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RE: Lone senator blocks unemployment benefit extensions - 2/27/2010 3:51:31 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lobodomslavery

Such a typical attitude hammer those who are blameless for the current crisis. Let the ones who messed it up for us all walk free of their responsibility. What a shitty world it is
Kevin



I'm not sure where your pronouns point. Who's blameless? Who messed up?

(in reply to lobodomslavery)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Lone senator blocks unemployment benefit extensions - 2/27/2010 3:52:34 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Almost. Every. Word.

And every word in the Constitution.


Perhaps you might enlighten us with a few excerpts from the "Federalist Papers" that you think might substantiate your position.
If you don't happen to have a copy handy please avail yourself of this link.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/fed.asp

As for the Constitution it pretty clearly says that the feds can make laws. It also says that they can tax us. Now if that is not central control in bold letters then what pray tell is?

I suppose the 16th Amendment was not necessary?

The (sole) purpose of the Constitution is to limit the ability of the feds to make laws....
You might look at the recent SCOTUS free speech decision.......

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Lone senator blocks unemployment benefit extensions - 2/27/2010 3:59:23 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

An irrelevance from the irrelevant.
Which will probably be my last comment to you, on the theory that you are a stray cat and that if I dont feed you you'll go away.



This must be your clever way of saying that you have never read the "Federalist Papers" and are only on passing acquaintance with the Constitution.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Lone senator blocks unemployment benefit extensions - 2/27/2010 4:09:56 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Almost. Every. Word.

And every word in the Constitution.


Perhaps you might enlighten us with a few excerpts from the "Federalist Papers" that you think might substantiate your position.
If you don't happen to have a copy handy please avail yourself of this link.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/fed.asp

As for the Constitution it pretty clearly says that the feds can make laws. It also says that they can tax us. Now if that is not central control in bold letters then what pray tell is?

I seem to remember some wording in there about limiting what those laws were able to do... But hell it's an old document, and much of it must be outdated, as we are living in the age of technology.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Lone senator blocks unemployment benefit extensions - 2/27/2010 4:12:45 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

The (sole) purpose of the Constitution is to limit the ability of the feds to make laws....


You seem to have very little understanding of the history of the U.S. Let me see if I can bring you up to speed.
First we had the Articles of Confederation which bound the colonies together while fighting the Revolutionary War.
Next we wrote the Constitution BECAUSE the Articles of Confederation did not give the central government any significant power over the states. For example the power to compel the states to render their taxes to the central government so it could pay its expenses from the war.
Then Hamilton,Jay and Madison set about a letter writting campagn to get the states to ratify the new constitution. These letters are called the "Federalist Papers".
So you see neither document is in anyway designed to limit the powers of the federal government. The Constitution is the document that specifically states what the powers of the federal government are. It is not about limiting it is about the begining of a government and that government saying what it's powers are.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Lone senator blocks unemployment benefit extensions - 2/27/2010 4:14:50 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Of course and those first 10 thingies must just be like the commandments and instructionary not obligatory...

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Lone senator blocks unemployment benefit extensions - 2/27/2010 4:26:54 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Of course and those first 10 thingies must just be like the commandments and instructionary not obligatory...


What in the fuck are you on about?
Have you no fucking knowledge about the history of your own country?
The trade off between the Federalist and the Anti Federalist was that they would sign on to the Constitution ...if and only if ...there would follow immediately on ratification the first order of business would be a bill of rights aimed specifically at the powers retained by the people.
I am unclear as to what your question is.
This started out with how the Federalist Papers called for limits on the power of the federal government.
Then it was the Constitution that put limits on the feds but we both know it is the bill of rights that applies those limits to the constitution. Now if you want to pick fly shit out of the pepper about which is part of what...clearly the constitution came first and the bill of rights (which is part of the constitution) is what is used to modify that document.
Again ...what is your point?

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Lone senator blocks unemployment benefit extensions - 2/27/2010 4:41:00 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

Of course and those first 10 thingies must just be like the commandments and instructionary not obligatory...


What in the fuck are you on about?
Have you no fucking knowledge about the history of your own country?
The trade off between the Federalist and the Anti Federalist was that they would sign on to the Constitution ...if and only if ...there would follow immediately on ratification the first order of business would be a bill of rights aimed specifically at the powers retained by the people.
I am unclear as to what your question is.
This started out with how the Federalist Papers called for limits on the power of the federal government.
Then it was the Constitution that put limits on the feds but we both know it is the bill of rights that applies those limits to the constitution. Now if you want to pick fly shit out of the pepper about which is part of what...clearly the constitution came first and the bill of rights (which is part of the constitution) is what is used to modify that document.
Again ...what is your point?


You suggested that the Constitution was designed to give power, and the contrary point was made that it was designed to limit powers of the centralized government. You disagreed with that point, or at least that is how I understood your post.

That being said, perhaps reading Federalist #32 might jar your memory about limiting the powers of the Fed. Again you jump to the conclussion that you are the only person that has read anything of this nation's history, and better yet you are the only one that truly understands it. I mean what the hell was Hamilton rattling on about. The powers were not only to be retained by the people by each and every sovereign state. At best the Constitution was a contract of consolidation, not a creating of a centralized stranglehold on power.

Oh and just so this post fits the topic at hand and even relates to your sidetrack...

quote:


Repeal that [welfare] law, and you will soon see a change in their manners. ... Six days shalt thou labor, though one of the old commandments long treated as out of date, will again be looked upon as a respectable precept; industry will increase, and with it plenty among the lower people; their circumstances will mend, and more will be done for their happiness by inuring them to provide for themselves, than could be done by dividing all your estates among them. --Benjamin Franklin



The unedjumicated,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Lone senator blocks unemployment benefit extensions - 2/27/2010 5:14:11 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

You suggested that the Constitution was designed to give power, and the contrary point was made that it was designed to limit powers of the centralized government. You disagreed with that point, or at least that is how I understood your post.

You have it backwards. The statement was made that the Federalist papers and the constitution were documents that in their entirety were designed to limit the power of the fed.
I disagreed and gave my reasoning.



That being said, perhaps reading Federalist #32 might jar your memory about limiting the powers of the Fed.

Federalist #32 does no such thing. All of the essays in the Federalist Papers are the authors urging the readers to accept the constitution. All they do is explane the Constitution. The Federalist Papers do not call on the framers of the Constitution to do anything to the document to limit the power of the central government.
If you have read the Federalist Papers why is it that this simple fact escapes you?


Again you jump to the conclussion that you are the only person that has read anything of this nation's history, and better yet you are the only one that truly understands it.

When you or anyone else makes statements about the history of my country that are false I just feel compelled to disabuse them of their ignorance


I mean what the hell was Hamilton rattling on about. The powers were not only to be retained by the people by each and every sovereign state.

He was rattling on about what powers the fed had and what powers the states retained according to the new constitution


At best the Constitution was a contract of consolidation, not a creating of a centralized stranglehold on power.
It was because of that percieved strangle hold on power that the anti federalist forced the federalist to agree to the "Bill of Rights"

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Lone senator blocks unemployment benefit extensions - 2/27/2010 5:20:43 PM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2165
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckyman

Eat shit and die know it all..... your know it all attitude is typical of progressive shit  heads....stay where you are puke...you come down south and you will be 'gatorbait'



Ahh, I thought I recognized you- you played that little boy in Deliverance, playing the banjo, didn't you?






Attachment (1)

(in reply to cuckyman)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Lone senator blocks unemployment benefit extensions - 2/27/2010 5:24:07 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Almost. Every. Word.

And every word in the Constitution.

What bullshit.

A quick history lesson, the US Constitution sets up, quite intentionally, a strong federal government. This was because of the disastrous confederation that was the first government system we tried.

The Federalist Papers explained in detail the reasoning behind virtually every detail of the Constitution were only published to make the case for the strong central government that many of the citizens were wary of. Hamilton, Madison and Jay succeeded and enough people were convinced that the US Constitution was ratified.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Lone senator blocks unemployment benefit extensions - 2/27/2010 5:38:35 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

You suggested that the Constitution was designed to give power, and the contrary point was made that it was designed to limit powers of the centralized government. You disagreed with that point, or at least that is how I understood your post.

You have it backwards. The statement was made that the Federalist papers and the constitution were documents that in their entirety were designed to limit the power of the fed.
I disagreed and gave my reasoning.



That being said, perhaps reading Federalist #32 might jar your memory about limiting the powers of the Fed.

Federalist #32 does no such thing. All of the essays in the Federalist Papers are the authors urging the readers to accept the constitution. All they do is explane the Constitution. The Federalist Papers do not call on the framers of the Constitution to do anything to the document to limit the power of the central government.
If you have read the Federalist Papers why is it that this simple fact escapes you?


Again you jump to the conclussion that you are the only person that has read anything of this nation's history, and better yet you are the only one that truly understands it.

When you or anyone else makes statements about the history of my country that are false I just feel compelled to disabuse them of their ignorance


I mean what the hell was Hamilton rattling on about. The powers were not only to be retained by the people by each and every sovereign state.

He was rattling on about what powers the fed had and what powers the states retained according to the new constitution


At best the Constitution was a contract of consolidation, not a creating of a centralized stranglehold on power.
It was because of that percieved strangle hold on power that the anti federalist forced the federalist to agree to the "Bill of Rights"


Now you are playing with semantics. You surely claimed that the Constitution did not limit the powers of the central government, but gave power to them. I suggest that the Constitution set limits on what laws that the Federal government could enact via proxy for the states. Even beyond the bill of rights this is evident. This position is further evident by the writings of Madison, Hamilton, Adams etc.. in the federalist papers. With language very much similar to that which appears in the Constitution.

"The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. ~ Madison"

We are not in disagreement about the purpose of the Federalist papers being to persuade and communicate that which would or should be in the final creating of a union.

As an example, did you know that when the Constitution was ratified that states like Mass had an official state religion, recognized in their state constitution? Or that the biggest congregation in the nation met in the capitol building? Yet today, the understanding of the Constitution is that there needs to be a seperation of church and state. Would you now argue that our current understanding is the correct reading? And if so, why was Mass not forced to change such at that time? I suggest that is because the original understanding was to limit the FEDERAL government from instituting a federal religion which would trample on the rights of each state and individual from practicing (or not) according to their choice. An example of the limits placed on the Fed.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Lone senator blocks unemployment benefit extensions - 2/27/2010 5:42:53 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline 		Oops forgot to include a little passage from Federalist #32... Hamilton writes:

But as the plan of the convention aims only at a partial union or consolidation, the State governments would clearly retain all the rights of sovereignty which they before had, and which were not, by that act, EXCLUSIVELY delegated to the United States

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Lone senator blocks unemployment benefit extensions - 2/27/2010 5:51:18 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Any basic H.S civics course could settle this argument....the Constitution enumerates the powers given to the Federal Gov't,the Bill of Rights were a brake on those powers...the supposed final word was the statement that the powers enumerated in the Constitution,and only those powers were granted to the Fed....all other powers remianed in the hands of the states.....or by extension the people!

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Lone senator blocks unemployment benefit extensions - 2/27/2010 5:52:54 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		In theory really quite simple....in practice and interpretation quite complicated!

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Lone senator blocks unemployment benefit extensions - 2/27/2010 5:58:20 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

In theory really quite simple....in practice and interpretation quite complicated!

The funny part is that such arguments about future interpretation and implications were discussed in the Federalist papers. I am amazed at the genius of the men and their foresight (perhaps it was because they studied history as well).

I think it was Madison that said something about there not always being enlightened men at the helm.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Lone senator blocks unemployment benefit extensions - 2/27/2010 6:01:24 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Ahhh,but as you stated there was actual genius at work...genius present in the decision to make it a "living" document...rather than a dead and rigid set of rules and regulations.....Yes Thadius true fucking genius!

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Lone senator blocks unemployment benefit extensions - 2/27/2010 6:12:18 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		You are insane so do me a favor and drop dead! I think the Democrats and the Republican are both turds so I would vote for the tea party and the coffee party. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckyman

This numbnuts progressive turd has no political savy.... the supposed 'benefits' he refers to are NOT funded by the feds and dumped on the states to deal with...and guess what...the states are BROKE!  Bunning is doing the right thing in telling this socialist congress "TOUGH SHIT".... the benefits were in the 'original' bill, but Harry Reid took them out to not run up more of a deficit for the Obamapukes now record score.....  and all this while yelling 'OBSTRUCTION'.... the democrats (see communist) are doing to all to permiantly wreck the economy so socialism can fill the vaccum and it is NOT GOING TO FLY.....  his so called health care bill will NOT pass by reconciliation or ANY other way....they DON'T HAVE THE FUCKING VOTES!!!!!  ...... and the democrats know that to vote for this monstrocity will be sure political death for any yes vote that adds to the massive debt run up by this most lame administration in the history of the US..... the dems are going to insure one thing and ONE thing only....and that they will be SWEPT FROM POWER come November!!!! the polls are momumental out in the real country...... and numbnuts like this big mouthed progressive idiot will be sitting in the rubble and wonder who dropped the political bomb on their lame asses..... run your soicalist mouth all you wish turd, but come November you are going to witness a FUCKING TIDAL WAVE of angry voters that are going to throw your turds out on the fucking street!  That much is certain!!!!  laughing my ass off reading the stupid progressive blogs..... they have NOT got a fucking clue......but they will get it.....and SOON......fuck off lightweight.!!!

(in reply to cuckyman)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Lone senator blocks unemployment benefit extensions - 2/27/2010 6:14:46 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		The words for you are whack job. I think you are the one who has been eating the shit -it would explain a lot.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cuckyman

Eat shit and die know it all..... your know it all attitude is typical of progressive shit  heads....stay where you are puke...you come down south and you will be 'gatorbait'

(in reply to cuckyman)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Lone senator blocks unemployment benefit extensions - 2/27/2010 6:18:15 PM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Ahhh,but as you stated there was actual genius at work...genius present in the decision to make it a "living" document...rather than a dead and rigid set of rules and regulations.....Yes Thadius true fucking genius!

The only part of it that I see as living is the ability to ammend it, at least in my opinion. They had seen and understood that the nature of mankind had a particular fondness for power, and that keeping that power from a centralized body was in the best interest of the people.

The courts have been on a continuous path of centralizing more and more of the power in this country by reading the Constitution as a "living" document. My earlier example being one such way in which they have done so.


Oh one more quote for thomson....
quote:


Constitutions of civil government are not to be framed upon a calculation of existing exigencies, but upon a combination of these with the probable exigencies of ages, according to the natural and tried course of human affairs. Nothing, therefore, can be more fallacious than to infer the extent of any power, proper to be lodged in the national government, from an estimate of its immediate necessities.
~Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 34, January 4, 1788


_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 120
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