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RE: What should a slave consider her worth to be? - 3/29/2006 1:20:56 PM

Jasmyn

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From: New Zealand
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Simply to just consider themselves 'worthy'...

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RE: What should a slave consider her worth to be? - 3/30/2006 2:52:58 AM

HedonisticFemSub

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I do not give power away beyond closed doors.

I am a successful individual that thinks a man who wants to micro-manage me is a man not worth having.

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RE: What should a slave consider her worth to be? - 3/30/2006 3:44:42 AM

Reilithion

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Joined: 3/27/2006
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Wow. There's a lot of very strong opinions being thrown around here. I think, though, that some of us are getting bogged down over semantics.

For instance, it may first appear that LuckyAlbatross and HedonisticFemSub are at odds, but closer examination and an understanding that words are only an approximation of meaning will show that they are arguing over a non-existent issue.

I believe that HedonisticFemSub is reacting very strongly out of a (quite rational, really) fear that repeatedly reinforcing the idea that someone is worthless will generally cause that person to regard themselves as being worthless. Beyond the fear lies the truth: It happens, and people become mentally ill because of this all the time. Particularly young children.

However, LuckyAlbatross has been trying to point out that, for instance, being used and treated like dirt doesn't mean the same thing to zer as it does to HedonisticFemSub. It isn't undermining her self-worth, it is, in fact, reinforcing it. Though it may not sound quite right to LuckyAlbatross, I believe a way of expressing it to HedonisticFemSub would be to say that LuckyAlbatross, and many like zer, are actually quite proud of being sluts, and dirt, and "worthless". Thus, treating them as such is actually a reinforcement of their self-definition. So, it sounds to me like you two are really just arguing the same point using different vocabulary, and the real issue is communication on this forum.

As for my view on the subject, I especially like how namasteguardian has pointed out that self-worth and worth-as-<fill-in-the-blank>-to-someone-else are different concepts. I agree that, in a perfect setting, one's self-worth should be entirely self-determined. However, note my previous comment about repetitive reinforcement sort of overriding that. It's sad, but it happens, and it's a human characteristic -- we're all vulnerable.

The solution may be in LuckyAlbatross' ability to value in zerself whatever others notice (whether they value it or not) in zer. Why not? It may not be a simple thing to reproduce in one's self, but by golly, it certainly sounds worth pursuing!

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RE: What should a slave consider her worth to be? - 3/30/2006 5:52:42 AM

namasteguardian

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Joined: 6/29/2005
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Reilithion, you have hit it right on the head. I never said subs and slaves who enjoy being treated like sluts, objectified, humiliated, degraded have low self-worth, per se. It depends on the individual. I don't know LuckyAlbatross personally, but just from reading some of her posts, and her profile, I would be willing to bet you are right that she has a high self-worth; a person who enjoys all the degradation because those are her kinks. Nothing wrong with that.

It is the one's who have no self-worth. Who believe they deserve to be degraded, those are the ones I believe are following the wrong path. These are the ones who often allow themselves to be seriously abused, and are involved in some of the horror stories we have all heard about. If my comments have helped even one person to start questioning how they should feel about themselves; that their self-worth is NOT tied to their worth as a Master or as a slave, then these posts have served their purpose.

Namaste, Sir Dominic
"Life was not meant to be easy, but it is meant to be fun!"

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RE: What should a slave consider her worth to be? - 3/30/2006 6:00:53 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: namasteguardian

Reilithion, you have hit it right on the head. I never said subs and slaves who enjoy being treated like sluts, objectified, humiliated, degraded have low self-worth, per se. It depends on the individual. I don't know LuckyAlbatross personally, but just from reading some of her posts, and her profile, I would be willing to bet you are right that she has a high self-worth; a person who enjoys all the degradation because those are her kinks. Nothing wrong with that.

It is the one's who have no self-worth. Who believe they deserve to be degraded, those are the ones I believe are following the wrong path. These are the ones who often allow themselves to be seriously abused, and are involved in some of the horror stories we have all heard about. If my comments have helped even one person to start questioning how they should feel about themselves; that their self-worth is NOT tied to their worth as a Master or as a slave, then these posts have served their purpose.

Namaste, Sir Dominic
"Life was not meant to be easy, but it is meant to be fun!"

You guys are making my day :)

And to reply to Hedonist, giving ultimate authority over to everything in your life is hardly the same as micro managing. In a lot of M/s relationships, the slave is responsible for a LOT of things within the relationship and is expected to get them done with hardly any reinforcement at all. I understand if Ds for you remains within certain confines of time and space, but that has hardly anything to do with understand one's self worth and choosing where that is directed.

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RE: What should a slave consider her worth to be? - 3/30/2006 11:43:24 AM

BitaTruble

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Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
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I think there are two issues here. The value of my service is determined by Himself. If he deems it of no value, then it isn't. The worth of 'me' as a person is determined by 'me' and I find me priceless. :)

Celeste

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RE: What should a slave consider her worth to be? - 3/30/2006 2:29:01 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: namasteguardian

I've read this thread three times now, and I'm still not sure exactly what we are talking about. It does seem to me that we are confusing terms. A slave's worth to their Master is a completely different thing from their self-worth. Or, at least it should be. Healthy self-worth comes from within; that's why it is called self-worth! No-one, Master or slave, Dom(me) or sub should expect someone else to determine their own worth. If you are looking for someone else to determine your worth for you, that is not a healthy place to be. For me, good subs know their worth, and know that that worth is high. It is an indication of their confidence in themselves, and who they are. Not everyone is in that place, obviously, and I see it as My duty as Dom to help My sub grow into her own self-worth. I don't do this because I am so noble, it's actually completely selfish; I find a sub whose self-worth is strong makes for a better sub!

Again, this is completely different from a sub or slave's worth to their Master (and vice versa). This aspect is an exterior function of the relationship. subs/slaves who please their Masters are going to be considered worthier (i.e. a "better" sub) than those who do not. Those Masters who enjoy their subs/slaves in a demanding and loving environment are going to be seen as more worthy, making for more satisfying relationships all the way around.

It has been my experience that many in our lifestyle mix these two aspects of worth up, or intermix them into one. I think there needs to be a lot more understanding that they are not the same thing. I know a lot of you will resist what I am saying. It is a hell of a lot more work to make your own self worth than it is to let someone else do it for you!

Namaste, Sir Dominic

"Life wasn't made to be easy, but it was meant to be fun!"

Enjoyed what you said here... I do agree... that many tie their Self-Worth to the perception of their Master's worth of them. This in of itself to me is not a healthy situation... and very much can lead to a Co-Dependency situation.

Personally from the Master's point of view a slave's worth to me is directly tied to their "Usefulness" to me. However, a slave's "usefulness' to the Master doesn't come from the Master... but from the slave's own Self-Worth. Therefore, a slave with a high sense of Self-worth that consents to have their Master's Authority over them is indeed highly useful to the Master and holds a great amount of value to the Master.

Self-worth comes first.. Usefulness comes from that. I too am very focus on enhancing the Self-worth of my girls... for very selfish reasons! Self-worth that is dependent on themselves and not on anyone else.

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RE: What should a slave consider her worth to be? - 3/31/2006 5:09:37 AM

namasteguardian

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LuckyAlba, somehow the term "make my day" acquires a deliciously whole new meaning coming from your lips.

"Life was not meant to be easy, but it is meant to be fun!"

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RE: What should a slave consider her worth to be? - 3/31/2006 5:58:06 AM

justpettals

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i have found this to be a very interesting forum to read. In my first marriage i was basically mentally abused most of the time. i was always talked down to and treated liked like i was stupid and didnt have anything to contribute to the marriage other than working, cleaning house and taking care of the kids. i have a very strong self worth of myself with my Dom/Husband. Something i had never had before in my previous vanilla marriage. i have found this to be very good as He has been in the hospital recently and i had to be able to handle some major issues and his family on my own. Had i not been self assured of myself, i wouldn't have been able to handle these things without his help.

A slave or sub should have a good selfworth of herself first, otherwise how could she ever think of serving her Master/Dom to the best of her ability.

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RE: What should a slave consider her worth to be? - 4/3/2006 10:55:43 PM

MLskajira

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PookBaccus,
this slave "gave" her freedom to her Master. if she had not wanted Him to have it, He wouild not have gotten it.

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