RE: OPPS...There Go the Rising Sea Levels! (Full Version)

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AnimusRex -> RE: OPPS...There Go the Rising Sea Levels! (2/26/2010 9:52:47 AM)

Exactly-

We don't know for certain exactly what effect the trillions of tons of crap that is being pumped into the atmosphere. A lot of strong evidence points to warming, but it can't be proven.

But we never have proof of anything; we never had proof that pouring raw sewage into the town drinking water is bad- we only had studies and evidence, not hard proof.

What we have, is decisions about public policy. Should we make attempts to reduce the amount of fossil fuels we burn? Reduce the amount of CFC's, sulphurous compounds, and so forth?

This is why I keep saying this is a proxy war; The real issue is public policy, what regulations our governments enact.

Even if you could somehow debunk all the studies showing a rise in Earth's temperature, what would change?
What policy of the EPA or the UN would be different?

Would we conclude that pumping these trillions of tons of crap into the air is a good thing? That is has absolutely no ill effects?



willbeurdaddy -> RE: OPPS...There Go the Rising Sea Levels! (2/26/2010 10:24:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

though I will note Mnot, that you are also a coward, who won't tell me which profiles you think I am "sockpuppeting".


me, of course.



mnottertail -> RE: OPPS...There Go the Rising Sea Levels! (2/26/2010 10:36:51 AM)

Bullshit.



luckydawg -> RE: OPPS...There Go the Rising Sea Levels! (2/26/2010 12:58:46 PM)

Cmon mnot, lay out the accusation.

don't be a cowardly troll. Stand by your accusation.

Which profiles do you think I am sockpuppeting (or being sockpuppeted by)?

You make the accusation over and over, flesh it out.

Don't be a coward.



mnottertail -> RE: OPPS...There Go the Rising Sea Levels! (2/26/2010 1:03:16 PM)

I will provide the necessary citations after you have finished going thru the posts and making the citations I have solicited from you.

Thanks, cuz one good act begets another.



luckydawg -> RE: OPPS...There Go the Rising Sea Levels! (2/26/2010 1:05:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

Exactly-

We don't know for certain exactly what effect the trillions of tons of crap that is being pumped into the atmosphere. A lot of strong evidence points to warming, but it can't be proven.

But we never have proof of anything; we never had proof that pouring raw sewage into the town drinking water is bad- we only had studies and evidence, not hard proof.

What we have, is decisions about public policy. Should we make attempts to reduce the amount of fossil fuels we burn? Reduce the amount of CFC's, sulphurous compounds, and so forth?

This is why I keep saying this is a proxy war; The real issue is public policy, what regulations our governments enact.

Even if you could somehow debunk all the studies showing a rise in Earth's temperature, what would change?
What policy of the EPA or the UN would be different?

Would we conclude that pumping these trillions of tons of crap into the air is a good thing? That is has absolutely no ill effects?


So the question is "is industrialisation a good or bad thing". Lots of good things happened because of the crap we pumped into the air. Longer lives, an explosion in travell, communications, cleaner food and water, exponential increases in knowledge, ect, ect. right? Some disagree, and feel that the modern era was bad. UNibomber ludite types. Most folks lie somewhere in the middle.

You put crap in the air for fun right Animus? I sure do. I am going to drive to the beach later today. You are probably heating your house, instead of dressign like you are winter camping.



luckydawg -> RE: OPPS...There Go the Rising Sea Levels! (2/26/2010 1:09:41 PM)

like what Mnot? name one.

I will note you are making personal accusations at me, over and over, in multiple threads.


And you are a coward, unwilling to actually flesh it out.

Just a troll.



mnottertail -> RE: OPPS...There Go the Rising Sea Levels! (2/26/2010 1:22:20 PM)

I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.

prima facie. thanks for playing, and don't forget your troll towel.



luckydawg -> RE: OPPS...There Go the Rising Sea Levels! (2/26/2010 1:30:13 PM)

Um show me a single example of Rightwing hippie chiming in to back up LD. That was a name I used while I was banned. And I openly posted it when I aswitched back to using LD (dawg instead of the still banned dog)


No sockpuppeting at all. Clearly and openly stated that I was switching names, and still the same poster.


and what sort of citation are you asking for in relation to RWH?

And you did use plural (implying there were other things you asked for evidence that I didn't back up). So lets hear one.

Or demonstrate to the room, that you are just like realone. A dumb troll, who can't back up your accusations. And just hurls insults and changes the subject, when asked to back up your assertions.


And let's add "prima facie" to the list of terms you don't know the meaning of....

I got no need for a troll towel. You on the other hand....



mnottertail -> RE: OPPS...There Go the Rising Sea Levels! (2/26/2010 1:34:20 PM)

no, again, you need to back up yours, which you cant. Again, search thru the threads for all the time I asked you for cites that predate this discussion, and when I see them pop up with required cites, I will then accomodate you.

I have no idea why you are obsessing on me like this and trolling. We (and I mean that in the Royal sense, are not amused).

Yawn, yawn, go fuck yourself troll.



luckydawg -> RE: OPPS...There Go the Rising Sea Levels! (2/26/2010 1:48:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Actually you obviously are lying because there is nothing about cost in my post or in what you bolded....

quote:

"but they take as much energy to make as you eventually get out of them"

Here you say that it takes as much energy (cost) as you eventually get out of them. This is a false statement. Depending on the manufacturer the pay back is anywhere betweenh four and twelve years.
So the truth is either you are lying or you cannot read simple english. Nope I never say anything about cost. you made that up. lying. The second you provide any sort of evidence that I was incorrect, I will admit I was wrong.


quote:

and I have acknowledged several times that the hydrogen plan in California is far behind the original schedule.


Wrong again it is not behind schedule it has not even been started. The site you posted shows clearly that those hydrogen facilities that have been built are for central fueling of fleet vehicles. It has indeed been started, and the fleet fueling centers are the first phase of the plan, exactly as the link to the California Government agency working on Hydrogen fueling says.
quote:

I was incorrect about the status of the plan.......

No you lied. No I was mistaken, and have admitted so several times

quote:

Over several years you found one post that was not 100% correct. Works for me.
No that is not true. You keep claiming you post with integrity and that you always acknowledge your mistakes and so far you have tried to spin this shit like a top. As long as you continue I will persist in pointing out the shakey ethical ground you are standing on. I am on very firm ethical ground, unlike you. Name one of these lies, that I haven't adressed. though It does have to be somethign I actually said, not something you are changing what I said to. But I realise as a dumb troll thats the best you can do.





So between RML, thompson, and Mnot (who are all making the same accusation at me) you can only come up with one thing that is not 100% correct. Which I admit, I was wrong about. Silly little trolls. It is cute watching you hold hands and help each other with your arguments.



AnimusRex -> RE: OPPS...There Go the Rising Sea Levels! (2/26/2010 4:01:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg
So the question is "is industrialisation a good or bad thing".


Whoa whoa whoa...slow down there my friend. Industrialization is NOT the enemy. Corporations are NOT the enemy. This is the single biggest misconception of the environmental movement out there.

First, a couple of references- Ray Anderson, CEO of Interface Carpets, a card-carrying industrial tycoon has a new book out- "Confessions of a Radical Industrialist"
The overall thrust of the book is that it is in the long term best interest of industry to adopt business practices that are environmentally sustainable; He is still a businessman, still pursues profit, and sees no conflict between that and sustainable practices.

Another book- "The Natural Step" Which is an organization founded by a Swedish pediatrician, Dr. Karl-Henrik Robert. He noticed that many of his patients were developing childhood cancers, and after years of study, realized that the wasteful practices of carelessly dumping toxic chemicals into the air and water was behind it. His organization is targeted at businesses, encouraging them to adopt practices that result in healthier, cleaner air, water and soil.

My corner of the world, the building design and construction industry, has embraced environmental sustainability with gusto.
Not just the designers and academics- at the last Greenbuild conference I attended, nearly ever major building manufacturing corporation was represented, showing off their latest environmentally friendly products.
An organization I belong to, United States Green Building Council, trains architects and engineers how to design buildings and spaces that are healthier and more efficient.

The point to all this is, the old model of environmentalists being opposed to industry and commerce is long dead. The Green movement sees us- architects, engineers, real estate developers, industrialists- as the solution, not the problem. The same creative energy that caused environmental pollution is being used to fix it.

So go ahead and drive to the beach- industrial designers are working on cars that will get you there on half the gas, with a quarter of the emissions; I just read yesterday that architects in Oregon have designed a 1,200 square foot house that stays toasty warm through the Pacific Northwest winter, using only as much power as a hair dryer.
And this past week, I have been working on a project that will take rainwater, store it, and use it to irrigate landscaping, saving thousands of gallons of water every year- thousands of gallons which would otherwise be taken by force from central California farmers in the perennial water wars.

Environmentalism is a good thing; it results in cleaner water, cleaner air, and soil that produces food that isn't riddled with poisonous chemicals.

And lots of us card-carrying capitalists will make a decent living in the process.



thompsonx -> RE: OPPS...There Go the Rising Sea Levels! (2/26/2010 8:02:36 PM)

quote:

"but they take as much energy to make as you eventually get out of them"


Please explane what this post of yours means if it does not mean that solar pannels are not cost effective.



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