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RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 2:25:58 PM

subfever

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

Again, problems as a whole, start at home. There is only so much we can do to try to change the effect of a fucked up homelife.

In your opinion, what is the root cause of all these dysfunctional homes?

Well, at the risk of being burned at the stake-lol.....

I think it is the deterioration of society as a whole. Nothing to believe in, folks afraid to discipline children, kids who are not afraid of authority at all and the fact that so many families are in the nth generation of welfare.

First of all, I hope no one here is of the motivation to burn you or any teacher at the stake for trying to do the right thing. Teachers have a tough and often thankless job.

Yes, society has deteriorated. Many folks have nothing to believe in. Disciplinary actions have changed over the years. Fewer kids today fear authority.

So you and I have common ground here.

quote:

I hear so much about we have to uplift the kids, make them have self esteem.

Are you in disagreement with this?

quote:

If I were the king of the world, I would try kickin their asses, making them afraid of the consequences if they fucked up, and tell them they are welcome to self esteem when they grow up and mature enough to get it on their own.

I can't agree with you here. A healthy self-esteem needs to be nurtured from a young age. If I were the king of the world, I would create a system that education would be proud to reflect.

quote:

Course, I was raised in tha south and I think fear is a great motivator to keep children on the straight and narrow. It has worked in my family for a long long time.

See? You're a product of your environment, just like these "problematic" youngsters are... not that I agree that greed and fear should be the foundation of education.

(in reply to JstAnotherSub)

Post #: 181

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 2:31:16 PM

Moonhead

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No, they're not. Unfortunately, over here we've had the working class more or less dismantled over the last thirty years, and turned into a permanent underclass instead. I really don't think bringing kids into a hideous trap like that is a good thing. Some parents will make the best of the situation and raise a few more or less functional people who might get to make something out of themselves. Others won't even try, and a few go so far the other way reading through a file about the shit they've put their children through is physically painful. Those are the people who shouldn't be allowed to breed. Sorry.

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(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 182

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 2:39:48 PM

juliaoceania

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

No, they're not. Unfortunately, over here we've had the working class more or less dismantled over the last thirty years, and turned into a permanent underclass instead. I really don't think bringing kids into a hideous trap like that is a good thing. Some parents will make the best of the situation and raise a few more or less functional people who might get to make something out of themselves. Others won't even try, and a few go so far the other way reading through a file about the shit they've put their children through is physically painful. Those are the people who shouldn't be allowed to breed. Sorry.

As long as we have a capitalist system the underclass will continue, and it is as old as the slums that built up around factories are...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 183

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 2:42:08 PM

Moonhead

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Very true. I always find it offensive that you get the plutocracy complaining about wellfare spongers and whatever taxes they can't weasel out of paying going for that when they want the biggest underclass they can manage to drive down the minimum wage and shut all this whining about working conditions.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 184

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 2:43:17 PM

Level

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quote:

Well, at the risk of being burned at the stake-lol.....

I think it is the deterioration of society as a whole. Nothing to believe in, folks afraid to discipline children, kids who are not afraid of authority at all and the fact that so many families are in the nth generation of welfare.

A lot of truth there.

Our court handles truancy cases for three schools. We get almost NO cases from two of them, and sometimes get 10 or 15 cases a week from the third, which is the poorest one, and most welfare-addled one. However, even parents with decent jobs get called in, so what gives? A lot of it (NOT all) is indeed culture, that education is not something to be cherished, or worked for. A lot of it is parents trying to be friends with their kids, instead of parents.

You and subfever are both right, in that there needs to be respect and fear of consequences, and there needs to be a better job of esteem being built, at a young age.

< Message edited by Level -- 3/14/2010 2:49:15 PM >

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(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 185

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 2:45:15 PM

subfever

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

Again, problems as a whole, start at home. There is only so much we can do to try to change the effect of a fucked up homelife.

In your opinion, what is the root cause of all these dysfunctional homes?

People who shouldn't be trusted to dogsit, never mind raise children, breeding loads of kids they can't afford to look after?

And what Moon said....

I'm sorry guys, but I can't find any common ground here at all.

These dysfunctional homes are symptoms of much larger problems. They're a reflection upon our economic structure.

If you took anyone of the "horrible" parents, sobered them up, and spent time really talking to them, you'll find they're just people who have become angry, frustrated, lost, and hopeless after unduring years, and sometimes a lifetime of failure.

They'd be no different than you or me, if they'd passed through the same environment for the same length of time as we did.

(in reply to JstAnotherSub)

Post #: 186

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 2:48:21 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

Well, at the risk of being burned at the stake-lol.....

I think it is the deterioration of society as a whole. Nothing to believe in, folks afraid to discipline children, kids who are not afraid of authority at all and the fact that so many families are in the nth generation of welfare.

A lot of truth there.

Our court handles truancy cases for three schools. We get almost NO cases from two of them, and sometimes get 10 or 15 cases a week from the third, which is the poorest one, and most welfare-addled one. However, even parents with decent jobs get called in, so what gives? A lot of it (NOT all) is indeed culture, that education is not something to be cherished, or worked for. A lot of it is parents trying to be friends with their kids, instead of parents.

You and rob are both right, in that there needs to be respect and fear of consequences, and there needs to be a better job of esteem being built, at a young age.

I have known quite a few poor people, some even welfare recipients... I have to say that there is this attitude that parents don't love their kids because they do not have the tools to raise them successfully. It is a lot easier to raise kids with two parents in the home. It is easier to raise kids when there isn't a lot of street socialization going on. It is hard to raise kids when English is your second language or you do not even know English and your children have to translate for you... it also gives those kids a lot of power in those families...

Some of the things we have found that work, giving kids options of where they can go when they are not in school... clubs and groups for them to have good clean fun with.... etc.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 187

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 3:00:44 PM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever
If you took anyone of the "horrible" parents, sobered them up, and spent time really talking to them, you'll find they're just people who have become angry, frustrated, lost, and hopeless after unduring years, and sometimes a lifetime of failure.

They'd be no different than you or me, if they'd passed through the same environment for the same length of time as we did.

This is true, but it still doesn't put them in a good state of mind to be raising kids, does it?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to subfever)

Post #: 188

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 3:01:28 PM

JstAnotherSub

Posts: 6174
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fast reply

I think we all know people who have risen above poverty and done well. The son raised in domestic violence who makes the best dad....the daughter of the alcoholic mom who never takes a drink and works harder to get where she wants to go.

I really do not think we disagree as much as we think we do. I don't think fear and greed should be the foundation of education.

I do think that there is no one way to raise a child. Some need nothing but praise, some raising an eyebrow will work, and some need a foot up their ass. There may be one of each in the same family. The key is having parents who are wise enough to tell the difference, and work to find what will help their child the most.

Too many parents run to school if their child gets in trouble, and do nothing but take up for the child, without bothering to hear the facts. Doing this in front of the child (and man that happens so much) makes the school lose authority, much as mom and dad arguing about punishment in front of a child makes both of them lose authority.

I get what each of you is saying, but what I see on a daily basis is folks that are dumb as bricks can spit out kids quicker than rabbots it seems. And that does not make for great schools. Too much time is spent just trying to help the child survive.

I hope some of this makes sense. As ya can tell by now, I am not a teacher-lol.

Im a cafeteria manager who spent a few years sub teaching and working in cafeterias and after school programs before testing and going to manager school. I still work after school program 4 days a week, becauser I love the kids. I love to hear their stories, happy or sad, and I cry with them and rejoice with them, That is all I can do to try to help my little corner of the world.

As fot teachers, the red tape and bullshit they have to wade through before even being allowed to teach-well....it is one reason that some folks who would be the best teachers in the world leave the profession.

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(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 189

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 3:20:01 PM

subfever

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Joined: 5/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever
If you took anyone of the "horrible" parents, sobered them up, and spent time really talking to them, you'll find they're just people who have become angry, frustrated, lost, and hopeless after unduring years, and sometimes a lifetime of failure.

They'd be no different than you or me, if they'd passed through the same environment for the same length of time as we did.

This is true, but it still doesn't put them in a good state of mind to be raising kids, does it?

No, it doesn't (assuming you are referring to high-end familial dysfunction such as chronic alcohol/drug/abuse issues). This is an example where treating the immediate symptom is warranted, for the benefit of the children.

But at some point soon, we need to address the cause. In our current system, our resources to address these symptoms are almost exhausted.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 190

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 3:29:51 PM

Moonhead

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Possibly, but (as has been said already) in a lot of cases the symptoms are serious enough to warrant treating independently of the cause. They don't refuse to give somebody with lung cancer a dose of radiotherapy if it's been metastising and got into their lymph system, do they?
Then there's the whole question of whether the people who like the system the way it is will ever allow the cause of the problems to be treated. Doing anything about the religious influence on education is bound to be career suicide for any politician who tried that, to pick the most obvious example.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to subfever)

Post #: 191

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 3:56:47 PM

subfever

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quote:

Then there's the whole question of whether the people who like the system the way it is will ever allow the cause of the problems to be treated.

And herein lies the crux of the matter. Those who perceive themselves invested in the status-quo are more concerned about themselves, than the collective good of humanity.

And this is true from the top of the food chain, all the way on down to the 2 and 3 chip players who erroneously perceive that the enemy is the 0 and 1 chip players.

The system is the problem folks... not the people.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 192

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 4:06:35 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

I hear so much about we have to uplift the kids, make them have self esteem. If I were the king of the world, I would try kickin their asses, making them afraid of the consequences if they fucked up, and tell them they are welcome to self esteem when they grow up and mature enough to get it on their own.

AMEN!

Its how i was raised. Its how our parents and grandparents were raised. But suddenly its not good enough for our children?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to JstAnotherSub)

Post #: 193

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 4:10:58 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

I can't agree with you here. A healthy self-esteem needs to be nurtured from a young age. If I were the king of the world, I would create a system that education would be proud to reflect.

You seem to be under the belief that the school system is at fault for the lack of self esteem, for the problems with education as well as later in life. If that is your position, can you please explain how you came to that conclusion?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to subfever)

Post #: 194

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 4:13:21 PM

subfever

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I hear so much about we have to uplift the kids, make them have self esteem. If I were the king of the world, I would try kickin their asses, making them afraid of the consequences if they fucked up, and tell them they are welcome to self esteem when they grow up and mature enough to get it on their own.

AMEN!

Its how i was raised. Its how our parents and grandparents were raised. But suddenly its not good enough for our children?

Good grief... so you want to perpetuate fear as the primary motivator of our children, to appease tradition?

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 195

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 4:18:34 PM

tazzygirl

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Nothing to do with tradition. If your kid takes a lollipop from the store... shoplifting... what do you do?

I know what i did.. and what my parents did... what would you do/have you done in that same situation?

Sadly, children fear nothing... and i do mean nothing. Except being ostracized by their peers. And so many parents are attempting to be their childrens friends... wrong again. Children have enough friends... they need parents.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to subfever)

Post #: 196

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 4:31:17 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Nothing to do with tradition. If your kid takes a lollipop from the store... shoplifting... what do you do?

I know what i did.. and what my parents did... what would you do/have you done in that same situation?

Sadly, children fear nothing... and i do mean nothing. Except being ostracized by their peers. And so many parents are attempting to be their childrens friends... wrong again. Children have enough friends... they need parents.

Funny, I was not raised with a lot of fear and I didn't steal anything. My son was not raised as you suggest and yet he isn't a thief.

My parents did not want to raise me to be petrified of authority, and I certainly raised my son to question authority....and I would say your analysis of most children is sadly mistaken, is that how you view your own kids? My son feared disappointing me far more than he feared my wrath, but then I was always a soft touch and he loves that about me... he even respects it.

Not all kids are adversaries to their parents, most kids want to please them even more than they want to please their friends... I assume you are talking about teens...

Like I said, I do not know what universe you inhabit where kids are all out breaking laws, dissing on their parents, and generally only care what their peers think, but it is not the same universe I inhabit... thank God! I adore young people... they are our future, and there is nothing wrong with them, but there is a hell of a lot wrong with viewing them as the enemy.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 197

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 5:01:32 PM

tazzygirl

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Joined: 10/12/2007
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Wow, you are a touch bitchy tonight.

My son was raised by me and my parents... bless them and their advice. his cousin talked him into stealing a fishing lure. i found it. the cousin lied through his teeth. my son did not. we returned it to the store, he appologized to the store manager, paid for the lure, then had to throw it away. when we got home, lets just say he had trouble sitting for a time. no anger, just disappointment... a disappointment he felt deeply.

as far as my relationship with my son.. it is amazing! there is nothing he cannot, or wont, discuss with me, including drug use and sex related questions. What he learned from me was honesty is always the first requirement, integrity the second, and the desire to work for whatever he gets in life the third.

Btw, julia, you are not the only home schooling parent on these boards. i also home schooled mine. for far different reasons. his education consisted of the fundementals of reading, writing, math and science. we quickly realized he had an affinity for computers. he is now 24 and working towards a degree in computer programming and security.

my only requirement for his education is that he makes enough at what he chooses to do to support himself. i personally find it sad that you would wish anyone to live on grants while pursuing a career that may never pan out for that person.

i still havent discovered what your issue is exactly with schools. you seem to be utilizing the system you state you hate for your own benefit, yet decry the notion that you are "forced" to do so.

that part still confuses me.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 198

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 5:06:39 PM

subfever

Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Nothing to do with tradition. If your kid takes a lollipop from the store... shoplifting... what do you do?

I know what i did.. and what my parents did... what would you do/have you done in that same situation?

Sadly, children fear nothing... and i do mean nothing. Except being ostracized by their peers. And so many parents are attempting to be their childrens friends... wrong again. Children have enough friends... they need parents.

JustAnotherSub made a reference to kicking kids in the ass to teach consequences, to which you agreed... emphasizing that this worked fine for your parents and grandparents, and therefore should work fine for you too.

If a child steals a lollipop, why not just teach the child the negative consequences of his actions? In the current system that we live in, a store loses money when people take items without paying for them. When a business loses money, it risks going out of business, putting the employees out of work, subjecting them and their families to suffer. Talk about the children of these suffering families. Ask him what if this happened to our family. Bring the child back to the store with the stolen item, have him apologize and then pay for it with his own money.

Ideally, we want the child to comprehend and be sorry for his actions, not for getting caught. No need for violence. It sends the wrong message, even if a verbal message was included with the punishment.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 199

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 5:11:02 PM

tazzygirl

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Joined: 10/12/2007
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And yet when the concept of finance being taught to children was brought up... the response was.. how dare we! Sounds a bit... ummm... yeah... not gonna say it.. but you know what i mean.

You many also want to read my post to julia about my son and my own history with such things. I was hard on him, i was not harsh. Nor did i coddle. Nor did i allow him to use his learning disability as an excuse as i have seen so many other parents do.

Children need to learn consequences. Telling a child that a family suffers because of his actions wont go far especially as they grow older and learn the truth about coporations and finance. There is also such a thing as a healthy level of fear.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to subfever)

Post #: 200

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