RE: The Left Hand of Slavery-Nlp revisited

RE: The Left Hand of Slavery-Nlp revisited (Full Version)

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MsIncognito -> RE: The Left Hand of Slavery-Nlp revisited (4/5/2006 10:17:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wytchywoman My BS meter always goes into the "red zone" whenever people like Joey and his "fiancee" post BS on any forum. Mine too. Just like it does when someone posts something as ridiculous as "I slept with a clown for 10 years and that's just like going to clown college so I'm able to speak sensibly about what it's like to be a clown." Lots of things I read on this site set off my BS meter but I feel very few deserve the credibility that has been afforded this thread by those who continue to beat a dead horse. I'm with John Warren on this one - (paraphrasing) let everyone speak their mind regardless of whether or not I agree with them. It's the quickest way to seperate the wheat from the chaffe.

BitaTruble -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/5/2006 10:18:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OneX2 You are actually wrong about the girl. There is no need to have to resort to personal attacks to any one. I believe my ideas can coexist with any of yours. Personal attacks are against what these forums are for, and against this culture that was and is judged so harshly. It looks bad on yourself and every one else. Joseph You appear a bit paranoid, Joe. You might want to seek medical attention. Delusions are one of the symptoms of dementia. Celeste

OneX2 -> The Left Hand of Slvery-experience of Hypnotic BDSM (4/5/2006 10:33:29 AM)
I have been asked "What's so different about being under hypnosis in a bondage scene?" I am going to relate this to a very vanilla activity video gaming. Hypnosis and gaming tends to be regarded as a harmless diversion at best, a vile corruptor of youth at worst. Both can certainly be used that way. But the usual critiques fail to recognize its potential for experiential learning. Unlike education acquired through textbooks, lectures, and classroom instruction, what takes place in a hypnotic experience is very much like a game where we learn implicitly as well as explicitly. It's we call accidental learning. It's learning to be - a natural byproduct of adjusting to a new culture - as opposed to learning about. Where traditional learning is based on the execution of carefully graded challenges, accidental learning relies on failure, and generalizing what you do well and carrying a skill over to help you in other areas. So even if the chance of failure is high in a game, the cost is low and the lessons learned are immediate. You are practicing success and experience an adventure. When people begin a quest, whether in a game or hypnotically they often need to attempt particularly difficult challenges repeatedly until they find they've learned a blend of skills, talents, and actions that allows them to succeed. This process brings about a profound shift in how they perceive and react to the world around them. They become more flexible in their thinking and more sensitive to social cues. The fact that they don't think of this experience as fixed training is crucial. Once the experience is explicitly educational, it becomes about developing compartmentalized skills and loses its power to permeate the persons behavior patterns, thoughts, and worldview. I look forward to your thoughts, and thank you for allowing me to post your quesion. Joseph

OneX2 -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/5/2006 10:40:03 AM)
I don't feel I have to defend myself against this kinds of post so I should be an easy target in this one sided insult. What is common sense to one person may not be common sense to another. Joseph

youQadesh -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/5/2006 12:08:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wytchywoman Exactly...this dude no longer has any crediblity on this site and neither does the woman who stands next to him in his profile pic. Whoevever you are...get tested for AIDS, (this said to the person who stands next to Joey) I would never insult anyone on this site. I don't even mean to insult you.. But if you are the broad he bragged about sending dumpster diiving for un-protected cock. then stop lying and get tested for AIDS and other STD'S. As a community we don't need this kind of BS. We get enough from nilla's without you and your -cough- Joe adding to it! Let me spell it out for you for the third time. Yes, Joe said he had a slave at a poker table "dumpster diving"(as you put it) but he didn't say it was me. He said it was his slave. If you would look in his profile you will see that I am not named as his slave. I am his "partner and sub." You can look, but you won't find in any post where he said it was me at the poker table, because he never said it! It was a different girl. I admit it is understandable that you assumed it was me at the time, because it was left unclear, but now you can see that it was a misunderstanding. Infact, here is the exact quote from his "poker post" quote: ORIGINAL: _one_x2 I'm taking my slave to poker night tonight. I also feel the need to clarify any concerns about diseases, as well as some other issues because a few people are actually starting to consider us as a danger to this forum, which genuinely upsets me, and is a gross misconception. If you must now, Joe and I use protection with everyone outside of the two of us. When we allow our girls to engage in unprotected sex it is with men who have been tested within the past two weeks, whom we are close enough with to and trust they to have not been with other people unprotected since. Our girls are not mindless, and they have choices, one of which is to not engage in any unprotected sex if they don't want to. They don't get punished for that, and they are never ordered to have unprotected sex It is completely their choice. I came here wanting to share ideas with like-minded people, about the various ways we all choose to live this lifestyle. I am still hoping to make good friends and acquaintances here. We are honestly not people to be afraid of. We do not have delusions or a desire to control peoples minds against their will(although in some cases people would find that a fetish, in which case we could enjoy that scenario) but ultimately every person has free will. There are naive people in this life style that could potentially be easily manipulated, but Joe and I certainly don't want someone like that. Our ideal matches are people who are educated, mature, and comfortable in their own skin. My favorite slave was a 40 year old male realtor, a single father, who prided himself as a father first. He was well of, and very smart...obviously neither I, or Joe could control his mind, and we wouldn’t want to. I enjoy learning hypnotic and NLP language patterns to make our experiences in this lifestyle better for everyone involved. It is a tool I use to forge stronger connections with people I care about. For me it is no different than learning how to be more emotionally intelligent, or how to increase charisma to be a better person in general. Sure in the wrong hands, like anything else these methods can be harmful to impressionable people. Remember, the very technology that allows us to explore space also helps design bombs to kill people. Since some can’t get around the peasant reference in Joe’s profile I will tell you first that if we really did want a village of peasants there wouldn’t be anything wrong with that. Mostly, because we would never succeed. Might I remind you that we live in a country where peasant haven’t existed for over one hundred years, and since we don’t plan on time travel any time soon, you can be assured we won’t ever have our village of peasants. It’s merely a tongue and cheek comment blown way out of proportion. We don’t really want to rule over a group of peasants, ok? I hope I calmed some nerves. I didn't want to have to express all of this about myself in the context of defending my name against being considered dangerous. I feel strongly that my fiancé and I have been wrongly judged here. If you are still convinced we are dangerous, because you seem to be investing a great amount of energy convincing others that we are, then I don’t know what to say to you accept that I am sorry, because you are wrong.

youQadesh -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/5/2006 12:16:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wytchywoman The mods have caught onto him even if you haven't. Do you even know why he is waiting for approval? And secondly, Just incase you didn’t know, insinuating to someone that you know their fiancé better than they do, when all you have experienced is a few days of posting on a forum is insulting to me

BitaTruble -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/5/2006 12:31:45 PM)
quote: Since some can’t get around the peasant reference in Joe’s profile I will tell you first that if we really did want a village of peasants there wouldn’t be anything wrong with that. Mostly, because we would never succeed. Might I remind you that we live in a country where peasant haven’t existed for over one hundred years, and since we don’t plan on time travel any time soon, you can be assured we won’t ever have our village of peasants. It’s merely a tongue and cheek comment blown way out of proportion. We don’t really want to rule over a group of peasants, ok? Whether or not you want a village of peasants, a bevy of beauties or a stable of slaves is, indeed, your business and I would fight for your rights to live your life as you choose. "I seek to create a village of peasants here that I will rule over. This idea of mine is very close to a communal life." The statement is clear and concise and there's nothing wrong with it, but don't insult anyone's intelligence by saying it's something it is not. Own it, embrace it and let it empower you. If you truly believe there's nothing wrong with it, quit trying to defend it and saying it wasn't meant. Ok, I'm done. I've learned all I need to know here. Be well. I leave the thread to those who can gain something from it which I cannot. Celeste edited to try to correct font issue

youQadesh -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/5/2006 12:47:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble The statement is clear and concise and there's nothing wrong with it, but don't insult anyone's intelligence by saying it's something it is not. Own it, embrace it and let it empower you. If you truly believe there's nothing wrong with it, quit trying to defend it and saying it wasn't meant. Nowhere in trying to clarify the truth of the matter did I intend to insult anyone’s intelligence. If anything your statement was insulting by saying you know what it is more than I do. I stand by what I said about the peasant comment. It IS tongue and cheek. That’s that. Believe what you will [8\|] edited for spelling errors

OneX2 -> The Left Hand of Slavery-Define Love (4/5/2006 3:32:30 PM)
You can’t put it in a box. How do you define love for yourself? I have found there are many different loves throughout your life. As many as there are lovers some one could argue. Not only is recognizing the emotion important, but how do you realize it is happening to yourself? You may have a slave tell you She/He loves you while being whipped, but is it the very same love you have for your wife? Maybe? I am curious how others realize this within themselves. Joseph

OneX2 -> RE: The Left Hand of Slavery-Easter Bondage (4/5/2006 5:11:43 PM)
Does any one do any thing special? Whether it is hide the eggs with your slave? Or perhaps going out to dinner with a remote control egg vib hidden well? I toy withis idea of themes. Do you? Joseph

ArtCatDom -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/5/2006 6:40:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OneX2 Actually I do check your sites. I go to them and some are very good. I agree with you that some people who do NLP should not be practicing it. You are familiar with the lawsuit Bandler filed years ago that took NLP out of his hands? That’s when people who simply read his book started opening up shop. I actually support you going on about it because it will make any one think about what they have learned and are learning. The delivery could be a bit smoother, but it works. I did not come here to do lit searches. The ideas can take care of themselves, and through the exchange maybe it will help improve them. Joseph If you had actually checked my sites in the first place you would not have made the claim they are based in opinion and not peer-reviewed science. Both links are entirely based on upon such literature. One was a summary overview largely based upon one review of such literature available in journals. The other was nothing but a list of abstracts about NLP studies. I am well aware of the lawsuit. In the UK Bandler lost the trademark for NLP. In the United States, it was found that Bandler misrepresented his contribution and legal founding for control of the property. However, Grinder (whose contributions were central to the findings of the US and UK courts) entered into a legal agreement with Bandler to "share" the properties and to refrain from interfering with each other. The trademarks remain in most Berne nations under the auspices of this agreement. Your closing statement says to me that you can't find any supporting literature. You said previously you were aware of it but just didn't mention it because it would be "boring" in such a forum. Put up if you can. I can provide you dozens of studies showing NLP is not effective, not safe and is even wrong in its basic assumptions. The one link with the 100+ abstracts can yield that in less than an hour of reviewing the studies. Can't you provide even a handful showing opposing evidence? meow

ArtCatDom -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery-Hypnotic Viagra (4/5/2006 6:43:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OneX2 According to the Professor I work with they are mistaken. As a matter of fact you can find that in books on counseling now. I am more interested in how you use what you know. How do you put all of your training into practice? It seems like you may have a good linguistic back ground. Share. Joseph How exactly are we supposed to believe you have the detailed attention and linguistic skill necessary that NLP says it requires, when you can't even follow a forum thread? We were talking about the postage stamp test. Care to try replying again to what the topic at hand? What were you referring to? It's not "training". It's study. It's practice. I mainly put it into use in my freelance writing. meow

ArtCatDom -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/5/2006 6:51:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OneX2 My reasons for being here are not to defend myself. They are to find new ideas and like minded people. You are welcome to copy paste more, you can share of yourself which is often harder, or you can do what ever it is you want to do. It doesn't really matter. I try an answer those people here who are respectful and seem like they are curious and want to exchange ideas. If people don't answer you it is because you don't make them want to. It doesn't mean you are right or wrong. It simply means you get off bullying. It is a shame because you seem well educated at times, and it may affect a few people if you were to pay attention to your use of language. Joseph I haven't copy pasted once. I've provided some links and that's about it. I think you just cannot defend your assertions. You accuse me of copy-pasting, accuse LISTS OF ACADEMIC PAPERS of being opinion sites, say you won't provide academic references because they're boring, then say you won't provide academic references because that's not the point, you advocate out-of-date medical advice and so on. I agree my language is stark. I have a strong antipathy towards NLP and I'm not going to pretend otherwise. However, I've been able to back up my assertions with verifiable information. All you've done is backpeddle. If pushing you to provide tangible support for your pseudo-scientific assertions and calling you on out-of-date medical advice is "bullying" then by all means, call me a bully to your heart's content. Just don't pretend that you have a superior position by avoiding pointed questions and refusing to provide support. meow

ArtCatDom -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/5/2006 7:03:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OneX2 quote: ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom Because NLP is utterly unsupported (and in fact contradicted) by peer-review studies. On the contrary, it is contradicted by those studies. At one time so was hypnosis. False. It may have a negative reputation. However, there never was a strong body of peer-reviewed literature contradicting hypnosis as there is for NLP. quote: quote: It's harmful and predatory. Harmful because it inhibits and discourages people from seeking treatment they may need for mental health issues. Predatory because it is an industry geared towards ensuring people pay for more assistance and training constantly. I don't know of any NLP community that would say you don't need a doctor ,come here. I think that is more a individual problem. Even counselors need updated credits every year. What a dodge! NLP is used as a replacement for legitimate psychological counseling. You cannot deny this. Given it's been proven to be less effective than untrained group counseling and co-counseling, I'd call that dangerous. And if it were a founded legitimate discipline, your assertion about counselors needing updated credits would be fine, however it is not. Once again, peer-reviewed literature shows it to be highly ineffective and occasionally harmful. quote: quote: It is right in the same ballpark as Scientology in that regard. Additionally, he presents it as a valid and scientifically supported discipline, which is utter horseshit. Still don't have a good enough frame to see if what you say here is correct. I do see how you can say they are similar by the exercises. You never did say really what has gotten you so heated about them? Is it some thing you saw? Read? Yes I did say what bothers me about them. Yes I note some of their similarities. I will again encourage you to read what I've already written. For someone who claims to know so much about hypnosis and NLP, you surely have a poor ability to read what is written. meow

ArtCatDom -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/5/2006 7:12:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsIncognito quote: ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom Because NLP is utterly unsupported (and in fact contradicted) by peer-review studies. On the contrary, it is contradicted by those studies. It's harmful and predatory. Harmful because it inhibits and discourages people from seeking treatment they may need for mental health issues. Predatory because it is an industry geared towards ensuring people pay for more assitance and training constantly. It is right in the same ballpark as Scientology in that regard. Additionally, he presents it as a valid and scientifically supported discipline, which is utter horseshit. meow Maybe I'm the odd one out, but I feel that most people are able to smell horseshit when it's in the vacinity. While the stench may be overwhelming, I'm not too worried about poor, unsuspecting subbies being taken advantage of by Joe. I give the majority of people way more credit for intelligence than that. Plus, I'm not really into dressing up my own intolerance as concern for the poor, wee little subbies out there. If I just can't accept something I'll say so and own that opinion/feeling/intolerance but the way some claim "If only one subbie is saved it's all worth it!!" is simply intolerance masquerading as concern for "the community." Colour me cynical. I've experienced just how short-sighted, gullible and unthinking the vast bulk of humanity is. I do not have even faith that the majority of people could smell bullshit when it was wiped on their face. However, I never claimed to be out to save anyone. I have a strong antipathy towards NLP and other such pseudoscience. It is my own strong feelings about the matter that drive my postings, not some misplaced sense of chivalry. Call it a pet peeve. I just cannot tolerate people masquerading bunk as legitimate science. Ironically enough though, I'm far from being a secular humanist skeptic. meow

OneX2 -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/5/2006 7:46:27 PM)
youQadesh posted for you. I felt no need to debate this any further. I am interested to see your take on it all, but don't feel the need to defend it. I will say my peace and that is good. Actually you can download the whole court doc for the lawsuit. My main focus is to bring useable bits of chunks in that every one can talk about. Joseph

OneX2 -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery-Hypnotic Viagra (4/5/2006 7:50:01 PM)
Than you must be able to discuss something with some one with out actually insulting them? It gets a better result if you want your question answered when you use that study and practice. Joseph

OneX2 -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/5/2006 8:00:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom I agree my language is stark. I have a strong antipathy towards NLP and I'm not going to pretend otherwise. However, I've been able to back up my assertions with verifiable information. All you've done is backpeddle. If pushing you to provide tangible support for your pseudo-scientific assertions and calling you on out-of-date medical advice is "bullying" then by all means, call me a bully to your heart's content. Just don't pretend that you have a superior position by avoiding pointed questions and refusing to provide support. meow I thank you for posting in a way that invites answering. I haven't provided you with extra links because youQadesh already did. I don't mind that you really have an intense apathy to NLP. In fact I am hoping to discover what you seem to have moved on to and why, and I don't take any of this as win or lose. If we did every time any one would cop and attitude we would all be losing because it discourages people from posting. That post that could have been there could have shifted us into a new direction. Looking forward to talking with you again. On to the next post. Joseph

OneX2 -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/5/2006 8:18:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom quote: ORIGINAL: OneX2 quote: ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom Because NLP is utterly unsupported (and in fact contradicted) by peer-review studies. On the contrary, it is contradicted by those studies. At one time so was hypnosis. quote: False. It may have a negative reputation. However, there never was a strong body of peer-reviewed literature contradicting hypnosis as there is for NLP. . I disagree here. For some time many Scientists tried to prove there was no such thing as hypnosis but it kept popping back up. I don't think NLP will go away either. I don't have as much experience studying Linguistics so speaking as some one who has some experience in this area what do you have anything you study that is like it? quote: quote: It's harmful and predatory. Harmful because it inhibits and discourages people from seeking treatment they may need for mental health issues. Predatory because it is an industry geared towards ensuring people pay for more assistance and training constantly. I don't know of any NLP community that would say you don't need a doctor ,come here. I think that is more a individual problem. Even counselors need updated credits every year. quote: What a dodge! NLP is used as a replacement for legitimate psychological counseling. You cannot deny this. Given it's been proven to be less effective than untrained group counseling and co-counseling, I'd call that dangerous. And if it were a founded legitimate discipline, your assertion about counselors needing updated credits would be fine, however it is not. Once again, peer-reviewed literature shows it to be highly ineffective and occasionally harmful. I will tell you that if some one were a practioner of any area of study and they said you don't need a therapist any more after this there maybe some thing wrong there. If you had read the threads posted you can see that is not the case. At the same time I could probably find very easily a peer reviewed article stating that people who partake in bdsm have pathology. I think here we will have to agree to disagree. quote: quote: It is right in the same ballpark as Scientology in that regard. Additionally, he presents it as a valid and scientifically supported discipline, which is utter horseshit. Still don't have a good enough frame to see if what you say here is correct. I do see how you can say they are similar by the exercises. You never did say really what has gotten you so heated about them? Is it some thing you saw? Read? quote: Yes I did say what bothers me about them. Yes I note some of their similarities. I will again encourage you to read what I've already written. For someone who claims to know so much about hypnosis and NLP, you surely have a poor ability to read what is written. meow I could say the same thing about you. If you had read the posts before mine the articles link were there. Lets take this into the area of experience- without revealing to much of who you are how exactly do you use your skills? Can you benefit us in any other way than picking something to pieces and adding very little? You said a lot here, and when you are not insulting you can be very articulate. That is the man who is the freelance writer I'm sure. This is the man I am answering now.You've given the facts, now, what makes this worth wild and personal to you? What ever we teach, we teach who we are. It's a reflection we all should look at. Joseph

OneX2 -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/5/2006 8:29:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom Colour me cynical. I've experienced just how short-sighted, gullible and unthinking the vast bulk of humanity is. I do not have even faith that the majority of people could smell bullshit when it was wiped on their face. That has to be a hard way to live. It also some thing that is a learned skill, and many people don't know how to read stats. If you know how to debunk them than you are ahead of the game! quote: However, I never claimed to be out to save anyone. This is an odd statement unless you feel you have to protect yourself or some one else. I never said I was here to fix or save any one. It is possiable that you are running off something you read the wrong way. quote: I have a strong antipathy towards NLP and other such pseudoscience. It is my own strong feelings about the matter that drive my postings, not some misplaced sense of chivalry. Call it a pet peeve. I just cannot tolerate people masquerading bunk as legitimate science. Ironically enough though, I'm far from being a secular humanist skeptic. I think we have settled this as much as we can. We disagree. where did you happen to go from there and why? I don't recall you ever mentioning that. Joseph meow

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