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Diesel fumes more carcinogenic than smoking - 3/4/2010 8:33:01 PM

Aneirin

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From: Tamaris
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I have referenced this article before on these forums but for a different reason, but after reading elsewhere, I just have to ask why Diesel Smoke and Lung Cancer by Dr Kitty Little is lodged away on a website rather than out in the public sphere, newspapers and via them, the general public, why when evidence is available, pretty conclusive evidence via research, we are still being told it is smoking tobacco that causes lung cancer. Why is this information as it appears not common knowledge ?

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/diesel_lung_cancer.html ( scroll down the page)

Or, why is it we are being lied to, again ?

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

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RE: Diesel fumes more carcinogenic than smoking - 3/4/2010 8:43:17 PM

juliaoceania

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I just ran this guy through google scholar and jstor... nothing. He hasn't published in any reputable scientific journal that can referee his work. In other words, if what this person said was true, some scientific journal would publish his results. Because he has not been published I must infer that there was something flawed in his methodology that would lead other academics to dismiss his findings...

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RE: Diesel fumes more carcinogenic than smoking - 3/4/2010 8:48:50 PM

Termyn8or

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Two main reasons, money and money. On the bright side they haven't outlawed deisel fuel or engines, because we would be in deep shit. Everything you have comes in on a truck, even your truck. Maybe over there a lorry is not the same as a truck, but you know what I mean. Much shipping is still powered by that fuel, and stopping it's usage would simply cripple the structure right now. In a way they simply can't attack deisels. It is not in their best interest.

Smokers are a much easier target, and enough are addicted enough to pay a high tax to inbibe. They are considered vulnerable as addicts. There are also enough non smokers around to exploit smokers. Also, there was all that old money in the tobacco companies' hands that was ripe for the taking.

At least that's how it worked here.

Also note that very heavy road use taxes are applied to fuel here. If you need fuel for a reefer (refrigerated trailer) you can get what's referred to as red. It has a die in it and it is verboten under any circumstances to use it to move or otherwise do anything having to do with driving. If they catch you with one atom of this special red dye in the fuselage of the truck, the fine is astronomical. Last I heard it could be up to five grand. So they saw that money as ripe for the taking as well, with a captive market. But it did not require the publicity, even though it greatly affects each and every product sold in this country.

We are being plucked bare, and it isn't going to stop.

T

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 3

RE: Diesel fumes more carcinogenic than smoking - 3/4/2010 9:57:03 PM

Aneirin

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From: Tamaris
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This guy is a she, not a he ;

The late Dr Kitty Little was a research scientist for nearly fifty years. For ten of those years, early in her career, she worked in the medical division of the Atomic Energy Research Establishment, Harwell doing research into the effects of radiation on the body. She also worked in orthopaedics at Oxford University Medical School, with US Forces, Washington as a pathologist, and the MRC laboratory working on DNA and the causes of dental caries. At Oxford she wrote a textbook on bone pathology and bone cancer. Kitty died in late 1999.

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 3/4/2010 10:05:11 PM >

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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Post #: 4

RE: Diesel fumes more carcinogenic than smoking - 3/4/2010 10:04:45 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

It is a she, not a he, and also she died in 1999

I saw the photo of the old guy on the link and thought she was him.... and I thought... how odd, a man named kitty

That still did not address my points....

I can provide both medical journal sources and layman sources that state tobacco is indeed carcinogenic... I could not find one article to support this Dr Little's position...

There are many risks to smoking and it is tremendously bad for you.... I could barely breathe when I quit over 5 years ago. My life has completely changed since I quit smoking. I have also cared for someone that has harmed his health considerably by smoking... emphysema.

I do not know why you would choose to believe smoking is not bad for you, but the evidence is overwhelming that it is.

Sucking in diesel fuel is bad too... which is why Port of Long Beach is trying to institute measures to clean out diesel as a fuel source... because they are both bad for human health, they should both be stopped when impacting the public health

Edited to add, I lost my grandmother to lung cancer... she lived in the mountains away from traffic her entire life, but she smoked two packs a day

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 3/4/2010 10:06:17 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Post #: 5

RE: Diesel fumes more carcinogenic than smoking - 3/4/2010 10:12:51 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

The late Dr Kitty Little was a research scientist for nearly fifty years. For ten of those years, early in her career, she worked in the medical division of the Atomic Energy Research Establishment, Harwell doing research into the effects of radiation on the body. She also worked in orthopaedics at Oxford University Medical School, with US Forces, Washington as a pathologist, and the MRC laboratory working on DNA and the causes of dental caries. At Oxford she wrote a textbook on bone pathology and bone cancer. Kitty died in late 1999.

I saw the articles she wrote about bone cancer... no journal was willing to print her work on tobacco containing no carcinogens... I will also reiterate, if a scientific journal does not publish your work it means something was wrong with your methodology and therefore your result

I can find innumerous sources stating that tobacco is carcinogenic.. nicotine is a co-carcinogen, and there are naturally occurring carcinogens and additives that are carcinogenic...

If you like I can find some articles for you

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Post #: 6

RE: Diesel fumes more carcinogenic than smoking - 3/4/2010 10:22:35 PM

Aneirin

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I choose to smoke, but I do not choose to inhale diesel fumes, of which I have long known the fumes are a carcinogen, as I used to work heavily with agricultural diesel engines in confined spaces, that sort of information was available to us in an industrial position. I eventually left the job due to the diesels, I was not getting paid danger money for working with them.

But as regards smoking, I am and was before unconvinced smoking is such a danger for one particular reason, that being if it was so dangerous, why has it not been pulled from sale like so many other things have been. We all know, just as soon as something is identified as a danger to health, it soon become unavailable, that being, why despite all the noise from medics, government etc is it still on sale.

Could it be it has not been pulled from sale because it is not as dangerous to health as they make out, and to do so, will bring down the wrath of powerful tobacco companies who most likely have a whole wealth of information to back themselves up, and information from credible and verifiable sources. To pull tobacco from sale under the pretence it is a danger to health when it is not is something caring governments will not do, hence laws and restrictions to encourage people to quit it on their own.

Could you imagine it, if it did come out via credible and verifiable sources that smoking is not the danger we have been told it is, could you imagine the public questioning all those lies they have been told, and it's likely effect on who holds power at the time.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 7

RE: Diesel fumes more carcinogenic than smoking - 3/4/2010 10:26:10 PM

juliaoceania

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I can only relate what science has shown.... smoking is dangerous

There is a lot of money to be made from the sale of tobacco. Taxing it has made it a cash cow.

I know how my own health improved upon quitting. I also saw people I love die from smoke related diseases... I have never lost a loved one to a smoking related disease that wasn't also a smoker... isn't that weird?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Post #: 8

RE: Diesel fumes more carcinogenic than smoking - 3/4/2010 10:38:04 PM

Aneirin

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If indeed it was a smoking related disease

But instances of cardio vascular problems, throat problems, possibly asthma and increased brain stress according to Science Daily have been found to be caused by inhaling diesel fumes;

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/07/070730172804.htm

Smoking to me is a choice, it is mine to make for better or worse, but there is a bigger danger out there that affects smokers and non smokers alike, that is possibly why non smokers can have health issues that smokers have, but when a non smoker gets a smoking related illness, how is that explained I wonder.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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Post #: 9

RE: Diesel fumes more carcinogenic than smoking - 3/4/2010 10:43:43 PM

DomKen

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Please learn some critical thinking skills.

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RE: Diesel fumes more carcinogenic than smoking - 3/5/2010 3:55:37 AM

mefisto69

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Well, I dunno..... I always thought it was really bizarre that a "Runners" club would do laps around Phoenix Airport when I was living there. Jet fuel is far more toxic and flammable than diesel but Term is correct.... we have no viable solution to the combustion engine that will kill our reliance on fossil fuel and the residues we ingest - at this time. And yes - big oil has consistently squashed or purchased and shelved patents that improve mileage and lessen pollutants over the past 50 years or so.

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RE: Diesel fumes more carcinogenic than smoking - 3/5/2010 4:33:02 AM

thishereboi

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quote:

Why is this information as it appears not common knowledge ?

Because it's easier to pass constant tax hikes on smokers if you scare the non-smokers first.

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RE: Diesel fumes more carcinogenic than smoking - 3/5/2010 4:36:37 AM

LadyEllen

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I dont think for one moment that smoking is not extremely hazardous to health in the long term, and not merely by way of its carcinogenic attributes.

But diesel fumes most definitely pose just as potent a risk to public health as does the smoking of a quarter or a third of the population. And whereas we may legislate to limit the exposure of non-smokers to their smoking fellow citizens, diesel fumes are pretty much ubiquitous since diesel use is ubiquitous and there is no measure of consent given by anyone exposed to them except by the necessity we all recognise that there is little other practical choice at this time for the uses to which diesel is put.

Whilst this may explain why the information about diesel fumes is not as much part of the general mythos as that pertaining to tobacco smoke (or if it is then the absence of popular pressure to remove it as an energy source), it does not indicate that as a society we ought not to try to control exposure to tobacco smoke on the grounds that we all even so remain exposed to diesel fumes, whether or not the combination of each source doubles or trebles the risks. It makes sense to control the one we can until we have a practical alternative for the other.

What remains an annoyance however is that tobacco smoke, (and the smoker himself), is so often labelled as the source of all evil, with no consideration given to the other and very significant environmental health hazards that affect all without any degree of consent being possible, and I am sure that diesel fumes whilst significant perhaps, will not be the only such hazard to have escaped publicity, censure or control.

E

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RE: Diesel fumes more carcinogenic than smoking - 3/5/2010 5:23:51 AM

DarkSteven

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There are two hypotheses being suggested:

1. Diesel fumes are highly carcinogenic.
2. Tobacco is not very carcinogenic.

Kitty Little made a very weak attempt to link the two and clam a conspiracy.

I will not address the first point because I know nothing about diesel. But the second point is proven wrong many times over. I once read a short story by PG Wodehouse writtn in the 1910s or 1920s that showed that tobacco was known back then to be damaging to health. I've done some work that used toxicology results that showed that tobacco and nicotine have been shown toxic in animal tests due to skin contact and inhalation.

Please note that tobacco "usage" is not that cut and dried. In the US, it is smoked heavily, but I have known some Europeans and Arabs who smoked only a cigarette or two per day. Obviously, very light smokers like that could be used to skew results, and I suspect that Kitty Little used light smokers in her work.

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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RE: Diesel fumes more carcinogenic than smoking - 3/5/2010 5:50:00 AM

pahunkboy

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I will address diesel.

It sucks.

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RE: Diesel fumes more carcinogenic than smoking - 3/5/2010 5:54:37 AM

Louve00

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If you ask me, any inhaled polutant is a carcinogen. Granted, some may just not be healthy for you and not eventually increase your chances of getting cancer, but I don't know what they would be. http://quitsmoking.about.com/cs/nicotineinhaler/a/cigingredients.htm That sight will list the 900 and something carcinogens in a cigarette. And tobacco companies themselves in that article that while ALL the ingredients listed aren't carcinogens, some are actually considererd a food supplement, but none of them were tested in a burned state. (And there are studies done, showing that food cooked at high temperatures create carcinogens. Diesel fumes, chemical shops, the coal mines. Anything you put into your lungs could have a consequence. Think about it. :)

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For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

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RE: Diesel fumes more carcinogenic than smoking - 3/5/2010 5:58:51 AM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

If indeed it was a smoking related disease

But instances of cardio vascular problems, throat problems, possibly asthma and increased brain stress according to Science Daily have been found to be caused by inhaling diesel fumes;

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/07/070730172804.htm

Smoking to me is a choice, it is mine to make for better or worse, but there is a bigger danger out there that affects smokers and non smokers alike, that is possibly why non smokers can have health issues that smokers have, but when a non smoker gets a smoking related illness, how is that explained I wonder.

I will repeat, why do you need to push this article stating that smoking is not bad for you, and diesel fuel is? Why do you have to create a dichotomy? Do you think it will make diesel illegal to compare it to cigarettes? It is a little like arguing that arsenic isn't a poison because strictnine will kill ya faster and it takes less of it... which is rather silly.

If I were you I would invest myself into bringing attention to the fact that diesel is toxic to human health rather than trying to prove tobacco isn't dangerous... if your true agenda is outlawing diesel fuels that it.

I know diesel is bad, my Daddy works around those fumes every day and longshoremen get lung cancer in high numbers. I am all for outlawing diesel, but that doesn't mean smoking is without very large risks (longshoremen are often smokers too, which increases the risk).

If you are truly concerned about lung cancer, quit smoking and reduce your risks...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 17

RE: Diesel fumes more carcinogenic than smoking - 3/5/2010 6:02:10 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

If you ask me, any inhaled polutant is a carcinogen. Granted, some may just not be healthy for you and not eventually increase your chances of getting cancer, but I don't know what they would be. http://quitsmoking.about.com/cs/nicotineinhaler/a/cigingredients.htm That sight will list the 900 and something carcinogens in a cigarette. And tobacco companies themselves in that article that while ALL the ingredients listed aren't carcinogens, some are actually considererd a food supplement, but none of them were tested in a burned state. (And there are studies done, showing that food cooked at high temperatures create carcinogens. Diesel fumes, chemical shops, the coal mines. Anything you put into your lungs could have a consequence. Think about it. :)

People who chew also get cancers of the mouth, throat, lip, etc... so it isn't just smoking the crap that will kill ya....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Louve00)

Post #: 18

RE: Diesel fumes more carcinogenic than smoking - 3/5/2010 6:06:15 AM

Louve00

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Good point!! Also, The polluntants inhaled in your lungs, crossing the membranous linings of our lungs and entering the blood stream, brings ALL those carcinogens through out your entire body!! Bottom line....just don't smoke.

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For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

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RE: Diesel fumes more carcinogenic than smoking - 3/5/2010 6:57:12 AM

DarkSteven

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

If you ask me, any inhaled polutant is a carcinogen. Granted, some may just not be healthy for you and not eventually increase your chances of getting cancer, but I don't know what they would be. http://quitsmoking.about.com/cs/nicotineinhaler/a/cigingredients.htm That sight will list the 900 and something carcinogens in a cigarette. And tobacco companies themselves in that article that while ALL the ingredients listed aren't carcinogens, some are actually considererd a food supplement, but none of them were tested in a burned state. (And there are studies done, showing that food cooked at high temperatures create carcinogens. Diesel fumes, chemical shops, the coal mines. Anything you put into your lungs could have a consequence. Think about it. :)

Actually, that site isn't complete! That only covers the additives which are added in during the manufacturing process. But when tobacco is grown, it is not covered by USDA regs which limit pesticide use, so that tobacco will likely have greater pesticide residue levels than food does.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to Louve00)

Post #: 20

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