RE: The Left Hand of Slvery

RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (Full Version)

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ArtCatDom -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/5/2006 9:18:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OneX2 youQadesh posted for you. I felt no need to debate this any further. I am interested to see your take on it all, but don't feel the need to defend it. I will say my peace and that is good. Actually you can download the whole court doc for the lawsuit. My main focus is to bring useable bits of chunks in that every one can talk about. Joseph All she said was: "It’s not that hard to find peer reviewed articles promoting NLP. All it took was going on my University database and looking up NLP. I got almost 300 articles. Some of the journals which included NLP techniques in there articles were The Training and Development Journal, European Journal of Clinical Hypnosis, Health Care Counseling and Psychotherapy Journal, Primary Care Mental Health, and the list literally goes on and on. I searched through 100 of them so far and every single one deals with the true applicability of NLP." I have access to journals databases. I also know where to look on the publicly accessible web for compilations. (Such as the link with the copious abstract listing.) All that's apparent is that your sub apparently is reading quite a differant body of literature than I am. In my searches, all I have been able to find are inconclusive results and negative results in relation to NLP. You can easily verify my assertion by reviewing the abstracts in the listing I linked. Her assertion that "every single one deals with the true applicability of NLP" is almost assuredly a bald-faced lie, or a demonstration of the complete inability to research academic papers. Regardless, she has not shown a single reference. All she has done is made an assertion that is demonstratably false. The only "positive" results for NLP occur when NLP is combined with standard therapies. This usually involves Erickson hypnosis (often conflated with but seperate from NLP) and the Milton Model (in abstracts often simply referred to as NLP, the limited use of NLP via the MM revealed in the paper itself), in combination with standard counseling and drug treatments. In the world of peer-review, that means NLP (as itself, on its own) has an "inconclusive" result (since it has not been shown to be effective on its own). Additionally, the Milton Model could be entirely accurate while NLP is still ineffective. Co-counseling for example is useful in many instances, however Dianetics (which is based on co-counseling) and Scientology are still invalid, ineffective and dangerous. Regardless, it is well accepted in academic circles the Milton Model is generally correct ("artfully vague" or suggestive language is more useful in behavior modification than direct statements). This is unsurprising since the Milton Model is little more than an analysis (so much NLP not being analytical) of a well-respected hypnotherapist's linguistic cues. Studies focusing on NLP itself always show clearly inconclusive or negative findings. NLP's ideas of representational systems have especially been torn asunder under the scrutiny of peer review. Eye accessing cues have had the best results and still those studies are all inconclusive and, even worse, produced contradictory results. So, if she has access to those articles, I ask for only a handful. I would ask for any which clearly demonstrate the effectiveness of NLP and whose "NLP" content is not entirely dependant on a pairing of Erickson hypnosis and the Milton Model. Title, date and publication would more than suffice. Why bring up the court cases again? I'm obviously familiar with them. meow

ArtCatDom -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery-Hypnotic Viagra (4/5/2006 9:21:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OneX2 Than you must be able to discuss something with some one with out actually insulting them? It gets a better result if you want your question answered when you use that study and practice. Joseph Quite right. However, I've no problem stating my opinion, nor sharing my observations. If those opinions and observations offend others, I've no worries for it. I'll not pretend to feel and think otherwise for the benefit of others. If your only excuse for not answering my concerns and questions is because I'm being mean, you deserve for me to hell of a lot more insulting than I have been. meow

ArtCatDom -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/5/2006 9:38:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OneX2 quote: ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom I agree my language is stark. I have a strong antipathy towards NLP and I'm not going to pretend otherwise. However, I've been able to back up my assertions with verifiable information. All you've done is backpeddle. If pushing you to provide tangible support for your pseudo-scientific assertions and calling you on out-of-date medical advice is "bullying" then by all means, call me a bully to your heart's content. Just don't pretend that you have a superior position by avoiding pointed questions and refusing to provide support. meow I thank you for posting in a way that invites answering. I haven't provided you with extra links because youQadesh already did. I don't mind that you really have an intense apathy to NLP. In fact I am hoping to discover what you seem to have moved on to and why, and I don't take any of this as win or lose. If we did every time any one would cop and attitude we would all be losing because it discourages people from posting. That post that could have been there could have shifted us into a new direction. Looking forward to talking with you again. On to the next post. Joseph More problems with the truth Joe? You just keep piling on the falsehoods higher and higher ... She did not post any links on the matter. She made a bunch of false assertions and it's obvious that in at least some of it she had no clue what she's discussing. "Scientology is a group of people who live a dream world where god can cure little kids of a brain tumors", she said. She obviously has no conception whatsoever what Scientology is actually about. She might have been correct is she were referring to Christian Scientists. But alas, she was talking about Scientology in apparently total ignorance of what they are, what they do or what they believe. If I'm wrong, please by all means, show me where she posted those links. I double checked. http://www.collarchat.com/searchpro.asp?phrase=&author=youQadesh&forumid=ALL&topicreply=both&message=body&timeframe=%3E&timefilter=0&language=single&top=300&criteria=AND&minRank=0&sortMethod=r&submitbutton=+OK+ meow

ArtCatDom -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/5/2006 10:18:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OneX2 I disagree here. For some time many Scientists tried to prove there was no such thing as hypnosis but it kept popping back up. I don't think NLP will go away either. I don't have as much experience studying Linguistics so speaking as some one who has some experience in this area what do you have anything you study that is like it? There's a world of differance between men using their guise as scientists to try and discredit something (as happened with hypnosis) and well-reviewed scientific studies providing negative results (such as for NLP). Hypnosis did not undergo the kind of rigorous testing that modern peer-review provides during it's periods of unpopularity. Comparing the social prejudice might be apt, but trying to compare the scientific prejudice is matching apples and oranges. quote: quote: What a dodge! NLP is used as a replacement for legitimate psychological counseling. You cannot deny this. Given it's been proven to be less effective than untrained group counseling and co-counseling, I'd call that dangerous. And if it were a founded legitimate discipline, your assertion about counselors needing updated credits would be fine, however it is not. Once again, peer-reviewed literature shows it to be highly ineffective and occasionally harmful. I will tell you that if some one were a practioner of any area of study and they said you don't need a therapist any more after this there maybe some thing wrong there. If you had read the threads posted you can see that is not the case. At the same time I could probably find very easily a peer reviewed article stating that people who partake in bdsm have pathology. I think here we will have to agree to disagree. If that is so, then why does NLP focus so much on quick fix psychology? Swishes anyone? You can say that all you would like, however the average person seeking assistance will not have the depth of knowledge needed to understand the distinction. When the person they are going to says they're a counselor and says they'll assist them with a phobia (a common swish target), how would you expect them to believe they would need standard psychological assistance as well? Why would they need real counseling when NLP is going to fix the problem? Your comparion of NLP to BDSM is hardly apt. Surely, you can find plenty of articles indicating BDSM itself is a pathology or symptomatic of underlying issues. However, you can also find plenty of articles supporting BDSM as a perfectly healthy lifestyle choice. I will again reiterate part of NLP's problem is a lack of supporting evidence. quote: quote: quote: quote: It is right in the same ballpark as Scientology in that regard. Additionally, he presents it as a valid and scientifically supported discipline, which is utter horseshit. Still don't have a good enough frame to see if what you say here is correct. I do see how you can say they are similar by the exercises. You never did say really what has gotten you so heated about them? Is it some thing you saw? Read? Yes I did say what bothers me about them. Yes I note some of their similarities. I will again encourage you to read what I've already written. For someone who claims to know so much about hypnosis and NLP, you surely have a poor ability to read what is written. meow I could say the same thing about you. If you had read the posts before mine the articles link were there. Lets take this into the area of experience- without revealing to much of who you are how exactly do you use your skills? Can you benefit us in any other way than picking something to pieces and adding very little? You said a lot here, and when you are not insulting you can be very articulate. That is the man who is the freelance writer I'm sure. This is the man I am answering now.You've given the facts, now, what makes this worth wild and personal to you? You mean that link that doesn't exist that your sub posted? I think unfortuantely that means it's not applicable to me, but rather reinforces the application to you. I use my rhetorical skill in my writing mainly. This does include less savory ends including ad copy and political speeches/mailings. I say less savory because the structure of such efforts are specifically directed towards some manipulation, even if it's just riling emotion or catching attention, or in the end just sounding attractive and agreeable. I would gladly engage in any discussion involving rhetoric and honestly would be more than pleased to discuss the Milton Model and it's predecessors. (The MM really is just a counseling/hypnotherapy application of rhetorical principles espoused as far back as the ancient Greeks.) It matters a lot to me because I know what negative effects NLP and other practives have had on people. I have had friends and loved ones harmed by pseudoscience like Scientology and NLP. Also, the portrayal of bunk science as real science is simply a pet peeve for me. quote: What ever we teach, we teach who we are. It's a reflection we all should look at. I agree pretty much wholeheartedly on that point. meow

ArtCatDom -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/5/2006 10:22:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OneX2 quote: ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom Colour me cynical. I've experienced just how short-sighted, gullible and unthinking the vast bulk of humanity is. I do not have even faith that the majority of people could smell bullshit when it was wiped on their face. That has to be a hard way to live. It also some thing that is a learned skill, and many people don't know how to read stats. If you know how to debunk them than you are ahead of the game! Not at all. I rather enjoy being cynical yet optimistic. Working jobs like tech support was the hard way to live. ;) quote: However, I never claimed to be out to save anyone. This is an odd statement unless you feel you have to protect yourself or some one else. I never said I was here to fix or save any one. It is possiable that you are running off something you read the wrong way. sigh Please go back to my post and read the message it was in response to. quote: quote: I have a strong antipathy towards NLP and other such pseudoscience. It is my own strong feelings about the matter that drive my postings, not some misplaced sense of chivalry. Call it a pet peeve. I just cannot tolerate people masquerading bunk as legitimate science. Ironically enough though, I'm far from being a secular humanist skeptic. I think we have settled this as much as we can. We disagree. where did you happen to go from there and why? I don't recall you ever mentioning that. I never went anywhere from NLP. I don't need self-help gurus to run my life, nor do I need anything to take the place of NLP in my life. I find my spirituality and my medical professionals to take care of any such needs. meow

MsIncognito -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/6/2006 5:18:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom However, I never claimed to be out to save anyone. I have a strong antipathy towards NLP and other such pseudoscience. It is my own strong feelings about the matter that drive my postings, not some misplaced sense of chivalry. Call it a pet peeve. I just cannot tolerate people masquerading bunk as legitimate science. Ironically enough though, I'm far from being a secular humanist skeptic. Actually, I realize where you're coming from and you've been a vocal, yet reasonable and logical participant in this thread. I can respect the way you've put your ideas forth here. My post was a combination of thoughts on how several other posters have reacted to this thread, not you specifically. Being me, I was too lazy to reply to all of them individually and just posted a bulk message which addressed all the different issues that were floating around in my head at the time. Not all of them were meant to be directed at you specifically. However, I still believe there are many who do dress up their intolerance as concern for the community or a desire to save people from themselves. I'm big on personal responsibility (which I know is a novel concept in this community) and I believe everyone is responsible for their decisions. I've been burned in the past just like many others have been but I realize I played a role in that by choosing to put myself in certain situations. That doesn't negate the other person's responsibility for taking advantage but it does keep me from pretending to be a hapless little waif who is at the mercy of every snake oil salesman who blows through town.

OneX2 -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/6/2006 6:39:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom quote: ORIGINAL: OneX2 youQadesh posted for you. I felt no need to debate this any further. I am interested to see your take on it all, but don't feel the need to defend it. I will say my peace and that is good. Actually you can download the whole court doc for the lawsuit. My main focus is to bring useable bits of chunks in that every one can talk about. Joseph All she said was: "It’s not that hard to find peer reviewed articles promoting NLP. All it took was going on my University database and looking up NLP. I got almost 300 articles. Some of the journals which included NLP techniques in there articles were The Training and Development Journal, European Journal of Clinical Hypnosis, Health Care Counseling and Psychotherapy Journal, Primary Care Mental Health, and the list literally goes on and on. I searched through 100 of them so far and every single one deals with the true applicability of NLP." I have access to journals databases. I also know where to look on the publicly accessible web for compilations. (Such as the link with the copious abstract listing.) All that's apparent is that your sub apparently is reading quite a differant body of literature than I am. In my searches, all I have been able to find are inconclusive results and negative results in relation to NLP. You can easily verify my assertion by reviewing the abstracts in the listing I linked. Her assertion that "every single one deals with the true applicability of NLP" is almost assuredly a bald-faced lie, or a demonstration of the complete inability to research academic papers. Regardless, she has not shown a single reference. All she has done is made an assertion that is demonstratably false. The only "positive" results for NLP occur when NLP is combined with standard therapies. This usually involves Erickson hypnosis (often conflated with but seperate from NLP) and the Milton Model (in abstracts often simply referred to as NLP, the limited use of NLP via the MM revealed in the paper itself), in combination with standard counseling and drug treatments. In the world of peer-review, that means NLP (as itself, on its own) has an "inconclusive" result (since it has not been shown to be effective on its own). Additionally, the Milton Model could be entirely accurate while NLP is still ineffective. Co-counseling for example is useful in many instances, however Dianetics (which is based on co-counseling) and Scientology are still invalid, ineffective and dangerous. Regardless, it is well accepted in academic circles the Milton Model is generally correct ("artfully vague" or suggestive language is more useful in behavior modification than direct statements). This is unsurprising since the Milton Model is little more than an analysis (so much NLP not being analytical) of a well-respected hypnotherapist's linguistic cues. Studies focusing on NLP itself always show clearly inconclusive or negative findings. NLP's ideas of representational systems have especially been torn asunder under the scrutiny of peer review. Eye accessing cues have had the best results and still those studies are all inconclusive and, even worse, produced contradictory results. So, if she has access to those articles, I ask for only a handful. I would ask for any which clearly demonstrate the effectiveness of NLP and whose "NLP" content is not entirely dependant on a pairing of Erickson hypnosis and the Milton Model. Title, date and publication would more than suffice. Why bring up the court cases again? I'm obviously familiar with them. meow I have to say that was written very well. I cannot argue with what you just said about the effectiveness of using NLP and hypnosis together. That is how is you should be learning it. That is how I know it, and I haven't been a part of a program that didn't have those two elements together. So you maybe completely correct on NLP effectiveness with simple linguistic turn arounds. I bring up the court cases again because after the court decisions were made no one had to check and get the ok from the creators of the discipline to use the name and start one of their own. That is when it started to really get whacky and watered down in my opinion. Looking at it like this, I will say you have convinced me that there is a separation in this field. Have you studied hypnosis? I would welcome your opinion in this way to what ever I have posted. Joseph

OneX2 -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery-Hypnotic Viagra (4/6/2006 6:55:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom Quite right. However, I've no problem stating my opinion, nor sharing my observations. If those opinions and observations offend others, I've no worries for it. I'll not pretend to feel and think otherwise for the benefit of others. Looking back at what you publicly say about how intelligent, and how mostly people have inability to discriminate anything different than what your stating opinion… you will most likely not get an answer that is constructive for any one. quote: ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom If your only excuse for not answering my concerns and questions is because I'm being mean, you deserve for me to hell of a lot more insulting than I have been. meow I know you realize that attempting to smear anything in any one's face true, false, or otherwise, along with a personal attack/ insult will simply leave you with your own opinion. That is not the reason for these forums. It shouldn't be about I believe this and I'm going to stick it in every ones face. It's about connecting and learning from each other. All that you do with insults is back peddle so no one really wants to answer you more than this. In fact it is hard to take you seriously when you do it. Raving conspiracy theorists and lunatics have opinions, and they are just as vocal if not more so. The difference is civility, and that gets you answered and your point across. I hope you continue to post. You are bright, and I am not shy to say I have taken away some good tidbits in which you shared. Thanks. Joseph

OneX2 -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/6/2006 7:12:44 AM)
I looked back and you are correct she did not post the link as I believe she said she would. My apologies to you. I was wrong there. In a few posts back I think we have settled this, agreeing, and disagreeing. I will say that I don't agree with any one doing NLP telling someone that they don't need their Doctor any more. In fact, I'm sure seeing those you have loved hurt was difficult, and made you educate yourself to the distinctions of Peer review and journals. I can see from your form and structure of your writing you must make a great writer of political and ad copy material. I look forward to reading more of what you have to share. I am sure both myself and Morgan can plainly say we are ignorant of scientology. You made some very useful distinctions, even though the spreading falsehood on falsehood line was a bit dramatic. Joseph Joseph

OneX2 -> The Left Hand of Slvery-Hypnotic Submission (4/6/2006 9:48:15 AM)
Interesting ideas for Bdsm and submission You will notice that each session is called a curse. I like the slang for it, and believe it fits well for BDSM purposes. Again this in no way replaces the traditional Master/Slave relationship. It is meant to enhance it, and may not be for every one. This will hypnotic curse you so that whenever you see a woman's panties you immediately get an erection that lasts a LONG time and you can't hide it. It also makes you want to masturbate but you can't orgasm for a LONG time. This hypnotic curse will make you extremely horny. The horniest you have ever been. You will be compelled to either masturbate or have sex as soon as possible after listening in order to relieve your horniness. Warning: this file is extremely addictive. This will hypnotic curse turns you on so much that every time you hear me say IMAGINE your unconscious mind surrenders and becomes my slave! Whenever having a quite moment this hypnotic curse will pop images in the listener mind of wearing diapers, and when in a safe place they will be unable to control their bladder. Have an interesting idea for a hypnotic session? Joseph

OneX2 -> The Left Hand of Slvery-Giving back (4/6/2006 11:26:41 AM)
Do you as a slave, or as a master expect to have contributions of money come back into the house every week from those in your service? I have found there are differing attitudes on this topic, but I feel that a small token should be excepted when living in your service? Anyone feel differently, or have a plan of their own that they use? Joseph

ArtCatDom -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/6/2006 5:38:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsIncognito quote: ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom However, I never claimed to be out to save anyone. I have a strong antipathy towards NLP and other such pseudoscience. It is my own strong feelings about the matter that drive my postings, not some misplaced sense of chivalry. Call it a pet peeve. I just cannot tolerate people masquerading bunk as legitimate science. Ironically enough though, I'm far from being a secular humanist skeptic. Actually, I realize where you're coming from and you've been a vocal, yet reasonable and logical participant in this thread. I can respect the way you've put your ideas forth here. My post was a combination of thoughts on how several other posters have reacted to this thread, not you specifically. Being me, I was too lazy to reply to all of them individually and just posted a bulk message which addressed all the different issues that were floating around in my head at the time. Not all of them were meant to be directed at you specifically. However, I still believe there are many who do dress up their intolerance as concern for the community or a desire to save people from themselves. I'm big on personal responsibility (which I know is a novel concept in this community) and I believe everyone is responsible for their decisions. I've been burned in the past just like many others have been but I realize I played a role in that by choosing to put myself in certain situations. That doesn't negate the other person's responsibility for taking advantage but it does keep me from pretending to be a hapless little waif who is at the mercy of every snake oil salesman who blows through town. Personal responsibility is a good virtue, I'd utterly agree. While some of my worst experiences have been inflicted upon me (being shot for example), my place in that situation was a result of my own choices (joing the military). I do agree that large numbers of people will try to blame EVERYTHING on someone else and refuse to take up any of their own responsibility for their situation. I still cynically believe most people couldn't tell a lump of crap if it was smeared on their face. However, I will utterly agree that much of the time, people just need to open their eyes or rub together a few brain cells. meow

ArtCatDom -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/6/2006 5:50:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OneX2 I have to say that was written very well. I cannot argue with what you just said about the effectiveness of using NLP and hypnosis together. That is how is you should be learning it. That is how I know it, and I haven't been a part of a program that didn't have those two elements together. So you maybe completely correct on NLP effectiveness with simple linguistic turn arounds. I bring up the court cases again because after the court decisions were made no one had to check and get the ok from the creators of the discipline to use the name and start one of their own. That is when it started to really get whacky and watered down in my opinion. Looking at it like this, I will say you have convinced me that there is a separation in this field. Have you studied hypnosis? I would welcome your opinion in this way to what ever I have posted. Ah, I am beginning to think that we are referencing two differant bodies of knowledge as NLP. Correct me if I am wrong but what you practice is Erickson hypnosis using the Milton Model and making some use of the metamodel as a "roadmap". Am I incorrect in that guess? The NLP I take issue with is not the Erickson hypnosis model (which I view as distinct from, if used in, NLP), but rather the complete system which believes in/uses representational systems and the b/a/g/e/l model. I really think it started to get crazy before that. Bandler's group in particular suffered towards the end when he became increasingly paranoid and vindictive (struggling with substance abuse). Grinder's branch has always been a little ... New Age fluffy, inconsistant and "sounds right" pseudoscience orientated to me. However, I will agree that NLP has become "worse" particularly in the UK where all trademark and patent rights were dissolved. The U.S. and Canada operate under the fair use agreement between Bandler and Grinder (hence why many North American materials still carry trademarks), but unfortuantely this leads to the "ten thousand lineages" problem seen for example in a lot of North American marital arts. That is Bandler, Grinder and anyone their orgs trained are seen as "legitimate" NLP "lineages". The problem being that you have a large body of "schools" which are seen as legit by teaching lineage, but go back to someone with incomplete training. meow

ArtCatDom -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/6/2006 6:13:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OneX2 I looked back and you are correct she did not post the link as I believe she said she would. My apologies to you. I was wrong there. In a few posts back I think we have settled this, agreeing, and disagreeing. I will say that I don't agree with any one doing NLP telling someone that they don't need their Doctor any more. In fact, I'm sure seeing those you have loved hurt was difficult, and made you educate yourself to the distinctions of Peer review and journals. I can see from your form and structure of your writing you must make a great writer of political and ad copy material. I look forward to reading more of what you have to share. I am sure both myself and Morgan can plainly say we are ignorant of scientology. You made some very useful distinctions, even though the spreading falsehood on falsehood line was a bit dramatic. Joseph I must say that by acknowledging that NLP is not a legitimate replacement for proper medical care and counseling, you set yourself apart from the vast majority of NLP practitioners. "Swishes" are one of the things about NLP I take most extreme issue with. The emphesis on quick fixes for phobias and compulsions by many NLP practitioners and materials is also greatly disturbing (and obviously related to using a swish). (For those who don't know, swishes are a quick fix/hot patch means to address a psychological issue in NLP. Usually they are used to address bad habits, but are also used for "quirks" like phobias, compulsions, anxieties, etc.) Yes, it was the personal harm inflicted that caused me to read an obscene amount on the subject. Nothing like making something personal to drive someone to read far too much on a subject who's already inclined towards heavy research and constant reading. I'd admit some of my language was a bit over the top on that. However, I still feel that it's inappropriate to try and defend NLP by defaming Scientology if one doesn't have the knowledge necessary to lay such claims. But, here are a few links about Scientology to help you get started leanring more about it, if you're interested. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology Wikipedia is sometimes off because of open editing, but it's about as accurate as Brittanica and just has more references and more material. The Scientology article is fairly spot on. http://www.whatisscientology.org/ A pro-site by the church so you can have their side of the story. http://www.scientologywatch.org/postnuke/index.php An anti-site so you can have the critics' side of the story. One neutral, one pro, one opposed. That should be a good overall start to understand Scientology. meow

OneX2 -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/6/2006 6:14:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom quote: ORIGINAL: OneX2 I have to say that was written very well. I cannot argue with what you just said about the effectiveness of using NLP and hypnosis together. That is how is you should be learning it. That is how I know it, and I haven't been a part of a program that didn't have those two elements together. So you maybe completely correct on NLP effectiveness with simple linguistic turn arounds. I bring up the court cases again because after the court decisions were made no one had to check and get the ok from the creators of the discipline to use the name and start one of their own. That is when it started to really get whacky and watered down in my opinion. Looking at it like this, I will say you have convinced me that there is a separation in this field. Have you studied hypnosis? I would welcome your opinion in this way to what ever I have posted. Ah, I am beginning to think that we are referencing two differant bodies of knowledge as NLP. Correct me if I am wrong but what you practice is Erickson hypnosis using the Milton Model and making some use of the metamodel as a "roadmap". Am I incorrect in that guess? The NLP I take issue with is not the Erickson hypnosis model (which I view as distinct from, if used in, NLP), but rather the complete system which believes in/uses representational systems and the b/a/g/e/l model. I really think it started to get crazy before that. Bandler's group in particular suffered towards the end when he became increasingly paranoid and vindictive (struggling with substance abuse). Grinder's branch has always been a little ... New Age fluffy, inconsistant and "sounds right" pseudoscience orientated to me. However, I will agree that NLP has become "worse" particularly in the UK where all trademark and patent rights were dissolved. The U.S. and Canada operate under the fair use agreement between Bandler and Grinder (hence why many North American materials still carry trademarks), but unfortuantely this leads to the "ten thousand lineages" problem seen for example in a lot of North American marital arts. That is Bandler, Grinder and anyone their orgs trained are seen as "legitimate" NLP "lineages". The problem being that you have a large body of "schools" which are seen as legit by teaching lineage, but go back to someone with incomplete training. meow In this post I agree with this 100%. To find some one here that has your breadth of knowledge along some of these skill lines is a rare treat. I totally agree about the whole UK mixing pot. That is the very reason I wanted to learn from the creators. I take full responsibility of the fact that I was simplifying so much to keep the post open for every one, that I just assumed we were talking about the same thing. When Bandler teaches anything he mixes from all the models and I prefer that. Are you into martial arts as well? This is a lesson to Self, and a basic one that I should have known. Ensure both parties are talking about the same thing and using the same defining properties. You have earned my respect and I look forward to seeing anything you want to post and discuss. Joseph

OneX2 -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/6/2006 6:18:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom quote: ORIGINAL: MsIncognito quote: ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom However, I never claimed to be out to save anyone. I have a strong antipathy towards NLP and other such pseudoscience. It is my own strong feelings about the matter that drive my postings, not some misplaced sense of chivalry. Call it a pet peeve. I just cannot tolerate people masquerading bunk as legitimate science. Ironically enough though, I'm far from being a secular humanist skeptic. Actually, I realize where you're coming from and you've been a vocal, yet reasonable and logical participant in this thread. I can respect the way you've put your ideas forth here. My post was a combination of thoughts on how several other posters have reacted to this thread, not you specifically. Being me, I was too lazy to reply to all of them individually and just posted a bulk message which addressed all the different issues that were floating around in my head at the time. Not all of them were meant to be directed at you specifically. However, I still believe there are many who do dress up their intolerance as concern for the community or a desire to save people from themselves. I'm big on personal responsibility (which I know is a novel concept in this community) and I believe everyone is responsible for their decisions. I've been burned in the past just like many others have been but I realize I played a role in that by choosing to put myself in certain situations. That doesn't negate the other person's responsibility for taking advantage but it does keep me from pretending to be a hapless little waif who is at the mercy of every snake oil salesman who blows through town. Personal responsibility is a good virtue, I'd utterly agree. While some of my worst experiences have been inflicted upon me (being shot for example), my place in that situation was a result of my own choices (joing the military). I do agree that large numbers of people will try to blame EVERYTHING on someone else and refuse to take up any of their own responsibility for their situation. I still cynically believe most people couldn't tell a lump of crap if it was smeared on their face. However, I will utterly agree that much of the time, people just need to open their eyes or rub together a few brain cells. meow When you put it in perspective like this I see an opportunity to really get an opinion from a unique perspective. I thank you for volunteering this. I will enjoy getting to know you. You should feel free to steal this line. I believe in Karma, sometimes I help. Joseph

OneX2 -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/6/2006 6:21:54 PM)
Those were links I am digging into! Joseph

youQadesh -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery (4/6/2006 7:15:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ArtCatDom Yes, it was the personal harm inflicted that caused me to read an obscene amount on the subject. Nothing like making something personal to drive someone to read far too much on a subject who's already inclined towards heavy research and constant reading. meow Its great to see you two come to a bit of an understanding. btw I admire the comprehensive approach you used towards this NLP subject. You admit to using over the top language but honestly, it is definitely toned down as far as standard rhetoric in a forum like this goes. To me you seem level headed, and flexible. I am not like you as far as comprehensive, scientific approach goes. I glanced at the titles of the research article from the database and assumed they were mostly supporting NLP. I was going to go back to them and read them, and then cite my victorious findings, but when I read a few of them they were either theoretical with no real scientific back bone, or they were small scientific studies that no more than showed NLP had no effect. I was surprised because reading up on NLP, and learning from Joe, I have found the system effective. The lessons about sub modalities helped me become more aware of the substance of my thoughts, how I sense the world, and think (If that makes any sense). In knowing more about how I think I have been able to be more proactive in efforts towards self improvement. What gives?

youQadesh -> RE: The Left Hand of Slvery-experience of Hypnotic BDSM (4/7/2006 1:15:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OneX2 I have been asked "What's so different about being under hypnosis in a bondage scene?" I am going to relate this to a very vanilla activity video gaming. Hypnosis and gaming tends to be regarded as a harmless diversion at best, a vile corruptor of youth at worst. Both can certainly be used that way. But the usual critiques fail to recognize its potential for experiential learning. Unlike education acquired through textbooks, lectures, and classroom instruction, what takes place in a hypnotic experience is very much like a game where we learn implicitly as well as explicitly. It's we call accidental learning. It's learning to be - a natural byproduct of adjusting to a new culture - as opposed to learning about. Where traditional learning is based on the execution of carefully graded challenges, accidental learning relies on failure, and generalizing what you do well and carrying a skill over to help you in other areas. So even if the chance of failure is high in a game, the cost is low and the lessons learned are immediate. You are practicing success and experience an adventure. When people begin a quest, whether in a game or hypnotically they often need to attempt particularly difficult challenges repeatedly until they find they've learned a blend of skills, talents, and actions that allows them to succeed. This process brings about a profound shift in how they perceive and react to the world around them. They become more flexible in their thinking and more sensitive to social cues. The fact that they don't think of this experience as fixed training is crucial. Once the experience is explicitly educational, it becomes about developing compartmentalized skills and loses its power to permeate the persons behavior patterns, thoughts, and worldview. I look forward to your thoughts, and thank you for allowing me to post your quesion. Joseph Hey darlin, I like the answer to the question though I don't see how it relates to the question entirely. You explained how learning is different under hypnosis than learning through other ways, and you explained clearly, but how does this realate to bondage scenes? Love ya, -M

OneX2 -> The Left Hand of Slvery-Intense Descriptors (4/7/2006 1:19:42 PM)
Intense Descriptors It is ironic to see the words how we describe ourselves and what these experiences mean to us in this life style when you actually look at the what they originally meant, and can mean. I have just done a few here. , but I wonder if any one reading this found one of these or another that really surprised the. Main Entry: Bondage Part of Speech: noun Definition: slavery Synonyms: chains, enslavement, helotry, peonage, serfage, serfdom, servility, servitude, subjection, subjugation, thrall, thralldom, villenage Antonyms: emancipation, freedom, independence, liberty Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.1.1) Main Entry: captivity Part of Speech: noun Definition: detention Synonyms: Bondage, committal, confinement, constraint, custody, durance, duress, enslavement, enthrallment, entombment, impoundment, imprisonment, incarceration, internment, jail, limbo, restraint, serfdom, servitude, slavery, subjection, thralldom, vassalage Antonyms: emancipation, freedom, liberty Main Entry: restraint Part of Speech: noun 2 Definition: limitation Synonyms: abridgment, arrest, ban, bar, barrier, Bondage, bridle, captivity, chains, check, command, confinement, constraint, cramp, curb, decrease, deprivation, detention, determent, deterrence, embargo, fetters, hindrance, impediment, imprisonment, instruction, interdict, juice, limit, manacles, obstacle, obstruction, order, pinions, prohibition, reduction, rein, repression, restriction, rope, stop, stoppage, straitjacket, string, taboo, violence, weight Antonyms: excess, indulgence Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.1.1) Main Entry: servitude Part of Speech: noun Definition: slavery Synonyms: Bondage, bonds, chains, confinement, enslavement, obedience, peonage, serfdom, serfhood, subjection, subjugation, thrall, thralldom, vassalage, yoke Antonyms: freedom, liberty Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.1.1) Maybe now more of you will look for peons as you enjoy subjugating your vassalage for fun and more! Joseph

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