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RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! - 3/12/2010 8:35:08 PM   
Sanity


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No Kirata, the center is the middle. It isn't some imaginary thing that can't be measured, its where the country is politically. If you want to pretend that half of us are Liberals and half are Conservatives then fine, the measure would be right down between to two ideologies.

But the center isn't somewhere between Conservatives and Liberals, its decidedly on the right.


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RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! - 3/12/2010 8:38:35 PM   
domiguy


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What about the tree?

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RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! - 3/12/2010 8:39:41 PM   
Sanity


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Liberal radio, Liberal TV, and Liberal newspapers are failing miserably because they drive the majority of people away. Conservative or center right endeavours in those same fields are wildly successful because thats where the majority of the population is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Here's something I share with Freshmen.

About 45% of Freshmen feel they are in the top 5%.
About 80% of Freshmen feel they are in the top 10%.

Those are the poll numbers. Concluding, however, that most Freshmen are in the top 10% makes no sense.




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RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! - 3/12/2010 8:40:43 PM   
Musicmystery


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Seems you can make just about anything "conservative," including liberalism.

Conservatism
From Wikipedia

Conservatism is a political and social term from the Latin verb conservare meaning to save or preserve.[1] As the name suggests it usually indicates support for tradition and traditional values though the meaning has changed in different countries and time periods. The modern political term conservative was used by French politician Chateaubriand in 1819.[2] In Western politics, the term conservatism often refers to the school of thought started by Edmund Burke and similar thinkers.[3] Scholar R. J. White wrote: "To put conservatism in a bottle with a label is like trying to liquify the atmosphere […] The difficulty arises from the nature of the thing. For conservatism is less a political doctrine than a habit of mind, a mode of feeling, a way of living."[4] Russell Kirk considered conservatism "the negation of ideology".[5]

Conservative political parties have diverse views; the Liberal Democratic Party in Japan, the Republican Party in the United States, the Conservative Party in Britain, the Liberal Party of Australia, and the Bharatiya Janata Party in India are all considered major conservative parties with varying positions.

Development of Western conservatism


From the beginning, some political thought could be labelled "conservative" but it was not until the Age of Enlightenment, and the reaction to events surrounding the French Revolution of 1789, that conservatism rose as a distinct political attitude or train of thought. Many point to the rise of a conservative disposition in the wake of the Protestant Reformation, specifically to the works of influential Anglican theologian, Richard Hooker, emphasizing moderation in the political balancing of interests towards the goals of social harmony and common good. Edmund Burke’s polemic Reflections on the Revolution in France helped conservatism gain prominence.

Edmund Burke supported the American Revolution, but opposed the French Revolution, which he saw as violent and chaotic. He pressed for parliamentary control of royal patronage and expenditure.[6]

His classical conservative position insisted that conservatism has no ideology, in the sense of a utopian program, with some form of master plan. Burke developed his ideas in response to the enlightened idea of a society guided by abstract reason. He anticipated the critique of modernism, a term used at the end of the 19th century by the Dutch religious conservative Abraham Kuyper. Burke did not seek "to give praise or blame to any thing which relates to human actions, and human concerns, on a simple view of the object in all the nakedness and solitude of metaphysical abstraction".[7]
Joseph de Maistre (1753-1821)

Burke said some people had less reason than others, and thus some people will make better governments than others if they rely upon reason. The proper formulation of government came not from abstractions such as reason, but from time-honoured development of the state, piecemeal progress through experience and the continuation of other important societal institutions such as the family and the Church. He argued that tradition draws on the wisdom of many generations and the tests of time, while reason may be a mask for the preferences of one man, and at best represents only the untested wisdom of one generation. However, Burke wrote, "A state without the means of change is without the means of its conservation." Burke insisted further change be organic rather than revolutionary. An attempt to modify the complex web of human interactions that form human society, for the sake of some doctrine or theory, runs the risk of running afoul of the iron law of unintended consequences.

Western Conservatism has also been influenced by the Counter-Enlightenment works of Joseph de Maistre. Maistre argued for the restoration of hereditary monarchy, which he regarded as a divinely sanctioned institution, and for the indirect authority of the Pope over temporal matters. He also defended the principle of hierarchical authority, which the Revolution sought to destroy. Maistre published in 1819 his masterpiece Du Pape ("On the Pope"). The work is divided into four parts. In the first he argues that, in the Church, the pope is sovereign, and that it is an essential characteristic of all sovereign power that its decisions should be subject to no appeal. Consequently, the pope is infallible in his teaching, since it is by his teaching that he exercises his sovereignty. In the remaining divisions the author examines the relations of the pope and the temporal powers, civilization and the welfare of nations, and the schismatic Churches. He argues that nations require protection against abuses of power by a sovereignty superior to all others, and that this sovereignty should be that of the papacy, the historical saviour and maker of European civilization.

Conservatives strongly support the right of property, and Carl B. Cone, in Burke and the Nature of Politics, pointed out that this view, expressed as philosophy, also served the interests of the people involved.[8] Conservatives are usually economic liberals, diverging from classical liberalism in the tradition of Adam Smith.[9] Some conservatives look to a modified free market order, such as the American System, ordoliberalism, or Friedrich List's National System. The latter view differs from strict laissez-faire, in that the state's role is to promote competition while maintaining the national interest, community and identity.

Most conservatives strongly support the sovereign nation (although that was not so in the 19th century), and patriotically identify with their own nation. Nationalist separatist movements may be both radical and conservative.

Liberal conservatism

Liberal conservatism is a variant of conservatism that combines conservative values and policies with liberal stances. As these latter two terms have had different meanings over time and across countries, liberal conservatism also has a wide variety of meanings. Historically, the term often referred to the combination of economic liberalism, which champions laissez-faire markets, with the classical conservatism concern for established tradition, respect for authority and religious values. It contrasted itself with classical liberalism, which supported freedom for the individual in both the economic and social spheres.

Over time, the general conservative ideology in many countries adopted economic liberal arguments, and the term liberal conservatism was replaced with conservatism. This is also the case in countries where liberal economic ideas have been the tradition, such as the United States, and are thus considered conservative. In other countries where liberal conservative movements have entered the political mainstream, such as Italy and Spain, the terms liberal and conservative may be synonymous. The liberal conservative tradition in the United States combines the economic individualism of the classical liberals with a Burkean form of conservatism (which has also become part of the American conservative tradition, such as in the writings of Russell Kirk).

A secondary meaning for the term liberal conservatism that has developed in Europe is a combination of more modern conservative (less traditionalist) views with those of social liberalism. This has developed as an opposition to the more collectivist views of socialism. Often this involves stressing what are now conservative views of free-market economics and belief in individual responsibility, with social liberal views on defence of civil rights, environmentalism and support for a limited welfare state. This philosophy is that of Swedish Prime Minister Fredrik Reinfeldt. In continental Europe, this is sometimes also translated into English as social conservatism.

Conservative liberalism

Conservative liberalism is a variant of liberalism that combines liberal values and policies with conservative stances, or, more simply, the right wing of the liberal movement.[10][11][12] The roots of conservative liberalism are found at the beginning of the history of liberalism. Until the two World Wars, in most European countries the political class was formed by conservative liberals, from Germany to Italy. Conservative liberalism is a more positive and less radical version of classical liberalism.[13] The events such as World War I occurring after 1917 brought the more radical version of classical liberalism to a more conservative (i.e. more moderate) type of liberalism.[14]

Libertarian conservatism
Main article: Libertarian conservatism

Libertarian conservatism describes certain political ideologies within the United States and Canada which combines libertarian economic issues with aspects of conservatism. Its five main branches are Constitutionalism, paleolibertarianism, neolibertarianism, small government conservatism and Christian libertarianism. They generally differ from paleoconservatives, in that they are in favor of more personal and economic freedom.[15]

Agorists such as Samuel Edward Konkin III labeled libertarian conservatism right-libertarianism.[16][17]

In contrast to paleoconservatives, libertarian conservatives support strict laissez-faire policies such as free trade, opposition to the Federal Reserve and opposition to business regulations. They are vehemently opposed to environmental regulations, corporate welfare, subsidies, and other areas of economic intervention. Many of them have views in accord to Ludwig von Mises.[citation needed] However, many of them oppose abortion, as they see it as a positive liberty and violates the non-aggression principle because abortion is aggression towards the fetus.[18]

Fiscal conservatism


Fiscal conservatism is the economic philosophy of prudence in government spending and debt. Edmund Burke, in his 'Reflections on the Revolution in France', articulated its principles:

...[I]t is to the property of the citizen, and not to the demands of the creditor of the state, that the first and original faith of civil society is pledged. The claim of the citizen is prior in time, paramount in title, superior in equity. The fortunes of individuals, whether possessed by acquisition or by descent or in virtue of a participation in the goods of some community, were no part of the creditor's security, expressed or implied...[T]he public, whether represented by a monarch or by a senate, can pledge nothing but the public estate; and it can have no public estate except in what it derives from a just and proportioned imposition upon the citizens at large.

In other words, a government does not have the right to run up large debts and then throw the burden on the taxpayer; the taxpayers' right not to be taxed oppressively takes precedence even over paying back debts a government may have imprudently undertaken.

Green conservatism

Green conservatism is a term used to refer to conservatives who have incorporated green concerns into their ideology. The Conservative Party in the United Kingdom under David Cameron has embraced a green agenda that includes proposals designed to impose a tax on workplace car parking spaces, a halt to airport growth, a tax on 4x4 vehicles and restrictions on car advertising.[citation needed]

Cultural conservatism
Main article: Cultural conservatism

Cultural conservatism is a philosophy that supports preservation of the heritage of a nation or culture. The culture in question may be as large as Western culture or Chinese civilization or as small as that of Tibet. Cultural conservatives try to adapt norms handed down from the past. The norms may be romantic, like the anti-metric movement that demands the retention of avoirdupois weights and measures in Britain and opposes their replacement with the metric system. They may be institutional: in the West this has included chivalry and feudalism, as well as capitalism, laicité and the rule of law.

In the subset social conservatism, the norms may also be what is viewed as a question of morality. In some cultures, practices such as homosexuality are seen as immoral. In others, it is considered immoral for a woman to reveal too much of her body.

Cultural conservatives often argue that old institutions have adapted to a particular place or culture and therefore ought to be preserved. Others argue that a people have a right to their cultural norms, their own language and traditions.

Religious conservatism

Religious conservatives seek to apply the teachings of particular ideologies to politics, sometimes by proclaiming the value of those teachings, at other times seeking to have those teachings influence laws. Religious conservatism may support, or be supported by, secular customs. In other places or at other times, religious conservatism may find itself at odds with the culture in which the believers reside. In some cultures, there is conflict between two or more different groups of religious conservatives, each claiming both that their view is correct, and that opposing views are wrong.

Because many religions preserve a founding text, or at least a set of well-established traditions, the possibility of radical religious conservatism arises. These are radical both in the sense of abolishing the status quo and of a perceived return to the radix or root of a belief. They are ante conservative in their claim to be preserving the belief in its original or pristine form. Radical religious conservatism generally sees the status quo as corrupted by abuses, corruption, or heresy. One example of such a movement was the Radical Reformation within the Protestant Reformation and the later Restorationists of the 1800s. Similar phenomena have arisen in practically all the world's religions, in many cases triggered by the violent cultural collision between the traditional society in question and the modern Western society that has developed throughout the world over the past 500 years.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/12/2010 8:42:34 PM >

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RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! - 3/12/2010 8:44:51 PM   
DomKen


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Take any list of major issues and examine the national polling data on them. There is no way these numbers can be made to fit with the "center right" claim.

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RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! - 3/12/2010 8:45:32 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Liberal radio, Liberal TV, and Liberal newspapers are failing miserably because they drive the majority of people away. Conservative or center right endeavours in those same fields are wildly successful because thats where the majority of the population is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Here's something I share with Freshmen.

About 45% of Freshmen feel they are in the top 5%.
About 80% of Freshmen feel they are in the top 10%.

Those are the poll numbers. Concluding, however, that most Freshmen are in the top 10% makes no sense.






Now that is true. Just look at The Boston Herald vs The Boston Globe which is owned by the N.Y. Times and has been hemmoraging money for the last five years or so.
Herald columnist Howie Carr calls the Globe, "The boring broadsheet." And that's true, you try to read it and the ads are the best thing in there! It's a boring pos.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 3/12/2010 8:47:29 PM >


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RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! - 3/12/2010 8:46:54 PM   
TreasureKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Except the center isn't what anyone thinks it is, the center is the center. If everyone's a conservative then the center is conservative. If most people are conservative then the center is still conservative.

Denial doesn't change reality.



I do understand what you trying to convey, Sanity, and I don't disagree... but I don't believe the discussion at hand is in relation to the bell curve.  I think we're looking more at defining the categories themselves rather than establishing the population median within those categories.

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RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! - 3/12/2010 8:47:12 PM   
Musicmystery


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Like on page one----let's keep on point.

We already have media threads.

This is about moderates.

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RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! - 3/12/2010 8:50:02 PM   
Sanity


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Is that how you punt, you cut and paste a long non-sequitor from Wikipedia?


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RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! - 3/12/2010 8:54:39 PM   
Musicmystery


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OK, I take back what respect you earned earlier.

You believe the world is only two pat packages, conservatives and liberals. No other possibilities. Nothing in between. Nothing moderate--oh, I forgot, moderate is conservative to you. The definitions of conservative don't even matter to you.

Your world is a simplistic place. It also doesn't exist.

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RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! - 3/12/2010 8:55:32 PM   
Sanity


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I'm just welcoming myself to the center Treasure... keeping with the spirit of the thread, is all. 


quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
I do understand what you trying to convey, Sanity, and I don't disagree... but I don't believe the discussion at hand is in relation to the bell curve.  I think we're looking more at defining the categories themselves rather than establishing the population median within those categories.



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RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! - 3/12/2010 8:55:51 PM   
kdsub


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Sanity that 2009 Detailed Ideology poll is useless and irrelevant... There is only one statistic that counts…the number of congressmen of one party or the other.

Right now you cannot refute that there are more liberals then conservatives…would you not agree? So that means there were more people voting liberal in the last major Presidential election. That means the country had more liberal voters than conservative

Of course it may change but for now the Democrats can crow and you cannot claim a majority of any kind despite silly polls that mean nothing.

Butch


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RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! - 3/12/2010 8:56:00 PM   
Musicmystery


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Middle

adj.

1. Equally distant from extremes or limits; central: the middle point on a line.
2. Being at neither one extreme nor the other; intermediate.
3.
1. Intervening between an earlier and a later period of time; being an intermediate part of a sequence or series: the middle years.
2. Middle Geology. Of or relating to a division of geologic time between an earlier and a later division: the Middle Paleozoic.
4. Middle Of or relating to a stage in the development of a language or literature between earlier and later stages: Middle Swedish.
5. Grammar. Of, relating to, or being a verb form or voice in which the subject both performs and is affected by the action specified.

n.

1. An area or a point equidistant between extremes; a center: the middle of a circle.
2. Something intermediate between extremes; a mean.
3. The interior portion: the middle of a chain.
4. The middle part of the human body; the waist.
5. Logic. A middle term.
6. Grammar.
1. The middle voice.
2. A verb form in the middle voice.

http://www.answers.com/topic/middle

Moderate
adj.

1. Being within reasonable limits; not excessive or extreme: a moderate price.
2. Not violent or subject to extremes; mild or calm; temperate: a moderate climate.
3.
1. Of medium or average quantity or extent.
2. Of limited or average quality; mediocre.
4. Opposed to radical or extreme views or measures, especially in politics or religion.

n.
One who holds or champions moderate views or opinions, especially in politics or religion.

http://www.answers.com/topic/moderate

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/12/2010 8:57:29 PM >

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RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! - 3/12/2010 9:00:26 PM   
InvisibleBlack


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- FR -

I think that when using terms like "center" or "moderate" you are mixing two very disparate groups:

1) Those who simply do not care or have no position or are not confrontational - they would not define themselves as "liberal" or"conservative" or whatever - but if instead asked to define their beliefs would be unable to express anything, to clearly articulate their ideology or guidelines because they have none.

2) Those who views are a "compromise" or blend between extreme positions. Someone who believed in abortion being legal in cases of rape, incest, medical necessity, etc.but not otherwise would not be on the far-right, but neither on the far left. Someone who believed that life started in the second trimester and so abortion in the first trimester would be fine would fall "somewhere in the middle". Likewise - the idea that the government should pay for what it spends (i.e. no budget deficits or national debt at all) except for in times of emergency (war, Depression, etc.) when extreme measures might be called for and should pay for its spending through a combination of taxes and budget cuts would be "center" of the two extreme positions.

I don't know that there are actual ideological positions that would define the "center". By its very nature, holding a solid ideological belief (whether Catholicism or nihilism or pacifism or laissez-faire capitalism or Communism or whatever) would automatically mean that one could not be in the center.

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RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! - 3/12/2010 9:01:55 PM   
Musicmystery


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This is from the Gallup poll Sanity is referencing:

"Conservatives continue to outnumber moderates and liberals"

Even his own source doesn't claim conservatives are the moderates.

quote:

By its very nature, holding a solid ideological belief (whether Catholicism or nihilism or pacifism or laissez-faire capitalism or Communism or whatever) would automatically mean that one could not be in the center.

Exactly.





< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/12/2010 9:03:30 PM >

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RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! - 3/12/2010 9:03:03 PM   
Sanity


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No, the elections can be swung by a variety of factors independent of the political ideologies of the electorate.


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Sanity that 2009 Detailed Ideology poll is useless and irrelevant... There is only one statistic that counts…the number of congressmen of one party or the other.

Right now you cannot refute that there are more liberals then conservatives…would you not agree? So that means there were more people voting liberal in the last major Presidential election. That means the country had more liberal voters than conservative

Of course it may change but for now the Democrats can crow and you cannot claim a majority of any kind despite silly polls that mean nothing.

Butch



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RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! - 3/12/2010 9:04:08 PM   
Musicmystery


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All those Obama conservatives.

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RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! - 3/12/2010 9:05:09 PM   
Sanity


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Don't get all pissy and pouty now, you fringe far left types are still welcome. It takes all kinds, after all.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

OK, I take back what respect you earned earlier.

You believe the world is only two pat packages, conservatives and liberals. No other possibilities. Nothing in between. Nothing moderate--oh, I forgot, moderate is conservative to you. The definitions of conservative don't even matter to you.

Your world is a simplistic place. It also doesn't exist.


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RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! - 3/12/2010 9:05:15 PM   
InvisibleBlack


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Oh. And as an aside - being in the "center" is not necessarily a good thing. Sometimes an "extreme" view is actually correct. Most people today would claim that the "divine right of kings" is a load of tripe. Back in the old days, a "center" view, that maybe the king is only "divinely inspired while being virtuous" would be just as wrong as outright divine right and the group claiming the king is "just another man like all the rest" (an extreme view to be sure!) would actually be correct.

If you say the sky is blue and I say the sky is red then I'm wrong and you're right and the "center" view that it's purple is just as useless as the extreme red view.

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RE: Please welcome Sanity to the Center! - 3/12/2010 9:07:18 PM   
Sanity


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Obama made a lot of fiscally conservative noises while out on the campaign trail, pretty words and hollow promises which were just words on his teleprompter screen and nothing more. And he claimed to be a social moderate, which he isn't.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

All those Obama conservatives.


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