RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids

RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (Full Version)

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Marc2b -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/25/2010 8:09:18 AM)
quote: I am simply pointing out the absurdity of your non position. It is absurd only if you insist on seeing the world in absolutist terms. You really can't see the difference between "love thy neighbor" and "kill the infidel" ? How 'bout I use your technique - that is, recast your posistion in absolutist terms and re-frame as a moral failing on your part: So, you're saying you support people having the right to incite violence against others? I guess you're okay then with the ku klux klan and neo-nazis inciting violence against Blacks, Jews and Catholics.

cadenas -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/25/2010 10:26:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: Ideology isn't truth but opinion. It has no place in schools. Facts have a place in schools. Precisely! But you still fail to see the problem. It’s easy to prove that 2+2=4 is a fact. It is easy to prove that the Union winning the Battle of Gettysburg is a fact. But ask the question why was the Civil War fought, and you get a whole bunch of different opinions that people insist are facts. Who’s version should prevail? Why should any one particular version prevail over another? Who says you only have to teach one? You can teach all those that are consistent with the facts. quote: quote: Wrong. When you require one school to accept all students, and allow another school to only cherrypick students with an IQ of at least 120, what do you think is going to happen? Even if one school is not getting the “cream of the crop,” that doesn’t mean they can’t successfully educate the students they do have. If they are unable to then why should we force people to attend it? How do you propose a school hobbled that way go about "successfully educating the students"? quote: quote: I haven't been tripping over Atheists in the streets, either. Your point being? It was your point, not mine. I think you implied something about homeless people being predominantly Southern Baptist. Not sure how you would know any homeless person's religion at all. quote: quote: Actually, you got that story backwards. The lesbian couple was Constitutionally protected BECAUSE they were at a public school. The school district TRIED to exclude just the lesbian couple from the prom. A court stepped in and decided that this would be discrimination and protected the lesbian couple. The school district had no choice but to treat all students equally (sadly, in their bigotry, they chose to cancel the prom for everybody - which was still a better outcome than canceling it just for the lesbian couple). The point is that the school in question is being run by assholes. Why should any parent be forced to send their child to a school run by assholes? The point is that the children were protected from these assholes, and that they wouldn't have been protected in a private school. By the way - a Federal Judge has now decided that even canceling the prom altogether was illegal. quote: quote: Private schools are far more egregious in that respect, especially given the fact that they are almost exclusively religious (97% in Ohio, for instance). A private school could have denied that couple an education by expelling them - and they routinely, and legally, expel students for the mere suspicion of being gay. Show me the "better, more accepting" private schools! Here's one. All it took was for a few people to get off their ass and exercise their freedom rather than whine about it. Ummmm. Enrollment: SEVEN. That school apparently didn't survive long; the last trace of it that I could find was from 2003, only six years after they started. Schools can't survive unless they are supported by a massive portion of the population. quote: Even if the religious private schools out number the secular one’s that is not the point. The point is, you should have the freedom to send your child to whatever school you prefer – or start one of your own! All I’m asking is that you respect the rights of others to do the same. My point is that you are TAKING AWAY the right. Starting your own? Yeah, the school for gay students you mentioned above is a great example how well that works. quote: Our Constitution guarantees religious freedom, and if the more extremist Christian schools are allowed, then it follows that Madrassas are also allowed as long as they teach the three Rs that you so insist on. Madrassas don't teach violence and aren't terrorist organizations any more than fundamentalist Christian schools do; they simply focus on the Koran or Bible. Whose version of the Koran or the Bible are they teaching? If it is a version that says “love your fellow man,” then that is okay. If it is a version that says, “go out and kill the infidel,” then they have crossed the line. Why is that so difficult to understand? Exactly my point. I'm just not sure why you still defend the right of parents to decide whether their children should be allowed to learn to "go out and kill the infidel".

Marc2b -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/25/2010 12:54:05 PM)
quote: Who says you only have to teach one? You can teach all those that are consistent with the facts. But will they? quote: How do you propose a school hobbled that way go about "successfully educating the students"? What makes them hobbled? Are they only getting kids with IQ below 50? Such kids would need specialized schools to begin with. Just because a kid isn’t a genius doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a normal intelligence and can’t be educated. quote: It was your point, not mine. I think you implied something about homeless people being predominantly Southern Baptist. Not sure how you would know any homeless person's religion at all. My point was that you don’t see masses of homeless Southern Baptists so that means, despite whatever educational shortcomings they may impose upon themselves, they are still managing make their way in society just fine. If they are okay with it, who the hell are we to tell them different? quote: The point is that the children were protected from these assholes, and that they wouldn't have been protected in a private school. The point is that people should have their options expanded, not restricted. If you don't like a particular private school's philosophy, then don't send your kid there. But if you don't like the public school's philosophy, why should people be forced to use it? quote: By the way - a Federal Judge has now decided that even canceling the prom altogether was illegal. Good for him. The government has no business engaging in unwarranted discrimination against it's citizens. quote: Ummmm. Enrollment: SEVEN. That school apparently didn't survive long; the last trace of it that I could find was from 2003, only six years after they started. Schools can't survive unless they are supported by a massive portion of the population. I noticed that you didn't mention anything about the liberal private schools. Okay, so maybe the gay private school did work that time around but that is not the point. The point is not how many there are or whether one succeeds while another doesn’t; the point is that people have the freedom to try rather than rely on the government which may or may not go their way. If you don't have other options, what do you do when the government fails? What if that judge had ruled the other way? How much longer would people have to wait for the appeals process? Why should they have to wait just because people like yourself may not approve of them? Why can't they have the frredom to do for themselves? The notion that school's can't survive unless they are supported by a massive portion of the population is silly. I know of schools in the Southern Tier of New York (both public and private) that have less than twenty students. quote: My point is that you are TAKING AWAY the right. Starting your own? Yeah, the school for gay students you mentioned above is a great example how well that works. What right am I taking away? I’m the one who is advocating for the freedom – the rights – of people to pursue their own happiness. You are the one who is paternalistically advocating that people be forced to do it your way or else. quote: Exactly my point. I'm just not sure why you still defend the right of parents to decide whether their children should be allowed to learn to "go out and kill the infidel". I don’t. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: one person’s rights end where the next person’s begins. It is not that fine a distinction. In fact it should be rather obvious. If Fred Phelps wants to sit at home and rant and rave to his followers (AKA his family) that God hates fags, that is his right. Whether we like what he is saying or not is irrelevant. However, when Freddy-boy goes to someone’s funeral to shout that the deceased if a fag and burning in Hell at the bereaved, then he is engaging in harassment. He is violating the rights of others. Same thing with Christian Fundamentalists. If they want to teach their children that God created the earth in six days, a guy named Noah built an ark, and to love thy neighbor – that is their right to do so. Again, our feelings on the rightness or wrongness of their beliefs are irrelevant. On the other hand, if they want to teach their children to go out and murder abortion doctors, then they are inciting violence against others – a clear violation of other’s rights. Once again I find myself baffled that the wing of politics that likes to shout "Power to the people!," balks at the notion of actually giving power to the people.

cadenas -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/26/2010 1:11:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: How do you propose a school hobbled that way go about "successfully educating the students"? What makes them hobbled? Are they only getting kids with IQ below 50? Such kids would need specialized schools to begin with. Just because a kid isn’t a genius doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a normal intelligence and can’t be educated. - It takes considerably more funding when the majority of the students is in the 80-110 range. Private schools can cherrypick the easy-to-educate students. - Having the "genius" in a mixed environment benefits the remaining students, too. By the way, this isn't limited to private schools. Charter schools, magnet schools etc. also have similar impact, as well as the highly localized school funding through property taxes. By the way, the point here isn't that "schools for geniuses are bad" but that the funding imbalance needs to be addressed and that comparing the educational success of such schools is comparing apples and oranges. quote: quote: It was your point, not mine. I think you implied something about homeless people being predominantly Southern Baptist. Not sure how you would know any homeless person's religion at all. My point was that you don’t see masses of homeless Southern Baptists so that means, despite whatever educational shortcomings they may impose upon themselves, they are still managing make their way in society just fine. If they are okay with it, who the hell are we to tell them different? How many homeless people have you seen last week? How many of them were not Southern Baptists? And how did you find out? quote: quote: The point is that the children were protected from these assholes, and that they wouldn't have been protected in a private school. The point is that people should have their options expanded, not restricted. If you don't like a particular private school's philosophy, then don't send your kid there. But if you don't like the public school's philosophy, why should people be forced to use it? Earlier you were arguing in favor of abolishing public schools altogether. Quite a different stance. quote: quote: By the way - a Federal Judge has now decided that even canceling the prom altogether was illegal. Good for him. The government has no business engaging in unwarranted discrimination against it's citizens. Exactly. Score for public schools. quote: quote: Ummmm. Enrollment: SEVEN. That school apparently didn't survive long; the last trace of it that I could find was from 2003, only six years after they started. Schools can't survive unless they are supported by a massive portion of the population. I noticed that you didn't mention anything about the liberal private schools. Okay, so maybe the gay private school did work that time around but that is not the point. The point is not how many there are or whether one succeeds while another doesn’t; the point is that people have the freedom to try rather than rely on the government which may or may not go their way. If you don't have other options, what do you do when the government fails? What if that judge had ruled the other way? How much longer would people have to wait for the appeals process? Why should they have to wait just because people like yourself may not approve of them? Why can't they have the frredom to do for themselves? The notion that school's can't survive unless they are supported by a massive portion of the population is silly. I know of schools in the Southern Tier of New York (both public and private) that have less than twenty students. No, the point is that a school - ONE school - that operated for a few years in Dallas, and a few elementary schools in Berkeley don't help the lesbian in Fulton, Mississippi whose prom was canceled. Fulton, MS - population 3882. The whole school district has only about 250 students at the grade level. Re small schools with less than 20 students: you must be referring to rural schools? How many of them are high schools? quote: quote: Exactly my point. I'm just not sure why you still defend the right of parents to decide whether their children should be allowed to learn to "go out and kill the infidel". I don’t. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: one person’s rights end where the next person’s begins. Bravo! So why do you defend the rights of parents to infringe on their children's right to a quality education?

NathaninTexas -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/26/2010 6:10:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: I don't have a problem with the state requiering basic education - reading, writing, 'rithmatic - but when we start getting into areas of science, religion, history, etc - areas of deeply held personal conviction, it is quite another matter. While the study of comparative religion is an elective in many state schools Religion as a subject is not. I find it interesting that you do not feel that knowledge of science and history are areas that the state has any right to teach. Religion used to teach us that the earth was the center of the solar system. Science has shown us that that is not true. History is a log of what has gone before. Please explane why you are against this sort of knowledge being dispensed by state sponsored schools? I feel a need to intervene here. As someone who is pursuing a post grad degree in history I should tell you a few things 1. History is always written by the winners of wars and the people in power. It is never written by the losers or the oppressed. and more importantly 2. Half of writing history is hiding the truth. I would also postulate to you that the men that discovered the earth wasn't the center of the universe were devoutly religious men and were formerly apologized to by the church after their discovery was generally accepted. Copernicus and Galileo were both very devout Catholics. before you go about damning religion I'll quote one of the most significant men in democratic history. " If Men are so wicked as we now see them with Religion what would they be if without it?" - Benjamin Franklin.

Marc2b -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/26/2010 7:58:59 AM)
quote: It takes considerably more funding when the majority of the students is in the 80-110 range. Private schools can cherrypick the easy-to-educate students. - Having the "genius" in a mixed environment benefits the remaining students, too. Does it? Usually the brainiacs (AKA nerds) end up harassed (sometimes quite violently) by the by the other students so I fail to see how it benefits either one. quote: By the way, this isn't limited to private schools. Charter schools, magnet schools etc. also have similar impact, as well as the highly localized school funding through property taxes. By the way, the point here isn't that "schools for geniuses are bad" but that the funding imbalance needs to be addressed and that comparing the educational success of such schools is comparing apples and oranges. Then address the funding imbalance. quote: How many homeless people have you seen last week? How many of them were not Southern Baptists? And how did you find out? I haven't seen any homeless people around my stomping grounds. If the majority, or even a significant portion of homeless are Southern Babtists then point me to a study that says so. Otherwise, the point is made. quote: Earlier you were arguing in favor of abolishing public schools altogether. Quite a different stance. At no point in this thread, or any other thread, have I advocated the abolishment of public schools. I do not advocate the abolishment of public schools. I advocate for the rights of people to either make use of the public schools or some other alternative based upon their own conscience. quote: Exactly. Score for public schools. Actually, I’d say score one against the public schools and score one for a wise judge. quote: No, the point is that a school - ONE school - that operated for a few years in Dallas, and a few elementary schools in Berkeley don't help the lesbian in Fulton, Mississippi whose prom was canceled. Fulton, MS - population 3882. The whole school district has only about 250 students at the grade level. The point is that the parents of the young lady in question should have more options than just fighting the local school district. They can fight the local school district if they want to – I applaud them for doing so, in fact – but they shouldn’t have to feel forced into a fight because their options are limited. quote: Re small schools with less than 20 students: you must be referring to rural schools? How many of them are high schools? Most of them are all grades. quote: Bravo! So why do you defend the rights of parents to infringe on their children's right to a quality education? [8\|] And the whirly-gig goes on. Once again ([sm=banghead.gif]) who decides what is or is not a quality education?

NathaninTexas -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/26/2010 8:40:44 AM)
Mark you are absolutely correct on all fronts. Academics are not valued or rewarded near as much as popularity or athletics. Athletics didnt get us the automobile, the telephone, or the internet. The smart kids were always the downtrodden in schools and there is almost no effort to stop that kind of thing. But got forbid we let someone think they are a loser for being stupid or not winning a football game.

cadenas -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/28/2010 12:06:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b Then address the funding imbalance. Exactly my point. It's quite easy, actually: simply require that private schools accept any student who applies, using the same standards as public schools. The funding imbalance will disappear in no time. quote: quote: How many homeless people have you seen last week? How many of them were not Southern Baptists? And how did you find out? I haven't seen any homeless people around my stomping grounds. If the majority, or even a significant portion of homeless are Southern Babtists then point me to a study that says so. Otherwise, the point is made. You were the one who made this nonsensical claim without ever presenting a shred of evidence for it. quote: quote: Re small schools with less than 20 students: you must be referring to rural schools? How many of them are high schools? Most of them are all grades. Care to share any data? Or even just an anecdotal example?

Marc2b -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/29/2010 1:56:49 PM)
quote: Exactly my point. It's quite easy, actually: simply require that private schools accept any student who applies, using the same standards as public schools. The funding imbalance will disappear in no time. If the private schools were forced to use the same standards as the public schools then they’d be just the same (which in most cases means just as shitty) as the public schools. quote: You were the one who made this nonsensical claim without ever presenting a shred of evidence for it. And you are the one who keeps harping on it. The point was, and remains, that the vast majority of Southern Baptists are not homeless and therefore we can conclude that they’re education is not hampering them from finding employment and surviving in contemporary society. quote: Care to share any data? Or even just an anecdotal example? I’m not really sure what you’re looking for here or how it relates to the matter at hand. This is a big country with some very large rural areas and some very small towns (if you can call them that). In many cases they will bus these students to nearby large towns but I know of a few in the Southern Tier region of New York where they have their own school and where all grades attend the same building (because there are so few students). These buildings may not look like the school houses of yore (although there are some still in use) but it is essentially the same thing.

cadenas -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/30/2010 4:22:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: Exactly my point. It's quite easy, actually: simply require that private schools accept any student who applies, using the same standards as public schools. The funding imbalance will disappear in no time. If the private schools were forced to use the same standards as the public schools then they’d be just the same (which in most cases means just as shitty) as the public schools. Actually, the point is that they ARE just as "shitty" to use your word - the only reason test scores are higher is that these schools are allowed to pick only the best-scoring students. quote: quote: You were the one who made this nonsensical claim without ever presenting a shred of evidence for it. And you are the one who keeps harping on it. The point was, and remains, that the vast majority of Southern Baptists are not homeless and therefore we can conclude that they’re education is not hampering them from finding employment and surviving in contemporary society. Now that is a completely different statement. The vast majority of {Atheists\|Southern Baptists\|Muslims\|Musicians\|people with freckles\|whatever group} is not homeless, simply because most PEOPLE aren't homeless. That statement, of course, does not allow any conclusions at all. Your original claim was that for some magical reason, you could read the mind of every homeless person you ran into and somehow knew their religious affiliation. And you claimed that through this magical divine inspiration, Southern Baptists were supposedly underrepresented among homeless people. On that, I am calling BS. In fact, if anything, Southern Baptists are probably more likely to be homeless than Atheists because Atheists tend to be more educated (as measured in college degrees). quote: quote: Care to share any data? Or even just an anecdotal example? I’m not really sure what you’re looking for here or how it relates to the matter at hand. You claimed that a school with 7 students provided an education equivalent to a high school with hundreds of students, and used these rural schools as an example. What I'm interested in is: - Names of towns with such schools - College performance of graduates from such schools.

Marc2b -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/30/2010 1:26:18 PM)
quote: Actually, the point is that they ARE just as "shitty" to use your word - the only reason test scores are higher is that these schools are allowed to pick only the best-scoring students. How do you know that they are just as shitty? So they pick only the best scoring students (if that is true, I spent four years at a Catholic school and trust me, they didn’t accept me because I was a genius – they accepted me because my parents could afford the tuition), so what? The point is, and remains: who are you to interfere in the private decisions of people in order bring about your notions of what society should be? quote: Now that is a completely different statement. The vast majority of {Atheists\|Southern Baptists\|Muslims\|Musicians\|people with freckles\|whatever group} is not homeless, simply because most PEOPLE aren't homeless. That statement, of course, does not allow any conclusions at all. The point is, and remains, that if the vast majority (or even a significant minority) of Southern Baptists, or any group, is not homeless then we can conclude that their educational choices (and their choice of religion) are not hampering them from sustaining themselves. Therefore, the notion that we must save these people from their selves falls flat. The truth of the matter is that most homeless are: A) Entirely uneducated (or at the very least, barely educated). B) Drug and/or alcohol dependent. C) Suffering from mental illness. D) Some combination of the above. These are the people who need help, who need to be saved from themselves. But that is an entirely different matter. quote: Your original claim was that for some magical reason, you could read the mind of every homeless person you ran into and somehow knew their religious affiliation. I made no such claim. quote: And you claimed that through this magical divine inspiration, Southern Baptists were supposedly underrepresented among homeless people. On that, I am calling BS. Since I am not a very religious person I have never, nor is it likely that I will ever, claim magical divine inspiration for anything. I prefer facts and logic, tempered with a dose a humility (when we compare our knowledge – or what we think is knowledge – to all that is know and unknown, we can only conclude that all of us are ignorant) and seasoned with respect for the rights and freedoms of others. I never said that Southern Baptists were underrepresented. I merely point out that they are not overrepresented. quote: In fact, if anything, Southern Baptists are probably more likely to be homeless than Atheists because Atheists tend to be more educated (as measured in college degrees). There is more than one kind of education. Sure, we tend to use the word education to mean “having a college degree,” a use born out of an arrogant presumption that a having college education means that such a person is more intelligent that others. But education and intelligence are not the same things. The former is the accumulated “facts” we have in our memory. Intelligence is our ability to recall those “facts” and our ability to reason and problem solve with them. The truth is that the farmer who never went to college may be just as intelligent (or even more so) that a college graduate. That farmer is also educated – just not educated in the things most people think education means. The farmer is educated in when and where (and what) to plant, what fertilizers to use, how to properly operate and maintain farm equipment, when to harvest and how to properly store the produce, etc, etc, etc. But because his education is deemed to have less status than the college professor’s education people then deem themselves more intelligent (education and intelligence do not go hand in hand – I have met many a well educated idiot). Are farmers more likely to be homeless because they have fewer college degrees? quote: You claimed that a school with 7 students provided an education equivalent to a high school with hundreds of students and used these rural schools as an example. What I'm interested in is: - Names of towns with such schools - College performance of graduates from such schools. I’ve made no claim that such schools are any better or worse than a high school. You asked how many of them are high schools? What does it matter?

cadenas -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/31/2010 3:34:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: Actually, the point is that they ARE just as "shitty" to use your word - the only reason test scores are higher is that these schools are allowed to pick only the best-scoring students. How do you know that they are just as shitty? Really, the better question is: how do you know they aren't? quote: You claimed that a school with 7 students provided an education equivalent to a high school with hundreds of students and used these rural schools as an example. What I'm interested in is: - Names of towns with such schools - College performance of graduates from such schools. I’ve made no claim that such schools are any better or worse than a high school. You asked how many of them are high schools? What does it matter? You were the one who claimed that parents could simply start their own school if they didn't like what was available, and offered these vaguely described "schools in the Southern Tier of New York" as evidence. Yet you have been unable to even NAME a single such school, let alone give any information about them at all.

Marc2b -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (3/31/2010 12:38:49 PM)
quote: Really, the better question is: how do you know they aren't? Precisely. You don’t know if they are or aren’t. So why should you be the one who gets to decided who goes and who doesn’t? quote: You were the one who claimed that parents could simply start their own school if they didn't like what was available, Wrong. I advocate for the right of parents to do so, not that they already can. quote: and offered these vaguely described "schools in the Southern Tier of New York" as evidence. Wrong. I mentioned small schools in response to your statement that “Schools can't survive unless they are supported by a massive portion of the population”. quote: Yet you have been unable to even NAME a single such school, let alone give any information about them at all. The Amish and Hicks tend not to be on the internet. Take a drive through the Southern Tier of New York – off the main roads – you’ll find them. Hell, I suspect you won’t even have to drive all the way to New York to find some.

cadenas -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (4/1/2010 5:09:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: Really, the better question is: how do you know they aren't? Precisely. You don’t know if they are or aren’t. So why should you be the one who gets to decided who goes and who doesn’t? See above - as long as public schools receive the same funding as private schools (if necessary even through a tax on tuitions) to allow them to remain competitive, I'd have a lot less problems with it. [quote[ quote: You were the one who claimed that parents could simply start their own school if they didn't like what was available, Wrong. I advocate for the right of parents to do so, not that they already can. No, you clearly argued that they already can and that it was practical to do so. quote: Yet you have been unable to even NAME a single such school, let alone give any information about them at all. The Amish and Hicks tend not to be on the internet. Take a drive through the Southern Tier of New York – off the main roads – you’ll find them. Hell, I suspect you won’t even have to drive all the way to New York to find some. And Amish schools are examples for "surviving without support from a massive portion of the population" why? Amish schools are examples for small schools providing an education comparable to major high schools how?

Marc2b -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (4/2/2010 1:06:54 PM)
quote: See above - as long as public schools receive the same funding as private schools (if necessary even through a tax on tuitions) to allow them to remain competitive, I'd have a lot less problems with it. A tax on tuition? That would price some people out of the private school market. The rich would still be able to afford it but middle class parents would be hit hard – thus restricting their options. I see no fairness in that. quote: No, you clearly argued that they already can and that it was practical to do so. The ability to do so is limited and varies from state to state. Whether it is practical or not also varies on a case to case basis. I argue for the right of people to make the necessary decisions themselves – not to have it crammed down their throats by the government. quote: And Amish schools are examples for "surviving without support from a massive portion of the population" why? Amish schools are examples for small schools providing an education comparable to major high schools how? Why does it have to be comparable to a major high school? A school needs to serve the educational needs of it students. All students are not the same and will not have the same needs. What makes a major high school the standard with which to judge all others? This thread is growing tedious and besides, it’s Easter weekend so I am going to wrap up here: I do not have a problem with public schools. I do not have a problem with public schools being supported by taxes – I just think it is unfair that some people have to pay twice. I don’t know why some people get so bent out of shape over that but don’t worry, I am under no delusions that it will change anytime soon. I do not have a problem with public schools setting a curriculum. What I do have a problem with is people being forced to adhere to other people’s idea of a “proper” education. I have a problem with people who arrogantly presume upon themselves a moral and intellectual superiority over the benighted masses and look upon those benighted masses as abstracts to be used as fodder in their social schemes. Either you believe in freedom or you don’t. I wish you and everybody a happy Easter.

cadenas -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (4/3/2010 12:37:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b quote: See above - as long as public schools receive the same funding as private schools (if necessary even through a tax on tuitions) to allow them to remain competitive, I'd have a lot less problems with it. A tax on tuition? That would price some people out of the private school market. The rich would still be able to afford it but middle class parents would be hit hard – thus restricting their options. I see no fairness in that. Au contraire; this scheme would provide the funding for a quality education to ALL schools, even those in poor and middle-class neighborhoods that are already priced out of the private-school market today. quote: quote: And Amish schools are examples for "surviving without support from a massive portion of the population" why? Amish schools are examples for small schools providing an education comparable to major high schools how? Why does it have to be comparable to a major high school? A school needs to serve the educational needs of it students. All students are not the same and will not have the same needs. What makes a major high school the standard with which to judge all others? You were the one who suggested that gay students should avoid harassment by attending a tiny school specifically for gays - and according to this response, obviously it is perfectly OK that these same small-gay-school-students receive an inferior education compared to a major high school. That was the point.

Marc2b -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (4/5/2010 7:26:39 AM)
quote: Au contraire; this scheme would provide the funding for a quality education to ALL schools, even those in poor and middle-class neighborhoods that are already priced out of the private-school market today. That is based upon a presumption that more money equals better quality. That is a dubious presumption at best. quote: You were the one who suggested that gay students should avoid harassment by attending a tiny school specifically for gays - No, I am suggesting that all students should have the option of attending a public school or a private school or be home schooled, etc, etc. I am suggesting that the family be the ones to decide which is the best option for them. Gay students attending a small private school specifically for gays is just one example of one possible option that could be taken in one specific circumstance. quote: and according to this response, obviously it is perfectly OK that these same small-gay-school-students receive an inferior education compared to a major high school. That was the point. And once again you are presuming that a small school cannot offer an equal or better education than a large school. You are also (once again) inserting your notions of what constitues a superior or inferior education. But other people are not carbon copies of you. They have different ideas, philosphies, religions, different goals and dreams. They should not have to kowtow to your notions of what is a good education for them. They should be free to pursue their happiness, not yours. It is not about how big or small a school is or how much money it has. It is not about whether a school teaches evolution or creationism. It is not about whether the students (or the principal) at one school harrass gay students or are welcoming to them. It is about the right of people to decide for themselves what is best for them without interference from the state or nosy busybodies who think they know better.

MsSavra -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (4/5/2010 7:42:10 AM)
I keep reading the word "freedom" in this discussion. For me that means "freedom to choose", to make choices about your own life. But in order to be able to use that freedom there must be choices and you must know which choices there are. And that's what German schools are about, that's what education in general is about - to be educated so that you can make the right choices for your life. Now this couple who ran away from German - and some of you may not realize that, Germany is a democratic country with an educational system that is not only about learning facts but also learning how to think and how to draw conclusions and making up your own mind and such like - is not giving their children those choices. They want them to think like they think. They don't want them to learn about the choices they can make for their own lives. Now, while I completely accept that this couple can make up their own choices for their own lives (no matter how crazy or misguided I might find them) I very much object to them having that right to make those choices for their children. Their children have a right to know that there is more than what their parents wish them to know about the world. Their children have the right to get the best education they can, just like any other child in Germany. Their children have the right to get qualified degrees and partake of all the benefits this society offers them, just like any other child in Germany. They should not be forced to lack abilities just because their parents have made certain choices for their lives. If their children want to go the same way they did one day, fine, so be it. But until then they should have the right to learn all there is to learn so that they can make up their mind. Anything else is brainwashing.

thompsonx -> RE: Seeking Asylum now in the US so they can homeschool their kids (4/7/2010 5:23:43 PM)
quote: Original NathaninTexas I feel a need to intervene here. As someone who is pursuing a post grad degree in history I should tell you a few things Well shit howdy fire away sonny...I am always interested in the opinions of post grad degree candidates. 1. History is always written by the winners of wars and the people in power. It is never written by the losers or the oppressed. So you are all set to study lies...interesting degree choice and more importantly 2. Half of writing history is hiding the truth. Oh my ....you have me right on the edge of my seat....what is the other half.... ???? I would also postulate to you that the men that discovered the earth wasn't the center of the universe were devoutly religious men and were formerly apologized to by the church after their discovery was generally accepted. This was how many years after the fact? Copernicus and Galileo were both very devout Catholics. So was Torquemada before you go about damning religion I'll quote one of the most significant men in democratic history. " If Men are so wicked as we now see them with Religion what would they be if without it?" - Benjamin Franklin. Of course you know what ol Bennie meant when he said that because you have read all of his personal letters and other correspondence...yeah right. One would have thought that you would have learned how to do research as an undergrad. You know that stuff that real students do to decipher the truth out of history.

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