RE: 33 states get more Fed tax $ than they pay in. (Full Version)

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luckydawg -> RE: 33 states get more Fed tax $ than they pay in. (3/6/2010 2:15:43 PM)

lol


What a pathetic person to have so much hate in political chat.
I guess it is because he can't actually debate with facts or logic.

Just a troll





mnottertail -> RE: 33 states get more Fed tax $ than they pay in. (3/6/2010 2:21:17 PM)

fact, the government pays for federal land. fact the government paid for alaska to russia.
fact, the federal taxe monies spent in alaska are greater than those recieved.

fact, you are a fucking coward, a liar, and pretend like you are taking the high road, and you are right about something. you are neither.




luckydawg -> RE: 33 states get more Fed tax $ than they pay in. (3/6/2010 2:26:09 PM)

so you agree with me that the feds need to pay for thier own land.


Why all the anger? because you got shown to be a fool on the other thread?

And I still don't understand how the hundreds of millions of dollars spent on HAARP counts as Alaska recieving tax money.




AnimusRex -> RE: 33 states get more Fed tax $ than they pay in. (3/6/2010 5:24:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg
so you agree with me that the feds need to pay for thier own land.


OK, since we are in silly territory here- who exactly should the feds pay for this land?

the Souix? Blackfoot? Cherokee? Algonquin? Comanche? Ute?

Or should we agree that the federal government already paid Napolean Bonaparte for the Louisiana Purchase, and the Czar of Russia for Alaska?

Or should we pay Spain for the Southwest? Or the Mexican government? Or France, who ruled Mexico for a time?




juliaoceania -> RE: 33 states get more Fed tax $ than they pay in. (3/6/2010 6:08:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg
so you agree with me that the feds need to pay for thier own land.


OK, since we are in silly territory here- who exactly should the feds pay for this land?

the Souix? Blackfoot? Cherokee? Algonquin? Comanche? Ute?

Or should we agree that the federal government already paid Napolean Bonaparte for the Louisiana Purchase, and the Czar of Russia for Alaska?

Or should we pay Spain for the Southwest? Or the Mexican government? Or France, who ruled Mexico for a time?


I do not think he understands this concept, the government already owned the land, they let some people homestead on it, and they held the rest in trust...

What is really funny in a strange sorta way is that Alaska citizens already profit in a communistic sort of way from the natural resources located there...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund

quote:

The Alaska Permanent Fund is a constitutionally established permanent fund, managed by a semi-independent corporation, established by Alaska in 1976, primarily by the efforts of then Governor Jay Hammond. Shortly after the oil from Alaska’s North Slope began flowing to market through the Trans-Alaska Pipeline System, the Permanent Fund was created by an amendment to the Alaska Constitution to be an investment for at least 25% of proceeds from some mineral (such as oil and gas) sales or royalties. The Fund does not include either property taxes on oil company property nor income tax from oil corporations, so the minimum 25% deposit is closer to 11% if those sources were also considered. The Alaska Permanent Fund sets aside a certain share of oil revenues to continue benefiting current and all future generations of Alaskans. Many citizens[who?] also believed that the legislature too quickly and too inefficiently spent the $900 million bonus the state got in 1969 after leasing out the oil fields. This belief spurred a desire to put some oil revenues out of direct political control. The Alaska Permanent Fund Corporation manages the assets of both the Permanent Fund and other state investments, but spending Fund income is up to the Legislature. The Corporation is to manage for maximum prudent return, and not—as some Alaskans at first wanted—as a development bank for in-state projects. The Fund grew from an initial investment of $734,000 in 1977 to approximately $28 billion as of March 2008. Some growth was due to good management, some to inflationary re-investment, and some via legislative decisions to deposit extra income during boom years. Each year, the fund's realized earnings are split between inflation-proofing, operating expenses, and the annual Permanent Fund Dividend.


So basically the citizens of Alaska are bent out of shape over ANWAR because they think they have the right to rape the land for their own personal gain and split it up amongst all of them... isn't that a fairly communistic concept?




luckydawg -> RE: 33 states get more Fed tax $ than they pay in. (3/7/2010 3:48:07 AM)

Good lord Animus. I know you are smart enough to follow the thread.

Pay as in pay to manage the federal lands and millitary reservations, the Federal spending the thread is about.


Though much of the Federal spending julia, MM, ect are so upset about is direct payments to Tribes or treaty maintence.

Every Native in Alaska gets free Medical, Dental,and Optical care for free, per treaty.




juliaoceania -> RE: 33 states get more Fed tax $ than they pay in. (3/7/2010 5:32:06 AM)

I notice you never addressed the Alaskan citizens profiting from the sale of oil... so they not only soak us for the price of running their stuff, but they are profiting from a commonly held resource. THIS is why they want the feds out, so they can take all the oil out of the ground, plunder the land, and make it their personal cash cow.




thompsonx -> RE: 33 states get more Fed tax $ than they pay in. (3/7/2010 6:55:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Or those two, come to that...


I assure you that it is unilateral.




thompsonx -> RE: 33 states get more Fed tax $ than they pay in. (3/7/2010 7:00:34 AM)

quote:

MM, as I pointed out before. If Alaska got to use the lands held by the Feds, they would get way more money. ANWR for example.


By what mechanism would you go about transfering BLM land to Alaska?




thompsonx -> RE: 33 states get more Fed tax $ than they pay in. (3/7/2010 7:02:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

lol


What a pathetic person to have so much hate in political chat.
I guess it is because he can't actually debate with facts or logic.

Just a troll

Is it your position that you never call people names in a hateful way on these boards?







thompsonx -> RE: 33 states get more Fed tax $ than they pay in. (3/7/2010 7:07:07 AM)

quote:

So basically the citizens of Alaska are bent out of shape over ANWAR because they think they have the right to rape the land for their own personal gain and split it up amongst all of them... isn't that a fairly communistic concept?


Julia:
You seem to have forgotten to whom you are speaking.
It is not the people of Alaska who are bent out of shape.
It is Lucky speaking "ex cathedra'.




juliaoceania -> RE: 33 states get more Fed tax $ than they pay in. (3/7/2010 7:12:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

So basically the citizens of Alaska are bent out of shape over ANWAR because they think they have the right to rape the land for their own personal gain and split it up amongst all of them... isn't that a fairly communistic concept?


Julia:
You seem to have forgotten to whom you are speaking.
It is not the people of Alaska who are bent out of shape.
It is Lucky speaking "ex cathedra'.



There is a large contingent of Alaskans that do not see themselves as a part of the US because of their isolation... and it is common for Alaskans to support opening up ANWAR because they have an economic incentive to do so. If they felt they had an economic incentive to keep it pristine, they would do that... Many Alaskans did not want National Parks in their state, at least until the tourism dollars from them came in.. but because ANWAR is so secluded and cannot be profited from they want to exploit it in other ways.. how many other states sell a resource and then cut a check to their citizens for that lease?




thompsonx -> RE: 33 states get more Fed tax $ than they pay in. (3/7/2010 8:47:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

So basically the citizens of Alaska are bent out of shape over ANWAR because they think they have the right to rape the land for their own personal gain and split it up amongst all of them... isn't that a fairly communistic concept?


Julia:
You seem to have forgotten to whom you are speaking.
It is not the people of Alaska who are bent out of shape.
It is Lucky speaking "ex cathedra'.



There is a large contingent of Alaskans that do not see themselves as a part of the US because of their isolation... and it is common for Alaskans to support opening up ANWAR because they have an economic incentive to do so.

I would be curious as to just how large and what the composition is of this "large contengent of Alaskans"


If they felt they had an economic incentive to keep it pristine, they would do that... Many Alaskans did not want National Parks in their state, at least until the tourism dollars from them came in.. but because ANWAR is so secluded and cannot be profited from they want to exploit it in other ways.. how many other states sell a resource and then cut a check to their citizens for that lease?






Musicmystery -> RE: 33 states get more Fed tax $ than they pay in. (3/7/2010 8:54:31 AM)

quote:

Animus. I know you are smart enough to follow the thread.


quote:

the Federal spending julia, MM, ect are so upset about


So are you.

As I've explained a few times already, the spending isn't the issue.

The point is people in states benefiting from it complaining and voting against what's helping their states.

It's ironic, and smacks of ignorance of the true picture.




juliaoceania -> RE: 33 states get more Fed tax $ than they pay in. (3/7/2010 9:10:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Animus. I know you are smart enough to follow the thread.


quote:

the Federal spending julia, MM, ect are so upset about


So are you.

As I've explained a few times already, the spending isn't the issue.

The point is people in states benefiting from it complaining and voting against what's helping their states.

It's ironic, and smacks of ignorance of the true picture.


I think that it is intentional ignorance because to deal with the concept that Red States depend on Blue States must be galling... As if fed dollars spent on parks, military, etc, do not provide extra income to those states that harbor them... all things being equal, the Blue States have more going for them economically. They are coastal and urban, which leads to the people that live in them to have a better picture of how "government" works in their daily life and how we are all connected.... hence support of services such as trash removal, public transportation, policing... etc. We are more likely to have loved ones that work for government, and government jobs (such as military) cause a spending ripple effect on the communities that house them..

For example, the university I attend is supported by California tax dollars, and for every dollar spent four dollars are generated... now that is a pretty good investment! From what I have read about political stances and geography there is a direct correlation to benefiting directly from government to supporting it. Now people who live in rural red states, they are not as likely to see the direct benefit of government services, although if they lost the federal government spending in their state, it would be a rude awakening for them




AnimusRex -> RE: 33 states get more Fed tax $ than they pay in. (3/7/2010 12:38:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg
Good lord Animus. I know you are smart enough to follow the thread.


Aww, you say the sweetest things.

Actually, this thread only points out the silliness of how our national dialogue; as in, we frame the argument in terms of "whats in it for me" and treat as a bizarre concept, that it could be any other way.

How can you do any form of accounting, to figure out who owes what to whom? How do we figure out how to repay the debt to Washington for seizing the territories from the Natives who lived there? How do we calculate who should pay whom to compensate for the highways that allow the Alaskan oil fields to be developed? Or the electrical grid that allows Nevada to exist?

When people proudly stand and say they don't owe anything to Washington, it is a lie- they stand on land that the Federal government seized, with highways that taxpayers financed, with electrical grids publicly built, in states filled with engineers, doctors, and managers taught with public schooling, and the entire system protected by Federal Armies.

We- collectively we the voters- reward politicians who bring in pork by any means possible, and punish those who don't. So even though we like it when Sarah Palin stands and postures as a Real Merkin Rugged Individualist, who Don't Need Nuthin' From Them Damn Liburls, in reality even Alaskans know they are getting truckloads of welfare from Washington.

The idea that we should, collectively pitch in and transfer money from rich states to poor states, or states that have a surplus to states that have a deficit, is considered heresy, something Not Spoken In Polite Society.

Yet its exactly what is done, by both parties, and every political movement. Its just considered embarrassingly awkward to say it honestly.

Or worse, since we refuse to acknowledge the idea of a social obligation, a duty to help the less fortunate, the process becomes perverted, where the money gets doled out not according to who needs it, but who has the strongest lobby. We- collectively- reward cynicism and cheating, we punish honesty and candor, we reward selfishness and greed, and punish Christian charity and civic duty.

Why can't we stand up and say out loud, boldly and unapologeticaly, that we have a civic duty to help those who are less fortunate; that those who have succeeded and prospered, that a society stratified into haves and have-nots is wrong, and un-American, that we are all better off when we act as one group, one tribe, one family, instead of squabbling dogs fighting over scraps?

We celebrate our soldiers, lauding them as self-sacrificing heroes; Yet it kind of rings hollow and phony, when we celebrate self-interest as the highest good, when we smirk at those who pay their fair taxes as chumps and those who game the system to pay nothing as clever and admirable.

What is needed is a movement that says Government is Good, where we see paying a fair tax is a noble and patriotic form of civic duty, like serving on jury duty.




juliaoceania -> RE: 33 states get more Fed tax $ than they pay in. (3/7/2010 12:50:12 PM)

Yay!!!!!!

I agree AnimusRex...

We are all connected, but at the same time it is ironic that those who hate Big Government the most are the ones that benefit from having one...

And I suppose I get a little pleasure in pointing out the hypocrisy of it.




Musicmystery -> RE: 33 states get more Fed tax $ than they pay in. (3/7/2010 12:52:40 PM)

Yeah, me too.

And they're the ones chanting "These guys don't love America."

Rhetoric over reason.






thompsonx -> RE: 33 states get more Fed tax $ than they pay in. (3/7/2010 2:08:33 PM)

quote:

Rhetoric over reason.


Sounds more like asinine bullshit over reason to me




NeedToUseYou -> RE: 33 states get more Fed tax $ than they pay in. (3/7/2010 2:56:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg
Good lord Animus. I know you are smart enough to follow the thread.


What is needed is a movement that says Government is Good, where we see paying a fair tax is a noble and patriotic form of civic duty, like serving on jury duty.


We already do pay a fair tax, and they spend it on the Military, and or Spy agency, you know that, you linked to the nifty chart, before.

I'm not sure what you are proposing in your post, is it that we should support the government in its present activities, if so, that seem folly, as that is what got us here to a large degree.

Anyway, the speech was moving, but don't see what exactly you are proposing, other than vagueness and wishes for the undefined to happen to get from point a to b.





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