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religious

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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Parents think people and dinasours lived at the same time.  The state school says not so.  Which do you want taught to the child

 
I would like to see evolution taught to the child.  But what I would like is not the point.  The point is whether or not I am willing to violate somebody's religious rights in order to satisfy my notions of what is a proper education.  I am not.

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Yes, everyone pays school taxes. Just because you don't own property, doesn't mean you aren't paying property taxes. The rent that you pay to your landlord, a portion is typically used to pay the taxes on the property. Sure it goes the long way around to get there, but it still gets there.

A public school education is every child's right and provided for free. If someone chooses to home school their children, or send them to private school at their expense, they don't get to be absolved of the school tax, nor should they. They are making a choice. If you have food at home and decide to eat at a restaurant, are you paying twice for dinner? No, you made a choice.

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ORIGINAL: cadenas

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Yes, everyone pays school taxes. Just because you don't own property, doesn't mean you aren't paying property taxes. The rent that you pay to your landlord, a portion is typically used to pay the taxes on the property. Sure it goes the long way around to get there, but it still gets there.

A public school education is every child's right and provided for free. If someone chooses to home school their children, or send them to private school at their expense, they don't get to be absolved of the school tax, nor should they. They are making a choice. If you have food at home and decide to eat at a restaurant, are you paying twice for dinner? No, you made a choice.

I wish that was true.

One of the problems public schools have is that their funding and their more gifted students are both redirected to (usually) religious schools using voucher programs. Private schools thus have plenty of money AND are allowed to cherry-pick their students to make their test scores appear better.

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


Not all states have voucher programs. New Jersey, I know doesn't. Neither does I believe Pennsylvania. Florida doesn't have a voucher program, they have a choice system where schools within a certain area can be chosen, but it isn't a voucher program.

While a lot of people don't have positive things to say about the Florida school system, one thing that the school choice system has definately caused is that each school needs to do their best to attract parents and students to their school. That means that they need to work harder to show that their school is a better choice than the next. Such a competition will make the schools better.

Here in New Jersey, where such a program is only available under certain circumstances, the schools have the parents and students as a "captive" audience. If you live in that district, that is where you go to school. If you don't want to go to that school, then there is a tuition cost for private school.

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Yes, everyone pays school taxes. Just because you don't own property, doesn't mean you aren't paying property taxes. The rent that you pay to your landlord, a portion is typically used to pay the taxes on the property. Sure it goes the long way around to get there, but it still gets there.

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A public school education is every child's right and provided for free. If someone chooses to home school their children, or send them to private school at their expense, they don't get to be absolved of the school tax, nor should they. They are making a choice. If you have food at home and decide to eat at a restaurant, are you paying twice for dinner? No, you made a choice.

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Part of your property taxes will also be used in your municipality to keep the roads in good shape, to plow the snow away, etc. If you don't have a car, should you not have to pay?

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Not all towns have a yearly septic inspection. I know mine doesn't. I know this because I know that the septic is in violation. I'm a renter though, so it isn't my responsibility to fix it.

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You want to support a parent's right to not teach their child evolution. But where does the parent's right to decide stop? That is the question that you can't answer.

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What if they feel their child doesn't need to know math? Or Language Arts? Do they have the right to not teach their child History? Do they have the right to teach their child that World Wars one and two never really happened? What about space exploration? Do they have the right to decide they don't want their children to learn that?

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You admitted several pages ago that when these children become adults and are suddenly confronted with these alternate theories, what a shock it will be. This certainly will go against the best interest of the children, yet you feel it is a parent's right to do so? That's bordering on neglect. If you want to say that a parent has the right to decide what their children learn or don't learn, then they can also decide NOT to educate their children as well. Somewhere there has to be a line in the sand of what is or is not right.

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The reality is that a parent who wants to home school their child specifically because of their disagreement with evolution is that they are afraid and not confident in their own ability as parents. They fear that if their children are presented with an alternate theory about the world, they might believe it. They don't have their children's best interest in mind at all.

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I actually once had a discussion with my mother, a devout born again Christian, about how the theory of evolution and creationism could mesh together. I wish I remembered her explanation, because it was a good one.

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The point is we ALL want the best for our kids. We ALL want to shield them from the harsh realities of life for as long as we can. If someone wants to homeschool their children, and they have the necessary intelligent to do so and can prove it, they should be able to. My ex husband has an IQ of 74, had he wanted to home school our son, he obviously isn't capable of doing so properly. There are scores of other parents who are intellectually challenged just as much as him, but who want to home school their kids. It isn't in the best interest of the children.

The best interest of the child supercedes the rights of the parents. The "best interest" is decided by the majority of society. The same majority of society that decides what should be legal or not legal. It's really that simple.

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I don't think this is a matter of religious rights at all, even though some people make it so. Religious rights does not include the right to be shielded from facts - and that dinosaurs predate humans by some 60 million years is a fact.

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Would you accept it if parents decide that their children should only learn addition and multiplication but not subtraction and division?

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There also is a major societal goal at stake here. Society offers public schools and requires parents to provide for children's education not just for the good of the children - but also for the good of society as a whole. And as long as we allow parents to arbitrarily omit major chunks of that education, the USA will remain a backwards country and lose out to countries such as China.

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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You want to support a parent's right to not teach their child evolution. But where does the parent's right to decide stop? That is the question that you can't answer.

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b
No. I have not said that parents don’t have a right to not educate their children. I have said that parents have the right to be the primary deciders of what the bulk of that education should be.

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You misunderstood. I said "where" not "when." Where do we draw the line. Parents want their children to learn creationism, not evolution. Ok. What about when they don't want them to learn other things or because the child is ready to move beyond the parent's capabilities, they don't learn further? Who draws the line? The parents?

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Evolution is in no way shape or form the "bulk" of a child's education. In reality, it is as small as a grain of sand. So parents are trying to decide the bulk of their kids' education, they want control over one issue, and whether capable or not are willing to take on the "bulk" of the education in order to control a grain of sand.

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I won't even bother with the remainder of your post. You have reached a point where you just want to continue to try to get your point across no matter how many times people disagree with you.

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I understand you believe you are the voice of reason in a world lacking reason.

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What you don't seem to realize is that the more you talk, the less everyone is listening. The more you go on, the less sense you make and you are only repeating the same things over and over and those are the very things people disagree with. In other words, perhaps it is time to learn how to cut your losses and move on.

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
While a lot of people don't have positive things to say about the Florida school system, one thing that the school choice system has definately caused is that each school needs to do their best to attract parents and students to their school. That means that they need to work harder to show that their school is a better choice than the next. Such a competition will make the schools better.

Here in New Jersey, where such a program is only available under certain circumstances, the schools have the parents and students as a "captive" audience. If you live in that district, that is where you go to school. If you don't want to go to that school, then there is a tuition cost for private school.

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I acknowledge that this tax is passed on to the consumer in most cases. You want to make that mean something else...Why?

After all the battles we’ve had over taxes in the past, I just find it astounding that you finally acknowledge that all taxes are ultimately paid by the individual – whether directly, through state “fees” or through higher prices.

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So the corollary to your theory is that if the goverment were to remove all taxes from business then the price of all goods and services would go down by that amount?

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You live here so you ipso facto have an implied contract with the government.
You live in an apartment and pay rent...you go out of town for a few days you still pay rent on the apartment even when you are not using it.

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I see you still have not mastered the art of reading.  Twice I point out that some not all taxes are passed on and you want to make that ALL.  Please learn to read. 

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So it is your position that if you had no "stuff" you would not still be obligated to pay rent?

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So you have no real evidence to present?
Please show with some meaningful documentation that the public school system is somehow less effective than what it replaced.  Oh waite it replaced nothing.  So it would seem that you would prefer total ignorance to any thing that is now provided by the taxpayers?

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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So you have no real evidence to present?
Please show with some meaningful documentation that the public school system is somehow less effective than what it replaced.  Oh waite it replaced nothing.  So it would seem that you would prefer total ignorance to any thing that is now provided by the taxpayers?

This is your typical bullshit response to opinions and facts you don't like.  Take something somebody said, twist into something else, and then present it as some sort of moral failing.  Where have I ever said that the public school system is less effective than nothing at all?  I have not (and you've got the fucking gall to tell me to learn how to read?). 

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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So it is your position that if you had no "stuff" you would not still be obligated to pay rent?

This is nonsense.  How many people with no material possesions rent apartments?  Your analogy simply doesn't work.  Deal with it.

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ORIGINAL: Marc2b

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When has this ever happened in the real world?

Frequently.  Business often try to lure customers by having lower prices than the competition.