RE: President Obama has his aides drafting a Health Care Reform Bill merger that will resolve the is (Full Version)

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ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: President Obama has his aides drafting a Health Care Reform Bill merger that will resolve the is (2/20/2010 12:42:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Panda,

The way to do this well would have been to start from scratch with a single payer program. That just was never going to happen.

All we can do is move the ball down the field. Even flawed, better than continuing to ignore the problem.

And it's easier to adjust than to create. If we don't get this, we'll have nothing. Again. For decades more.

Logrolling is how things are done legislatively. It's annoying, but it's reality.

I know you disagree. But here we are.


Actually, Tim, I don't disagree. We are where we are, and this is the reality of the present circumstance. The dems have no choice but to ram it through by any means possible, and I support almost any imaginable strategy by which they might try to accomplish that. Whatever the consequences. They're taking losses this November anyway; might as well go down fighting for what you were elected to do.

The problem I have is twofold. First of all, I don't believe it will  work. The republicans have all the momentum now, and they're going to fight like a pack of rabid wolves. From what I've seen of the Obama team and the democratic congressional leadership over the last year, I don't believe they have the brains to outmaneuver the republicans on this or the balls to brazen it through in the face of the opposition the republicans will mount.

The second problem I have with it is that it never needed to come to this. This is the end result of a year of appallingly incompetent leadership, particularly on the part of Obama, but really by the entire democratic party leadership in Washington. They made one mistake after another, and every blunder they made allowed them to be backed a little bit further into the corner where we now find ourselves - with this absolute catastrophe of a "bill" as not just our best option, but our  only option to move this country in the general direction of a civilized society. It never needed to be like this, and many of us will live the rest of our lives with the disastrous results of this complete and utter failure of leadership.



rulemylife -> RE: President Obama has his aides drafting a Health Care Reform Bill merger that will resolve the issues (2/20/2010 1:24:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

This bill is to big and way to costly. If the dems couldn't ram it through with their super majority, it won't go through now.


You mean the bill that has not yet been presented in a final version is too big and too costly?

Your psychic abilities must be a heavy burden for you to bear.





LiveFreeAndSpank -> RE: President Obama has his aides drafting a Health Care Reform Bill merger that will resolve the issues (2/20/2010 1:32:28 PM)


All a dog & pony show- Barry still thinks if he EXPLAINS it and you disagree, then he'll just EXPLAIN it again.
This charade will not work.



mnottertail -> RE: President Obama has his aides drafting a Health Care Reform Bill merger that will resolve the issues (2/20/2010 1:42:57 PM)

you don't get out much do you, chum?



Musicmystery -> RE: President Obama has his aides drafting a Health Care Reform Bill merger that will resolve the is (2/20/2010 3:00:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Panda,

The way to do this well would have been to start from scratch with a single payer program. That just was never going to happen.

All we can do is move the ball down the field. Even flawed, better than continuing to ignore the problem.

And it's easier to adjust than to create. If we don't get this, we'll have nothing. Again. For decades more.

Logrolling is how things are done legislatively. It's annoying, but it's reality.

I know you disagree. But here we are.

Actually, Tim, I don't disagree. We are where we are, and this is the reality of the present circumstance. The dems have no choice but to ram it through by any means possible, and I support almost any imaginable strategy by which they might try to accomplish that. Whatever the consequences. They're taking losses this November anyway; might as well go down fighting for what you were elected to do.

The problem I have is twofold. First of all, I don't believe it will  work. The republicans have all the momentum now, and they're going to fight like a pack of rabid wolves. From what I've seen of the Obama team and the democratic congressional leadership over the last year, I don't believe they have the brains to outmaneuver the republicans on this or the balls to brazen it through in the face of the opposition the republicans will mount.

The second problem I have with it is that it never needed to come to this. This is the end result of a year of appallingly incompetent leadership, particularly on the part of Obama, but really by the entire democratic party leadership in Washington. They made one mistake after another, and every blunder they made allowed them to be backed a little bit further into the corner where we now find ourselves - with this absolute catastrophe of a "bill" as not just our best option, but our  only option to move this country in the general direction of a civilized society. It never needed to be like this, and many of us will live the rest of our lives with the disastrous results of this complete and utter failure of leadership.


I'm also skeptical it will work. Perhaps they've learned something. I'm at least glad to see signs of it.

Your second problem, in terms of getting this done, isn't relevant. A sunk cost. We are where we are. If they can now salvage it, will be not "this complete and utter failure of leadership," but a partial failure of leadership.

Perhaps ego and idealism have been kicked around enough that practical, realistic approaches will prevail.



truckinslave -> RE: President Obama has his aides drafting a Health Care Reform Bill merger that will resolve the issues (2/21/2010 9:45:43 PM)

If the Dims pass this misusing reconciliation, without Republican support, there will literally be people in the streets with pitchforks, leading to (almost all) Republican primaries and races featuring at least one candidate repeatedly taking an oath to make repeal/de-funding of StealthCare their number one prioroity. Leading to Republican majorities in the House and maybe even the Senate, leading to the death of this awful, and awfully unpopular, bill.
Which I don't think will pass the House, anyway, unless "Obama's aides" have sense enough to water it down to nothing. Which he/they don't.



DarkSteven -> RE: President Obama has his aides drafting a Health Care Reform Bill merger that will resolve the issues (2/21/2010 9:50:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

If the Dims pass this misusing reconciliation, without Republican support, there will literally be people in the streets with pitchforks, leading to (almost all) Republican primaries and races featuring at least one candidate repeatedly taking an oath to make repeal/de-funding of StealthCare their number one prioroity. Leading to Republican majorities in the House and maybe even the Senate, leading to the death of this awful, and awfully unpopular, bill.
Which I don't think will pass the House, anyway, unless "Obama's aides" have sense enough to water it down to nothing. Which he/they don't.


Huh?  You've create a whole fantasy based on the idea that the Republicans not stopping the bill.  Why?



Brain -> RE: President Obama has his aides drafting a Health Care Reform Bill merger that will resolve the issues (2/21/2010 10:39:54 PM)

I don't give a shit if they try to burn down the Whitehouse.  People are going bankrupt and dying and they need MF'N healthcare.

If the Democrats find the balls to pass a good healthcare bill with a public option, which the majority of Americans want, they will be rewarded with gains in the House and Senate; that's what you're really afraid of.

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

If the Dims pass this misusing reconciliation, without Republican support, there will literally be people in the streets with pitchforks, leading to (almost all) Republican primaries and races featuring at least one candidate repeatedly taking an oath to make repeal/de-funding of StealthCare their number one prioroity. Leading to Republican majorities in the House and maybe even the Senate, leading to the death of this awful, and awfully unpopular, bill.
Which I don't think will pass the House, anyway, unless "Obama's aides" have sense enough to water it down to nothing. Which he/they don't.



truckinslave -> RE: President Obama has his aides drafting a Health Care Reform Bill merger that will resolve the issues (2/22/2010 6:51:14 AM)

I've heard several people discuss nationalizing the midterms around StealthCare. Boehner (hell, I think it was Boehner) gently dismissed the idea as premature, saying that he wanted to remain focused on defeating the bill. It's hard for me to see why the vast majority of Rs would fail to run on repeal/de-funding. If it (defeating Obamacare) worked in Taxachusetts..... it'll work most anywhere.... Only issue more popular there than defeating this health care bill was... waterboarding.

November is going to be fun.



truckinslave -> RE: President Obama has his aides drafting a Health Care Reform Bill merger that will resolve the issues (2/22/2010 6:56:42 AM)

quote:

If the Democrats find the balls to pass a good healthcare bill with a public option, which the majority of Americans want, they will be rewarded with gains in the House and Senate; that's what you're really afraid of.


There may be some poll out there that shows that; I certainly know of none that show support for the half-assed bills that have been half-passed. That part about Dim gains resulting from passing this? The members and Senators have a clearer vision of reality (and far better polling). Which is why I think it'll never pass the House. Senate reconciliation is a merely a distraction at this point. Do you remember the last House vote (before Brown)?



Thadius -> RE: President Obama has his aides drafting a Health Care Reform Bill merger that will resolve the issues (2/22/2010 7:27:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Republicans, insurance companies and drug companies are all being excluded from drafting this bill. Nothing has changed..


In my dreams. The GOP is actually bragging about being the "Party of NO".

Although I find it oddly telling that you are so offended that private interests are not allowed to write our laws.

So I can take this statement to suggest that you are in favor of stripping the union protections out of the bill? You know the ones that were negotiated behind closed doors by SEIU?

I always see folks around here talking about the will of the people and what the people want. So what about the majority of Americans that want this issue to wait until after the midterm elections, or the majority that want the current bill scrapped and for the process to start over with everything out in the open? I know "Fuck them" they are just misinformed.

The audacity.



Thadius -> RE: President Obama has his aides drafting a Health Care Reform Bill merger that will resolve the is (2/22/2010 7:34:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

This bill is to big and way to costly. If the dems couldn't ram it through with their super majority, it won't go through now.


I see you're letting yourself proceed unemcumbered by facts.

The Congressional Budget Office disagrees with you. But then, they ran numbers. Makes a difference.

And obviously the point of reconciliation is so that the bill doesn't need a super majority, just a majority--which it already has.

What's too big and way to costly is to continue to let spiraling health care costs weigh down the economy.

I thought you on the right liked business? Fixing health care is going to save them a bundle. They can't continue as they are with ever increasing costs. And insuring everyone (OK, close to everyone) provides the base for covering the conditions insurance won't touch now, spreading the cost and the risk--which is what insurance does. This also makes for a wellness nation instead of a crisis treatment approach, contributing to worker security and productivity.

There's a reason every other nation has already done this.




When is the last time the CBO came even close (within a Billion) to being accurate about the costs of a program (much less a program of this magnitude)?



tazzygirl -> RE: President Obama has his aides drafting a Health Care Reform Bill merger that will resolve the issues (2/22/2010 7:38:51 AM)

The "majority" want the original bill scrapped? I, for one, fear that scrapping the entire bill will produce absolutely nothing... even less than we have now... producing only a "moral" victory for the Republicans. Any steps back would be disasterous. I am not happy with the two current proposals... but something is definintely better than nothing.



truckinslave -> RE: President Obama has his aides drafting a Health Care Reform Bill merger that will resolve the issues (2/22/2010 7:41:49 AM)

quote:

but something is definintely better than nothing.


Not even you can believe this. Anythingcan be made worse (especially by the government).



RacerJim -> RE: President Obama has his aides drafting a Health Care Reform Bill merger that will resolve the issues (2/22/2010 7:43:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Thank you for calling attention to the bullshit Obama is trying to peddle. Bipartisan health care summit my ass. Its still my way or the highway, and the conservatives are right...the summit is just a show so he can claim either no cooperation or bipartisanship when he shoves it down our throats.

And no, fat head moron, "we" don't want Obamas version of health care reform and the polls show it.



Thank you for the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

The more often and firmer conservatives have said "NO" the faster and larger the majority of "We the people..." oppposed to "Obamacare" has become.



cuckoldmepls -> RE: President Obama has his aides drafting a Health Care Reform Bill merger that will resolve the issues (2/22/2010 7:48:35 AM)

I agree the vast majority do want health care reformed, but not taken over by socialists. Their plan is obviously the first step in a complete takeover down the road. The reason being, is that in the beginning the government will make it more affordable than private insurers can. So more people will flock to their plan. Eventually the private ensurers will be ran out of business, and then the government will be able to charge you whatever they want. This is how socialists work. They get their foot in the door anyway they can, and little by little they expand their socialists programs, and maintain existing economic policies that impoverish America such as free trade and Illegal Immigration.

In the long run it won't work. Their agenda has almost collapsed the world economy once already. Common sense would tell you that if they continue down this same path, next time it will be even worse. You can only print up money for so long, and create so many government jobs, before the system collapses on itself.

http://babelishere.webs.com/health.html




mnottertail -> RE: President Obama has his aides drafting a Health Care Reform Bill merger that will resolve the issues (2/22/2010 7:49:57 AM)

socialists are then just good capitalists in disguse, using that logic...well what could be more american?



cuckoldmepls -> RE: President Obama has his aides drafting a Health Care Reform Bill merger that will resolve the issues (2/22/2010 7:51:14 AM)

If their only purpose were to cover low income Americans, then all they would have to do is extend medicaid. Obviously, they have an agenda to takeover the healthcare industry.



Thadius -> RE: President Obama has his aides drafting a Health Care Reform Bill merger that will resolve the issues (2/22/2010 7:54:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The "majority" want the original bill scrapped? I, for one, fear that scrapping the entire bill will produce absolutely nothing... even less than we have now... producing only a "moral" victory for the Republicans. Any steps back would be disasterous. I am not happy with the two current proposals... but something is definintely better than nothing.


Something is not always better than nothing. That doesn't mean that I don't want this issue handled, because I do. Pushing something through just for the sake of getting something passed in time for the midterms, just doesn't seem like the proper rationale for changing 18% of the economy.

The President's proposal or what they are going to share is up on the White House website, from what I have been able to read this morning the proposal is basicly the Senate bill with the Nebraska bribe changed.

There are plenty of points both sides can agree on,so starting from scratch and penning those pointswould allow for some good to come of this process. I personally don't like the mentality of "I know it's a bad bill, but we can fix it in the future." That is what has gotten us into a great many of the current problems, there is never enough consensus to get the thing fixed, or "fixes" are snuck in the back door of other bills.

One final, comment (question) on the current bill. If these reforms are so important, and will save lives, why don't the benefits kick in right away? Why have all of the fees, taxes, and revenue generating parts of the bill start immediately, yet the benefits wait 3 or more years?

It just seems like smoke and mirrors to me.


**Edited to clarify a point I was trying to make see BOLD.



RacerJim -> RE: President Obama has his aides drafting a Health Care Reform Bill merger that will resolve the issues (2/22/2010 8:10:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Repeatedly he asked for bipartisian efforts on health care reform. Repeatedly all we heard from republicans is how it will never work. (Hawaii makes a mockery of that statement) Republicans now want him to scrap all that work and start over. He isnt willing to do that, and i dont blame him. We have been trying to get some form of health care reform passed for over a decade. Its time it happened.

He is taking what each side of Congress stated they wanted, merging them together, then proposing them as one. Im not happy with everything in there. I dont believe Obama is either. But its a place to start.


You lie!



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