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RE: Supreme Court leaning towards extending gun rights? - 3/3/2010 8:02:47 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Kinda strange, I got a phone call from the NRA about an hour ago, asking for money to fight impending legislation to further ban weapons!


Yeah, them fuckheads are always calling me trying to get me to join.

I tell them that I find that their views are not extreme enough.

Ron

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RE: Supreme Court leaning towards extending gun rights? - 3/3/2010 8:03:12 AM   
kittinSol


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If the Supreme Court rules that it's a fundamental right to carry a gun at all times, I bloody well hope they'll allow guns within the Supreme Court itself. Oh, and inside Congress. And inside the Senate too. After all, if the rest of the citizens have to take the risk of going to work where colleagues might be armed (and having a bad day), then so should the Judges. And the Congressmen and Congresswomen. And the Senators.

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RE: Supreme Court leaning towards extending gun rights? - 3/3/2010 8:06:49 AM   
InvisibleBlack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

Yeah, that's exactly it. It's going to really get interesting. From what I remember of Heller, I thought the intent was to leave states and municipalities a lot of latitude to set their own local restrictions. But evidently I misunderstood it, or am remembering it wrong.

Wow. Fireworks are coming.



I believe that Heller does allow states and local governments the right to restrict firearms ownership - such as licensing or registration - I believe it forbids an outright ban. So while states can regulate firearm ownership they cannot outright prevent it.

The current case (I think it's McDonald v. City of Chicago) is a challenge to Chicago's gun ban - which is logical given the Court's ruling in Heller. Even if the City of Chicago loses, states could still require licensing to own a firearm, or ban guns in schools, or forbid felons from owning firearms.

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RE: Supreme Court leaning towards extending gun rights? - 3/3/2010 8:08:25 AM   
slvemike4u


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The point IB was that gun control laws are under attack, and losing....while the pro-gun lobby continues to whip up this false hysteria that President Obama is coming to take your guns...its pure bullshit .Please tell me the last court decision which infringed in any way the rights of gun enthusiasts?

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RE: Supreme Court leaning towards extending gun rights? - 3/3/2010 8:12:06 AM   
Musicmystery


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At what point do people wake up and realize all this serves to whip up more anxiety and irrational fears to sell more guns.

People complain about industry running everything, and yet rush to do its bidding.

Puppets. It's a damn nation of puppets.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/3/2010 8:38:10 AM >

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RE: Supreme Court leaning towards extending gun rights? - 3/3/2010 8:33:14 AM   
slvemike4u


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Exactly MM,it was Christmas morning for the Gun Industry when Obama took the election....and they played it well ,whipping up fear and distrust into a frenzy of shopping.....and the enthusiasts ate it up like momma's pudding.

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Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Supreme Court leaning towards extending gun rights? - 3/3/2010 8:59:55 AM   
LadyEllen


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There are several versions of the text of the Second Amendment, each with slight capitalization and punctuation differences, found in the official documents surrounding the adoption of the Bill of Rights.[4] One such version was passed by the Congress, which reads:[5]




A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Another version is found in the copies distributed to the states, and then ratified by them, which had this capitalization and punctuation:[6]




A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
(Wiki)

It seems an odd thing to me to hold in any way that the various parts of the Constitution ought not be to interpreted in such a way that they are interpreted together as a whole, rather than as individual parts distinct from one another, and also odd to hold that the parts must not be applied together as a whole such that each part is subject only to the limitations arising on it from the satisfaction of all the others. So unless the 14th amendment says something to the effect of "pick and choose" then it must influence and inform the 2nd as much as the 2nd influences and informs the 14th.

Nevertheless, given that the individual states have ratified the 2nd (and the rest) into their state constitutions with the same wording, then there can be no argument surely that the states each or in concert have any right to impose varying conditionality as to the availability of the rights thereby guaranteed?

But the wording is interesting, for even if we dismiss such notions as the National Guard (or police for that matter) being the descendant form of the "militia" referred to and hold instead that militia means what it says - armed and organised civilians, the use of the words "well regulated" must have bearing in suggesting that the state and the US Federal state alike must take a role in ensuring the right is well regulated, for the right exists only so that the security of a free state may be provided for.

All well and good and I'm sure the above points have been raised and debated many times. The decision though is whether to interpret on a literal basis such that all kinds of people who ought not to be allowed a penknife let alone a firearm may have one, or whether to interpret such that common sense prevails (and I believe the intention is fulfilled) and only those capable of responsible gun ownership may have one. This must be the intention given the declared aim of allowing for a well regulated militia to maintain the security of a free state - rather than that every nutjob, crook and village idiot be permitted to have a firearm.

E

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RE: Supreme Court leaning towards extending gun rights? - 3/3/2010 11:08:21 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Panda, it sounds like people will be able to own handguns in cities that have banned such (if I read correctly).

Kinda strange, I got a phone call from the NRA about an hour ago, asking for money to fight impending legislation to further ban weapons!




Level, that's how I read it too. States or municipalities shouldn't be restricting rights.
Restricting First Amendment rights or Freedom of the Press wouldn't be tolerated for one minute! I don't understand why people have tolerated this nonsense for so long.
And any state issued "permit" to carry should be honored in all states just like a driver's lisense.
As it is now you can't carry a gun in NYC but in neighboring Vermont you don't even need a "permit" to carry a gun concealed on your person.
You have to laugh when some people mention "New York" and the word "progressive" in the same sentance.
Funny, I've never needed a "permit" from any state to vote.

Lady E, my lawyer when I lived in New Hampshire told me that, "any three people constitutes a militia."
The whole thing is that any "power" is vested in "The People" of this country not "The State."

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 3/3/2010 11:14:34 AM >


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RE: Supreme Court leaning towards extending gun rights? - 3/3/2010 11:10:54 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

States or municipalities shouldn't be restricting rights.
Restricting First Amendment rights or Freedom of the Press wouldn't be tolerated for one minute! I don't understand why people have tolerated this nonsense for so long.


The difference is that firearms are potentially a threat to other citizens.

When free speech or freedom of the press poses a threat to other citizens, it is also restricted.

No reason firearms should be exempt from this reasonable approach.

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RE: Supreme Court leaning towards extending gun rights? - 3/3/2010 11:17:22 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

States or municipalities shouldn't be restricting rights.
Restricting First Amendment rights or Freedom of the Press wouldn't be tolerated for one minute! I don't understand why people have tolerated this nonsense for so long.


The difference is that firearms are potentially a threat to other citizens.

When free speech or freedom of the press poses a threat to other citizens, it is also restricted.

No reason firearms should be exempt from this reasonable approach.



Music, and like automobiles any problem is dealt with "individually."
If one person is driving drunk you don't charge everyone with DUI do we?

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RE: Supreme Court leaning towards extending gun rights? - 3/3/2010 11:25:56 AM   
kittinSol


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Anyway, I thought conservatives were all about States' rights ?

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RE: Supreme Court leaning towards extending gun rights? - 3/3/2010 11:30:06 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

States or municipalities shouldn't be restricting rights.
Restricting First Amendment rights or Freedom of the Press wouldn't be tolerated for one minute! I don't understand why people have tolerated this nonsense for so long.


The difference is that firearms are potentially a threat to other citizens.

When free speech or freedom of the press poses a threat to other citizens, it is also restricted.

No reason firearms should be exempt from this reasonable approach.


Music, and like automobiles any problem is dealt with "individually."
If one person is driving drunk you don't charge everyone with DUI do we?

Exactly the point, popeye--we have long recognized the right and ability of localities to set their own reasonable restrictions.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Anyway, I thought conservatives were all about States' rights ?

Interesting how that's always conveniently selective, isn't it....

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RE: Supreme Court leaning towards extending gun rights? - 3/3/2010 11:34:20 AM   
InvisibleBlack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Anyway, I thought conservatives were all about States' rights ?


I believe that conservatives are about individual rights, and then States' rights, with the Fed's coming in last on the hierarchy.

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RE: Supreme Court leaning towards extending gun rights? - 3/3/2010 11:38:02 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

I believe that conservatives are about individual rights


As are liberals and moderates.

Patriot Act not withstanding....



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RE: Supreme Court leaning towards extending gun rights? - 3/3/2010 11:43:15 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack
I believe that conservatives are about individual rights, and then States' rights, with the Fed's coming in last on the hierarchy.


Except when it comes to the "moral issues" that get them all excited (you know the ones I'm talking about) - then they're quite happy to delegate to the big guy up in the sky, and relinquish our rights on our behalves.

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RE: Supreme Court leaning towards extending gun rights? - 3/3/2010 11:46:42 AM   
InvisibleBlack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
At what point do people wake up and realize all this serves to whip up more anxiety and irrational fears to sell more guns.

People complain about industry running everything, and yet rush to do its bidding.

Puppets. It's a damn nation of puppets.


Hang on, you're claiming the U. S. gun industry has undue influence? They've been hurting for years. I think Colt was on the verge of collapse and got bought out by someone else in the early 90s. Smith & Wesson has been flirting with bankruptcy for years.

You'll notice all the popualr guns these days are foreign - Glock, Sig Sauer, Beretta, etc. The share of the firearms market held by U. S. gun companies has been shrinking for decades.

The gun companies don't run the gun lobby - the NRA and the gun enthusiasts do.




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RE: Supreme Court leaning towards extending gun rights? - 3/3/2010 11:54:03 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
At what point do people wake up and realize all this serves to whip up more anxiety and irrational fears to sell more guns.

People complain about industry running everything, and yet rush to do its bidding.

Puppets. It's a damn nation of puppets.


Hang on, you're claiming the U. S. gun industry has undue influence? They've been hurting for years. I think Colt was on the verge of collapse and got bought out by someone else in the early 90s. Smith & Wesson has been flirting with bankruptcy for years.

You'll notice all the popualr guns these days are foreign - Glock, Sig Sauer, Beretta, etc. The share of the firearms market held by U. S. gun companies has been shrinking for decades.

The gun companies don't run the gun lobby - the NRA and the gun enthusiasts do.



From http://www.researchandmarkets.com/reports/c36203:

The US firearms industry includes about 200 companies with combined annual revenue of $2 billion. The largest gun manufacturers are Remington and Sturm Ruger. Other companies that manufacture more than 50,000 weapons annually are Marlin, Mossberg, Smith & Wesson, H&R, US Repeating Arms, Savage, Bryco, Beretta, and Beemiller. Remington and Winchester are also major manufacturers of ammunition.

The industry is highly concentrated: the five largest producers control 55 percent of the pistol market and 72 percent of the rifle market. Three manufacturers (Mossberg, H&R, and Remington) control 86 percent of the shotgun market, while just two (Smith & Wesson and Sturm Ruger) control 80 percent of the revolver market.

Demand, which has been flat for years, is partly driven by hunters and partly by weapons' upgrades by police departments. The profitability of individual companies is closely linked to volume because fixed costs are high. Small companies can compete effectively by producing high-quality or decorative guns that sell for a premium.

ETA--

The number of privately owned guns in the U.S. is at an all-time high, and rises by about 4.5 million per year.
BATFE, "Annual Firearm Manufacturers and Export Reports" (www.atf.gov/firearms/stats/index.htm).

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/3/2010 12:10:03 PM >

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RE: Supreme Court leaning towards extending gun rights? - 3/3/2010 3:45:14 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

States or municipalities shouldn't be restricting rights.
Restricting First Amendment rights or Freedom of the Press wouldn't be tolerated for one minute! I don't understand why people have tolerated this nonsense for so long.


The difference is that firearms are potentially a threat to other citizens.

When free speech or freedom of the press poses a threat to other citizens, it is also restricted.

No reason firearms should be exempt from this reasonable approach.


Music, and like automobiles any problem is dealt with "individually."
If one person is driving drunk you don't charge everyone with DUI do we?

Exactly the point, popeye--we have long recognized the right and ability of localities to set their own reasonable restrictions.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Anyway, I thought conservatives were all about States' rights ?

Interesting how that's always conveniently selective, isn't it....




Music, it's a little more complicated than that. Driving a car is a "priviledge", carrying a gun is a "right."

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RE: Supreme Court leaning towards extending gun rights? - 3/3/2010 4:47:24 PM   
Musicmystery


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popeye, it was YOUR example.

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RE: Supreme Court leaning towards extending gun rights? - 3/3/2010 5:59:34 PM   
InvisibleBlack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
From http://www.researchandmarkets.com/reports/c36203:

The US firearms industry includes about 200 companies with combined annual revenue of $2 billion. The largest gun manufacturers are Remington and Sturm Ruger. Other companies that manufacture more than 50,000 weapons annually are Marlin, Mossberg, Smith & Wesson, H&R, US Repeating Arms, Savage, Bryco, Beretta, and Beemiller. Remington and Winchester are also major manufacturers of ammunition.

The industry is highly concentrated: the five largest producers control 55 percent of the pistol market and 72 percent of the rifle market. Three manufacturers (Mossberg, H&R, and Remington) control 86 percent of the shotgun market, while just two (Smith & Wesson and Sturm Ruger) control 80 percent of the revolver market.

Demand, which has been flat for years, is partly driven by hunters and partly by weapons' upgrades by police departments. The profitability of individual companies is closely linked to volume because fixed costs are high. Small companies can compete effectively by producing high-quality or decorative guns that sell for a premium.

ETA--

The number of privately owned guns in the U.S. is at an all-time high, and rises by about 4.5 million per year.
BATFE, "Annual Firearm Manufacturers and Export Reports" (www.atf.gov/firearms/stats/index.htm).


That link generates an error.

I'm having real trouble finding any detailed statistics on the United States gun industry. I question the validity of the article you posted. Having done a little more research - Colt went bankrupt in 1992. It emerged from bankruptcy in 1996 under new ownership but has discontinued most of its former lines. Uberti (an Italian company) now makes and sells more Colt-designed revolvers in the United States than Colt does. Smith & Wesson almost went under and was sold in 2001 to the Saf-T Hammer corporation for $15 million dollars (its previous book value was 112 million). Winchester (U. S. Repeating Arms) went bankrupt in 1989 and was bought out by a Belgian holding company. They closed the Winchester plant in Connecticut in 2006. Beretta US is a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Beretta Holding Group - an Italian company.

The Guide to the U. S. Small Arms Market (which only has data upto 2004) shows a marked decline in U.S. manufacturer's share of their own market and increasing imports. Between 1998 and 2004 US firearms went from 80 percent of the US market to 60 percent. Imported firearms went from 20 percent to 40 percent. I don't believe this trend has reversed itself, although I lack the data to support that theory.

http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/files/sas/publications/o_papers_pdf/2006-op19-US.pdf

When deciding to equip the Iraqi Army - the DOD bought European made AK-47s and Glock pistols. I believe that Glock also now has better than 60% of the law enforcement market. While I wouldn't dispute that more Americans own firearms now than they ever have before - I'm fairly certain that more of those firearms are of foreign make than at any time in history since the Revolutionary War.

Looking up individual companies is time consuming work but I did one more - Remington - which is the largest U. S. firearms manufacturer:

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSWEN615420070405

In somewhat startling news, the Remington Arms Company announced yesterday that it would be acquired by Cerberus Capital Managment. Cerberus is paying $118 million in cash and assuming Remington’s $252 million of accumulated debt. The deal is expected to close June 7th. Remington Arms was founded in 1816 by Eliphalet Remington II. Currently, Remington is the #1 producer of shotguns and #1 producer of rifles for U.S. domestic sales according to published BATF records. For the time being Remington’s executives will stay in place, but Cerberus is known for bringing in its own management teams to run the companies it has acquired. Cerberus specializes in acquiring large enterprises that are cash-strapped or on the verge of bankruptcy, and then turning them around. In 2006 Remington posted earnings of $300,000 after three previous years of losses.

The American firearms industry was robust in the 1960s. It's not now and it hasn't been for quite some time. I know there are people here with more day-to-day experience in the firearms market than I have these days. How are the U.S. guns selling as opposed to foreign ones?

[Edited: left out my links]

< Message edited by InvisibleBlack -- 3/3/2010 6:01:33 PM >


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