RE: About the "Flood" ... (Full Version)

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Raiikun -> RE: About the "Flood" ... (2/23/2010 9:12:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
Then you'd better hope you have a perfect understanding of your god's plan, because if you are wrong, you'll be punted into the lake of fire just like me.


I have enough understanding to know my salvation is assured. =)  God's already corrected me on some of the important points, and while I still have much to learn, fortunately he's quite patient and willing to teach. =)



BLoved -> RE: About the "Flood" ... (2/23/2010 9:17:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
Then you'd better hope you have a perfect understanding of your god's plan, because if you are wrong, you'll be punted into the lake of fire just like me.

I have enough understanding to know my salvation is assured. =)


~smile~

I hope you are right.

Skinny dipping in a lake of fire is not my idea of a vacation destination.

I'd have thought a god of love could do better.



kittinSol -> RE: About the "Flood" ... (2/23/2010 9:18:55 AM)

The Brick Testament.



InvisibleBlack -> RE: About the "Flood" ... (2/23/2010 9:19:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack
This world, this life - do not matter. What matters is the soul.


If I have an issue with any religion it is the insistence of the religion that life serves no purpose and that we are expected to obey our superiors with mindless faith in the hopes that when we die we will be rewarded.

I'll bet that works out real well for the "superiors".


Nowhere did I say anything about obeying "superiors" nor organized religion.

quote:

I am of the opinion that life does indeed have purpose and meaning: it is an opportunty for us to learn to love one another, here and now.

What matters is whether we love others, and are loved by others.

As I see it, learning to be the best I can be, a life-long process, is my best hope for learning to love and be loved.


I think we're in agreement here. But the purpose of life is not to lead a blissful existance free of pain. Without suffering, without enduring hardship - how can one come to an understanding that others suffer as well? In a world without any pain or tragedy, would one ever be able to develop the compassion and empathy to be able to connect with others, to see yourself in them and them in yoourself, and to understanding that to help - to love and to help those around you - is the higher good?

Children who grow up with everything they want just as they want it do not end up well-adjusted and compassionate souls - they become spoiled monsters.

quote:

I need no faith in a sadistic god to accomplish that purpose.


No one asked you to have any. You asked how it's possible to reconcile God's acts in a Christian context. I'm saying it's possible. You don't have to buy into it - but you can acknowledge that others who do may have valid reasons for doing so.



BLoved -> RE: About the "Flood" ... (2/23/2010 9:27:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
Got a source for this assumption, and that such a creation would infact be human and not a puppet, which is not what God wanted?


To an all-knowing god we are all puppets.

He knew I'd be typing these words when he made the universe. He knows whether I will go to heaven or hell because he knows everything.

Alpha and Omega, and all points in between.

If he didn't want the world to turn out the way it did, he could have created a different world, different kinds of people on it to get a better result.

But since this is the world we're in, this must be the way your god wanted the world to be.

How many people are suffering, and how many of them don't believe in your god? Not only do they suffer through their life, but your god has promised to drop them in the lake of fire at the end because they don't believe in him.

And he knew that before he made the world such that these people would suffer.

This sound like an all-loving god to you?



Raiikun -> RE: About the "Flood" ... (2/23/2010 9:41:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
To an all-knowing god we are all puppets.


I disagree.

quote:

He knew I'd be typing these words when he made the universe. He knows whether I will go to heaven or hell because he knows everything.


If this is true, it still wouldn't make you a puppet. I think you're getting knowledge of one's actions confused with coercion to force that one's actions. I know where my brother's are going to be pretty precisely today within a few minutes accuracy, despite not living with them. Doesn't mean that their locations are going to be such because I willed it so. And it doesn't mean that if God knew you were going to be typing those words, that he forced you to. You did that on your own.

quote:

If he didn't want the world to turn out the way it did, he could have created a different world, different kinds of people on it to get a better result.


That's just it. You don't know what the end result will be. The world is still a work in progress.

quote:

But since this is the world we're in, this must be the way your god wanted the world to be.


A preacher I knew once said God wants everyone to be in heaven, yet hell is still full of folk. Kinda puts into perspective the level of power that God gave us when he created us.

quote:


And he knew that before he made the world such that these people would suffer.

This sound like an all-loving god to you?


My parents knew when we were born that there would be suffering in our lives too at some point. That in no way subtracts from their capacity for love.

Just like it doesn't make God any less loving just because his creation screws up and causes suffering in their lives as a result.

But now we're just going in circles. You have nothing that will prove my faith wrong, and I have no chance of convincing you to open your mind any, so this really is a waste of time.



BLoved -> RE: About the "Flood" ... (2/23/2010 9:43:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
I am of the opinion that life does indeed have purpose and meaning: it is an opportunty for us to learn to love one another, here and now.

What matters is whether we love others, and are loved by others.

As I see it, learning to be the best I can be, a life-long process, is my best hope for learning to love and be loved.


I think we're in agreement here. But the purpose of life is not to lead a blissful existance free of pain. Without suffering, without enduring hardship - how can one come to an understanding that others suffer as well? In a world without any pain or tragedy, would one ever be able to develop the compassion and empathy to be able to connect with others, to see yourself in them and them in yoourself, and to understanding that to help - to love and to help those around you - is the higher good?

Children who grow up with everything they want just as they want it do not end up well-adjusted and compasisonate souls - they become spoiled monsters.


Those are the children who are not loved.

A life of love does not require that there be an end to hardship, tragedy, suffering or pain. All of things are a part of life and none of them require a human to cause them. Natural disasters, accidents and illnesses are cause enough.

I don't think we need experience them personally to relate to the feelings of others. Indeed, our experiences may prevent us from understanding the feelings of others, as there is usually more than one way to deal with tragedy.

I consider how a child will cry if he or she witnesses his/her parent crying. We are naturally sympathetic to the feelings of others. Over time we learn to control that abiity, to shut it off, but it is there, beneath the surface.

quote:

quote:

I need no faith in a sadistic god to accomplish that purpose.


No one asked you to have any. You asked how it's possible to reconcile God's acts in a Christian context. I'm saying it's possible. You don't have to buy into it - but you can acknowledge that others who do may have valid reasons for doing so.


So let's see if I understand correctly.

We have a god in genesis who views us as insignificant specks to be snuffed at whim. No biggie, he can snap his fingers and re-create them.

We have a god in the nt who loves us so much he sacrifices his only son to pay for the sins he allowed to happen when he allowed satan into eden knowing in advance how that would work out.

At no time does god not know what is going to happen in the future. Everything he does, he does knowing full well what the consequences will be.

So the god who thinks of us as specks to be drowned is also the god who loves us so much we should worship him with gratitude that he was willing to sacrifice his only begotten son for our sins, which would never have occurred if he'd kept satan out of eden.

Do I have that right?



Raiikun -> RE: About the "Flood" ... (2/23/2010 9:46:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
Do I have that right?


Nope.  But since you won't be convinced; done wasting time yet?



InvisibleBlack -> RE: About the "Flood" ... (2/23/2010 9:54:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

So let's see if I understand correctly...

<snip>

At no time does god not know what is going to happen in the future. Everything he does, he does knowing full well what the consequences will be...

<snip>

Do I have that right?


Not necessarily. Can you provide me with appropriate Biblical reference for God knowing what's going to happen in the future?



Kirata -> RE: About the "Flood" ... (2/23/2010 9:55:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

I have no chance of convincing you to open your mind any...

You strike me as an odd fellow to be talking about an open mind. [:D]

K.



Raiikun -> RE: About the "Flood" ... (2/23/2010 9:59:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
You strike me as an odd fellow to be talking about an open mind. [:D]


Which shows really how little you know about me. ;)

How I got to where I am is pretty much ditching all preconcieved notions about what I grew up being taught about religion, and seeking on my own, no matter where it would lead me...and ended up learning and developing beliefs that many Christians really disagree with.  (How many Christians do you know that take the creation in Genesis pretty literally, and yet is open to science saying that the earth is billions of years old for instance?)



BLoved -> RE: About the "Flood" ... (2/23/2010 10:00:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
To an all-knowing god we are all puppets.


I disagree.


Are you saying god doesn't know whether I end up in heaven or hell?

Is there anything an omniscient, omnipresent god doesn't know?

This is no more than an elaborate billiard table. If one accurately determines all the forces and vectors, one can accurately predict where each ball will stop before striking the cue ball.

From the point of view of an omnisicent, omnipresent god, that is all we are ... billiard balls.

He knew what satan would do to humans, could have made a universe without satan, what loving father doesn't want the very best for his children?

And yet, your god made satan knowing before he did so all that satan would do.

So everything satan does is by the will of god, because if god didn't want it to happen, it was and always will be in the power of god to change it.

Same goes for adama and eve. God knew long before he made them what the results would be, what you and I would be saying today, whether we will or won't go to heaven judgment day.

If he didn't want it to turn out this way, it was and always will be in his power to change it.

So me refusing to believe in your god is sanctioned by the decision your god made when he made the world in such a way that I would one day be saying this to you.

If he didn't want me doing this, he could have made the universe in a slightly different way where I wouldn't be doing this. Where my life experiences would have been different, where my beliefs would subsequently be different than they are.

Since I am who I am, it must be your god's will that I be this way. He knew I'd be this way when he made the universe, and went ahead with construction anyway.

And since that means I get punted into the lake of fire, that must be the purpose intended for me since the day god made the universe.

I'm an insignifcant speck to be deep fried on judgment day.

God knew this the day he made the universe, and went ahead and made it this way anyway.

So how much does your god love me, to have made a universe where I am destined to be deep fried?



BLoved -> RE: About the "Flood" ... (2/23/2010 10:04:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
So let's see if I understand correctly...

<snip>

At no time does god not know what is going to happen in the future. Everything he does, he does knowing full well what the consequences will be...

<snip>

Do I have that right?

Not necessarily. Can you provide me with appropriate Biblical reference for God knowing what's going to happen in the future?


Will the book of revelations do?

How can you have prophecy if not inspired by a god who knows the future?



Raiikun -> RE: About the "Flood" ... (2/23/2010 10:06:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
To an all-knowing god we are all puppets.


I disagree.


Are you saying god doesn't know whether I end up in heaven or hell?


Once again, way to totally ignore what I actually said, and attack a strawman.  I was disagreeing with us being puppets.

As to wether he knows right now if you're going to end up in heaven or hell...I do not know yet.  There is evidence in the Bible that suggests that while God's knowledge is far beyond ours at presence, that he might not know the minutiae of everything that hasn't happened yet.  Which is why God was once going to act out of anger, and Moses rebuked him, and God repented.  Which is why God asked Adam "Where are you?  How did you know you were naked?" after Adam ate the fruit.  But you just keep going under the same assumptions and using the same arguments even though we've been over it and are going in circles again.

As I said before already, which you again ignored, I believe our paradigms about omniscience and omnipotence need redefined to understand God.  The Bible makes it clear that it's not as simple as you're trying to shoehorn it into.



Kirata -> RE: About the "Flood" ... (2/23/2010 10:07:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

How I got to where I am is pretty much ditching all preconcieved notions about what I grew up being taught about religion, and seeking on my own, no matter where it would lead me...

Really? Okay, fair enough. How many religions have you studied in depth? Have you read the major Upanishads, any of the Siva Agamas, or the sutras of the Vajrayana or the Mahayana? Are you familiar with the Bhagavad Gita or the Bardo Thodol? Have you ever practiced a spiritual discipline for an extended period of time, and for more than 15 minutes a day?

Or did you just decide to study the Bible and reinvent Christianity for yourself?

K.



Raiikun -> RE: About the "Flood" ... (2/23/2010 10:08:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack
quote:

ORIGINAL: BLoved
So let's see if I understand correctly...

<snip>

At no time does god not know what is going to happen in the future. Everything he does, he does knowing full well what the consequences will be...

<snip>

Do I have that right?

Not necessarily. Can you provide me with appropriate Biblical reference for God knowing what's going to happen in the future?


Will the book of revelations do?


Not really.  Telling someone what you plan to do in the future is not exactly the same.

quote:


How can you have prophecy if not inspired by a god who knows the future?


Look at what typical prophecies predict...things that God intends to do in the future.  I can tell you a lot of things about my future, but that doesn't make me omniscient either.  The rest, I just explained in the post above.  Again. 



BLoved -> RE: About the "Flood" ... (2/23/2010 10:09:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
A preacher I knew once said God wants everyone to be in heaven, yet hell is still full of folk. Kinda puts into perspective the level of power that God gave us when he created us.


So what you are saying is all those decent and honourable hindus who in good faith believe in their religion will be punted into the lake of fire by your god of love because none of them believe in your god.

And they deserve that fate?

quote:

quote:


And he knew that before he made the world such that these people would suffer.

This sound like an all-loving god to you?


My parents knew when we were born that there would be suffering in our lives too at some point. That in no way subtracts from their capacity for love.


Your parents are not gods with limitless power.

quote:


Just like it doesn't make God any less loving just because his creation screws up and causes suffering in their lives as a result.


So a loving father allows his kids to play with matches and doesn't take them away when the kids start setting fire to the upholstery?



Kirata -> RE: About the "Flood" ... (2/23/2010 10:11:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

A preacher I knew once said God wants everyone to be in heaven...

A preacher I knew once said you can't take your money with you, but you can send it on ahead [:D]

K.



BLoved -> RE: About the "Flood" ... (2/23/2010 10:12:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
There is evidence in the Bible that suggests that while God's knowledge is far beyond ours at presence, that he might not know the minutiae of everything that hasn't happened yet.  Which is why God was once going to act out of anger, and Moses rebuked him, and God repented.  Which is why God asked Adam "Where are you?  How did you know you were naked?" after Adam ate the fruit.


In other words, because god doesn't know all the consequences of his decision to make the world this way, god can screw up? god can make mistakes?

And I should be worshipping this god because ...?



Raiikun -> RE: About the "Flood" ... (2/23/2010 10:17:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Or did you just decide to study the Bible and reinvent Christianity for yourself?


Assumptions like that and you accuse me of not being open minded? ;)

To accurately describe my journey would be far beyond the scope of this topic.  If you *really* do care to know, rather than just trying to make a "Hah, gotcha!" point, I'd be happy to do my best elsewhere when there's time though.  (And if that was a sincere question I apologize for assuming, but the wording did come across as a loaded "Gotcha!" one).



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