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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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Some collage kids do, but there are a lot of others who act just like mm says. They scrape by with as little effort as possible and then whine when they don't get good grades. They don't seem to care that their parents have put out a small fortune to get them into the class and can't be bothered to even sit through the whole thing. They seem to think it is owed to them for some reason.

Do you think this is new? I mean, don't you think that kids have ALWAYS complained?

I think one would get a different view if they saw 3rd or 4th year students as opposed to freshmans also. There are always those who do not adapt the first year...

Like I said... there will always be those who have parents who spoiled them, but I do not think it was the public school system that gave them the sense of entitlement... their parents played a part in that too.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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Thousands, julia. I know thousands of them. Literally.

You are describing a few students, not the norm.

So if you are a professor you are telling me that 1000s of them complain to you, few earned or merited being where they are...

I pity you, sounds like the school you teach at sucks balls, this is not the case where I go to school, although our undergrads in my department are pretty special people

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ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I'd still be interested in hearing what's "center right" vs. "conservative" vs. "hard right" from you folks on the right.

If you are so interested in hearing what we think, Muse, perhaps you should consider chilling a bit with the insults and personal attacks?  Just because the PTB around here have decided (rightly, I think) that "fuck you" is sometimes a legitimate and appropriate response, doesn't mean you need to throw it anyone who challenges your position.  Get laid.


"Moderate" is a word for describing alcohol intake, not a political stance.  In politics, it is like being "a little bit pregnant."  I'm a radical.  I get classified as "right/conservative," because on a general level I have come to a place where I believe that a gov't program is the worst way to do anything that isn't virtually impossible otherwise.  Once that threshold is crossed, I don't sound very conservative anymore.  Then I want it to work well, and be sustainable.

Something I noted in one of the replies was the notion that having some strong positions that fall under both umbrellas makes one a "centrist."  Bullshit.  It makes one a swing voter, depending on what is considered important on any given election day.  I am just as passionate about the beliefs of mine that would called liberal as I am for those that make liberals choke on their lattes.  How many people are willing to take a nice, moderate/centrist position on the death penalty, that we'll execute half the violent sexual predators we catch?

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Don't forget to throw out the 4% "No Opinion" who were weighted on the Liberal side now, and look at the numbers. The center of the population isn't between Conservatives and Liberals, its somewhere between Conservatives and Moderates, with Liberals being out on the fringe. Whats the word for those on the fringes?

Oh yes - "Extremists".

So now you are saying that people with no opinion are extremists?

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And you are somehow neglecting to point out there are more extremists on the right than the left... you are entertaining

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"Moderate" is a word for describing alcohol intake, not a political stance.  In politics, it is like being "a little bit pregnant."  I'm a radical.  I get classified as "right/conservative," because on a general level I have come to a place where I believe that a gov't program is the worst way to do anything that isn't virtually impossible otherwise.  Once that threshold is crossed, I don't sound very conservative anymore.  Then I want it to work well, and be sustainable.

Something I noted in one of the replies was the notion that having some strong positions that fall under both umbrellas makes one a "centrist."  Bullshit.  It makes one a swing voter, depending on what is considered important on any given election day.  I am just as passionate about the beliefs of mine that would called liberal as I am for those that make liberals choke on their lattes.  How many people are willing to take a nice, moderate/centrist position on the death penalty, that we'll execute half the violent sexual predators we catch?

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

When I talk of moderate Democrats, liberal Democrats, conservative Democrats, for example, these are not empty labels, but positions assignable to actual people and representatives. On health care, for example, moderate Democrats want an affordable compromise. Liberal Democrats want a public option--so strongly that they'll threaten to vote against any measure without it. Conservative Democrats oppose a public option--so strongly that they'll threaten to vote against any measure that contains it.

So when people talk about being "center-right," to the left of them should be moderate positions, center-left positions, liberal and very liberal positions--not just "liberal," and to their right should be "conservative" and "very conservative" positions. REAL positions that many real people hold, not possibilities like corporal punishment in schools that are not in fact being advocated.

The Gallup poll shows 40% of people identifying as conservative, 31% resisting the "very conservative" label. Why? What are these "very conservative positions they just can't support?

Then we've got a substantial chunk, 35%, more than a third, identifying as "moderate"--not liberal, and not conservative either. What are their positions? It's all fine to say labels don't mean anything, but clearly they do---especially when we talk about electing moderates, or voting out moderates. Look at conservative Republicans and their "rino" hunt--what about those moderates is the problem (although the hunters use the term liberal instead)?

And if you accept the poll results, only 21% are liberal, including the "very liberal"--roughly one fifth. This hardly paints a picture of left vs. right. Yet all the opposing views from the "center right" appear to be "liberal." Just going by numbers, just going by common sense when looking at sides and middles, clearly there's uncovered territory there.

Yet when asked, so far, the "center right"--go ahead and call it conservative if you like--can't (or won't) point to more conservative positions held by either people or their representatives. Guess what? If there's no one to the right of you, you are one end of the continuum. And if liberals are just a fifth on the end, almost twice as many moderates hold positions other than those "center right" positions that are not liberal, but moderate. Where do those distinctions stand?

That's my problem with center right. It sounds just like right wing conservative.

Or, as most people would use the term, perhaps this means the part of the moderate 35% toward the right side of that moderate group. OK. Then there should DEFINITELY be conservative positions too right for these people, along with moderate ones that lean left, then liberal.

In short---this "center right" designation is meaningless. It buys into the left/right paradigm by pretending the right IS the middle, and therefore there is no middle.

And that makes no sense--logically or to Gallup. It's a way to pretend conservative views are mainstream. They aren't. It's another way to pretend moderates don't exist.

If you're moderate, or center right, what's to your right? If nothing really, you aren't moderate, and you aren't center right. You're just conservative.

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

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but a philosophy class rather than a science class.

Here's the thing. It's not philosophy, but science.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


I agree with this....

If people have strong positions I would not call them "moderate" either

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ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

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but a philosophy class rather than a science class.

Here's the thing. It's not philosophy, but science.

Is it ... what type of science is evolution?  Applied science?  Experimental science?  Fundamental science?

While elements within evolution can fall into scientific discipline (such as anthropology) the whole of the theory of evolution cannot meet the criteria required for application of scientific method... an investigative method based on observation, deduction, hypothesizing, and experimentation.

Of course, creationism cannot conform to those requirements, either. Both require great leaps of faith.

If you believe that places me far to the right, then so be it.

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ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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Some collage kids do, but there are a lot of others who act just like mm says. They scrape by with as little effort as possible and then whine when they don't get good grades. They don't seem to care that their parents have put out a small fortune to get them into the class and can't be bothered to even sit through the whole thing. They seem to think it is owed to them for some reason.

Do you think this is new? I mean, don't you think that kids have ALWAYS complained?

I think one would get a different view if they saw 3rd or 4th year students as opposed to freshmans also. There are always those who do not adapt the first year...

Like I said... there will always be those who have parents who spoiled them, but I do not think it was the public school system that gave them the sense of entitlement... their parents played a part in that too.

OK. But that's not the position you started with, is it.

Your last sentence, though--sure, parents play a part, but that doesn't suddenly exonerate the schools.

Teaching is very, very different today than it was just three decades ago. Not all the changes are positive.

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“Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers.”

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


I agree with this....

If people have strong positions I would not call them "moderate" either

I think moderate should be defined as the political stand of the majority at any one point in time. This is the middle with the right and left wings more to the extreme positions on the issues. Believe me moderate Americans or any other nationality can have very strong positions at times.

Trying to pigeonhole the majority as right left or swing makes no sense to me... Their stand is just the middle, moderate, majority stand.

Butch

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What is an extremist, julia.

If there are more PEOPLE on the right then by definition they're the mainstream, and not "extreme" at all.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


2. I am not a public school advocate, but I do not think the reason they are failing is because of some "liberal agenda". I think that the reasons schools are not turning out good students are widely different depending on the school and the state... so how we can argue all public schools turning out a certain type of student is really generalizing. I do not like compulsory education that teaches our kids not to think creatively and focuses on the McDonalds service sector economy... a nation of expendable middle managers... it really is very gross.

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Here, we take what we're handed and set about preparing them for the real world. And, with first year students especially, that can be a bumpy ride for some.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


Which changes over time as to where that "middle" is

For example, who knows, Sanity might be a moderate conservative... he comes off far more extreme in my eyes because his attitude is extreme, it makes me think he hasn't a moderate bone in his body...

And I am not picking on Sanity, I am just pointing out that one can seemingly hold a "moderate" position, yet be extreme in advocating for it (although from those I know, Sanity is FAR right, and there are lots of conservatives in California I know that are "moderately" so)

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ORIGINAL: kdsub

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


Which changes over time as to where that "middle" is

For example, who knows, Sanity might be a moderate conservative... he comes off far more extreme in my eyes because his attitude is extreme, it makes me think he hasn't a moderate bone in his body...

And I am not picking on Sanity, I am just pointing out that one can seemingly hold a "moderate" position, yet be extreme in advocating for it (although from those I know, Sanity is FAR right, and there are lots of conservatives in California I know that are "moderately" so)

Maybe he just likes to argue...defend extreme positions for the fun of it all and see our reactions...He is pretty good at it.

Butch