And don't forget that I am at home and comfy, since a half an hour after the traffic stop. This is a first degree midemeanor in this state and punishable by six months in jail AND a thousand dollar fine. The ticket might fly out my window on Tuesday on the way to work on the highway (I am off Mondays).

You can pay up.

T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 2/14/2010 1:39:29 AM >

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RE: Obama Making Plans to Use Executive Power - 2/14/2010 5:41:50 AM   
DomImus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you
Gee, where is your bitch when GWB did it, a simple look at a history book will show this has been used since we became a country


He chastised both Clinton and Bush in his OP:

"I didn't think the president has any such legitimate power or "authority," but I suppose that's never stopped them before seeing how "Slick Willy" and "George the Dumber" did in fact utilize executive orders during their respective administrations."

yet you still have throw in your little partisan jab.

Learn to read.




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RE: Obama Making Plans to Use Executive Power - 2/14/2010 6:30:03 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

That is a bad road to go down. Actual terrorist who have committed terrorists acts against us are given rights they do not have and given trials but for americans if they have "strong evidence" an american is engaged in terrorism they can be killed.



There is no legal definition of a "terrorist".  So there is no way that a terrorist who has committed "acts of terror" (also undefined) can have any legal rights assigned because they have no legal status.

If the alleged terrorist is a Saudi citizen on American soil, then he is tried as a foreign citizen under US law.  And that includes trials.

If he commits any acts of war against US troops, then he is tried under military law.

I don't understand your statement that an American can be killed without trial if there is "strong evidence" that he has engaged in terrorist activities.  Is this overseas, by foreign authorites under foreign law, in wartime conditions by US law, on US soil, what?


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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: Obama Making Plans to Use Executive Power - 2/14/2010 12:23:06 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

OK, I insulted you with an invitation, now you insult me. We're even.

I'll not contend this. You are not a lawyer are you ? And even if so, how can you prove your competence to me, by opening confidential files ? That would go over really well huh.

I have no interest in what the other sheeple say on wiki, but what happened up in Michigan when they convicted Kevorkian ? I suppose you have your slant on that as well. Fine. Equity and law have an ill defined line these days, but the difference still exists. Some of us who have studied know how to use this to our advantage, and to challenge jurisdiction. Others simply think that when they pass a sign that says "Corporate Limit" you are under their jurisdiction. I have personal proof to the contrary.

And for the record I have as of Thursday been stopped driving "illegally" for the third time and have not been jailed. They know that hauling me in will result in a big headache. Why ? I have the ticket in my pocket and can scan it and send you the picture. The date is intact, the charges are clear, I was driving under suspension. Well if you like, I'll post the ticket sans certain personal info, but showing the date and everything.

Either I am right or we are headed for a state of near anarchy, when they simply can't afford to enforce this gobbletygook they pass off as law.

That pic should yield you the case number and you can then see that I am still here, and will be. (want it ?) I am not worried about them at all.

And don't forget that I am at home and comfy, since a half an hour after the traffic stop. This is a first degree midemeanor in this state and punishable by six months in jail AND a thousand dollar fine. The ticket might fly out my window on Tuesday on the way to work on the highway (I am off Mondays).

You can pay up.

T

Are you stupid or something? You were driving on a suspended license and got caught and got a citation. That is what is supposed to happen. Your suspension will be extended and you will pay the fine when you go to court. If you fail to appear you will still have your suspension extended and the judge will enter a judgement against you for the maximum fine. You won't get your license back until you have served the full suspension and paid all your fines. Eventually you will exceed the number of drivings while suspended that only call for a fine or your outstanding fines will reach the threshold that calls for arrest and you won't drive away but will be arrested and your vehicle will be impounded.

What this has to do with the US filing bankruptcy or with admiralty courts and fringes on flags I have no idea.

BTW If you keep posting outight made up bullshit I'll keep calling you on it.

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RE: Obama Making Plans to Use Executive Power - 2/14/2010 5:16:29 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven


There is no legal definition of a "terrorist".  So there is no way that a terrorist who has committed "acts of terror" (also undefined) can have any legal rights assigned because they have no legal status.

If the alleged terrorist is a Saudi citizen on American soil, then he is tried as a foreign citizen under US law.  And that includes trials.

If he commits any acts of war against US troops, then he is tried under military law.

I don't understand your statement that an American can be killed without trial if there is "strong evidence" that he has engaged in terrorist activities.  Is this overseas, by foreign authorites under foreign law, in wartime conditions by US law, on US soil, what?



There was a Washington Post article about it. Here is a link to the story. It's another site though.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/01/27/yemen/index.html


"Just think about this for a minute.  Barack Obama, like George Bush before him, has claimed the authority to order American citizens murdered based solely on the unverified, uncharged, unchecked claim that they are associated with Terrorism and pose "a continuing and imminent threat to U.S. persons and interests."  They're entitled to no charges, no trial, no ability to contest the accusations.  Amazingly, the Bush administration's policy of merely imprisoning foreign nationals (along with a couple of American citizens) without charges -- based solely on the President's claim that they were Terrorists -- produced intense controversy for years.  That, one will recall, was a grave assault on the Constitution.  Shouldn't Obama's policy of ordering American citizens assassinated without any due process or checks of any kind -- not imprisoned, but killed -- produce at least as much controversy?"

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RE: Obama Making Plans to Use Executive Power - 2/14/2010 5:26:00 PM   
DarkSteven


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Ah.  Thanks for the link.  I was simply citing recorded law, and as the article states, the powers which Bush and Obama claim are OUTSIDE those laws.

Note that this is a power which Obama is claiming - there is no legal justification for it as yet.


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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: Obama Making Plans to Use Executive Power - 2/14/2010 9:08:15 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Ah.  Thanks for the link.  I was simply citing recorded law, and as the article states, the powers which Bush and Obama claim are OUTSIDE those laws.

Note that this is a power which Obama is claiming - there is no legal justification for it as yet.



I sure as hell hope there never is a day when the president can just have Americans executed without trials, legally.

_____________________________

Don't fight him. Embrace your inner asshole.

Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

Genuine catnip/kryptonite.
Ego sum erus.

The capacity to learn is a gift, the ability to learn a skill, the willingness to learn a choice. Dune HH

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