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RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 6:14:21 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

No one "got personal". I simply stated my confusion in hopes you would clear things up. You have been extremely muddy about what you believe the true problems are, or how you would solve them.

If thats personal... If its too personal asking about information you bring up in a thread.. then dont offer that information.

Step back from defensive mode and realize not everyone is out to attack you.

No I have not been muddy about it... I have been extremely concrete about it...

We have this thing called a public school system. For the most part it continues to exist as a way to educate people to take McJobs... this is increasingly the case. At a time when employers consider a BA like a high school diploma used to be and an MA the same as a BA used to be, one needs an MA to even get their foot in the door for a good career. There are few career paths these days open to our young people, colleges are shrinking their enrollments, more students are vying for less spots, and they are tracking kids into either McJobs, or into college prep classes.

The entire system is built to teach people to hold jobs that they may or may not be qualified to take, depending on how they were tracked. There is less money for sports, less money for art, less money for everything that does not make people good little middle managers... why? Because there is an economic value on that for those that will employ them. Is that all education should be reduced to?

The reason the system is the way it is, tightly regimented, highly hierarchical is because that is the way workplaces are designed... We are preparing our kids to be disciplined workers for the man... Now perhaps that does not bother you, it bothers me. Many of those kids are ill suited for that life... so we drug them because they can't "focus"... and I think that is tragic.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 221

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 6:15:13 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
And these would be the people who are resisting the status quo because it impacted them and they decided it needed to be changed....

I think that the public school system has damaged a lot of people.

This is quite an exaggeration.

People are noting that schools aren't achieving what we'd like to see them achieved. So they propose and initiate programs to better address student achievement.

The "damaged" part is your take, having nothing to do with "resisting the status quo." People are trying to improve and/or supplement the system we have in place.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 222

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 6:16:12 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And i was first introduced to voting in 4th grade. I dont see either as wrong.

quote:

There is also such a thing as a healthy level of fear.

quote:

Indeed, a child should understand fear in terms of risks to personal safety and health. I do not agree that fear of physical punishment is the healthy and ideal method. YMMV.

Why not? Is that not a consequence one can face when one becomes an adult?

Soory tazzy,if I understand your statement here,and I think I do.....I can't disagree more strongly.Fear as a motivational tool in raising one's child is not in my opinion a defensible stance.I'm proud to say I never saw the need to raise my hand in anger nor to use physical punishement as a cold calculating is=nstrument of instruction.
IMO fear teaches lessons alright....the wrong ones!

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 223

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 6:17:30 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

colleges are shrinking their enrollments

This isn't true either, except at selected schools.

In general, private schools might cut back a bit in a recession, while community college enrollment is up quite significantly.

Overall, more students attend college than ever before.
http://nces.ed.gov/fastFacts/display.asp?id=98

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/14/2010 6:19:54 PM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 224

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 6:17:41 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

Allow me to ask you this... why do we send our children to school? Is it to learn how to toss a football, paint a picture, or to learn how to read, write and do math? I wont even go into the BA vs BS debate.

This is why i asked earlier and will ask again....

What is it you expect from a school system?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 225

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 6:21:00 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

The "damaged" part is your take, having nothing to do with "resisting the status quo." People are trying to improve and/or supplement the system we have in place.

I have seen documentary after documentary on broken schools that are ill funded and little more than prisons.. these schools are often largely minority, in the poorest sections of the inner city, and while they did not cause all the problems of the communities they exist in, they have done little to remediate the problems of them either. Now these schools often do not have enough desks for the students, much less textbooks for them, and yes.. I would call these institutions "damaging". There are other ways that public schools can be damaging to students.. but there is one glaring example and it is not an exaggeration at all

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 226

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 6:21:11 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

To challenge my child,to open up a world of ideas.....nothing more,nothing less!
I guess I was lucky....in my case,or rather my son's case this was accomplished quite nicely!

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 227

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 6:21:37 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

And i was first introduced to voting in 4th grade. I dont see either as wrong.

quote:

There is also such a thing as a healthy level of fear.

quote:

Indeed, a child should understand fear in terms of risks to personal safety and health. I do not agree that fear of physical punishment is the healthy and ideal method. YMMV.

Why not? Is that not a consequence one can face when one becomes an adult?

Soory tazzy,if I understand your statement here,and I think I do.....I can't disagree more strongly.Fear as a motivational tool in raising one's child is not in my opinion a defensible stance.I'm proud to say I never saw the need to raise my hand in anger nor to use physical punishement as a cold calculating is=nstrument of instruction.
IMO fear teaches lessons alright....the wrong ones!

And i have no difficulty agreeing to disagree on this point, mike. However, physical punishment can be the result of most crimes committed.

Now, i never raised my hand in anger... but i did punish.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 228

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 6:22:32 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

colleges are shrinking their enrollments

This isn't true either, except at selected schools.

In general, private schools might cut back a bit in a recession, while community college enrollment is up quite significantly.

Overall, more students attend college than ever before.
http://nces.ed.gov/fastFacts/display.asp?id=98

It is true statewide in California....and we educate a lot of people nationally as well as internationally

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 229

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 6:23:47 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

I have seen documentary after documentary on broken schools that are ill funded and little more than prisons

Cite any one of them.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 230

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 6:25:30 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

It is true statewide in California

It isn't.
http://www.cpec.ca.gov/PressRelease/press092099.asp

http://californiawatch.org/data/almost-half-high-school-graduates-enroll-public-colleges

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/14/2010 6:26:45 PM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 231

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 6:26:17 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Allow me to ask you this... why do we send our children to school? Is it to learn how to toss a football, paint a picture, or to learn how to read, write and do math? I wont even go into the BA vs BS debate.

This is why i asked earlier and will ask again....

What is it you expect from a school system?

I expect kids to be emotionally safe there, as well as physically so...

I expect children to get lots of fresh air and mental/physical stimulation

I expect that if a child does not thrive under a certain regiment that the adults entrusted with that child find other methods besides mass drugging to best serve the child.

I expect that students get opportunities to engage their world beyond the classroom in differing ways and that if they have talent for it to be encouraged and expressed in some productive way.

We could learn a lot from European education

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 232

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 6:28:27 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

It is true statewide in California

It isn't.
http://www.cpec.ca.gov/PressRelease/press092099.asp

http://californiawatch.org/data/almost-half-high-school-graduates-enroll-public-colleges

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2010-01-14-college-admissions_N.htm

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 233

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 6:31:47 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

And I would of course defend every parents right to raise their child as they see fit(within reason of course)but when "punishment" equates to physically striking a child....It's my opinion the parent has lost control.I had more than a few occasions to "punish" my son...but being a child of abuse none of these incidents ever were allowed to reach the point where I considered striking my child...and yes that,for me,includes what is referred to as a spanking.
As far as I was concerned there was always a better more effective "teaching" tool at my disposal...be it loss of privileges,confiscation of toys,grounding....or just his knowledge that I was somehow upset with him...Now I'm not looking for any argument here or to try and paint others who perhaps disagree with me in a bad light.This was and is just my opinion and it was colored by my own childhood and a not to unreasonable concern that the second time I hit my child might just be a little easier to do than the first...and so on and so forth....I parented from a fear of being my father and so had to challenge myself to be his polar opposite...it worked for me and I am proud to say has worked very well for my son....a young man who I couldn't be prouder of.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 234

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 6:34:22 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Allow me to ask you this... why do we send our children to school? Is it to learn how to toss a football, paint a picture, or to learn how to read, write and do math? I wont even go into the BA vs BS debate.

This is why i asked earlier and will ask again....

What is it you expect from a school system?

I expect kids to be emotionally safe there, as well as physically so...

I expect children to get lots of fresh air and mental/physical stimulation

I expect that if a child does not thrive under a certain regiment that the adults entrusted with that child find other methods besides mass drugging to best serve the child.

I expect that students get opportunities to engage their world beyond the classroom in differing ways and that if they have talent for it to be encouraged and expressed in some productive way.

We could learn a lot from European education

The physically safe, without a doubt. you mentioned emotionally, please expand.

Do you believe mass drugging is truly what is happening? In the 90's, i may have agreed. I dont see this as a trend anymore though.

I expect that students get opportunities to engage their world beyond the classroom in differing ways and that if they have talent for it to be encouraged and expressed in some productive way.

In what ways beyond the classroom? Would these things entail more funds? If so, where would the funds come from?

Who defines productive?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 235

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 6:36:09 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

And I would of course defend every parents right to raise their child as they see fit(within reason of course)but when "punishment" equates to physically striking a child....It's my opinion the parent has lost control.I had more than a few occasions to "punish" my son...but being a child of abuse none of these incidents ever were allowed to reach the point where I considered striking my child...and yes that,for me,includes what is referred to as a spanking.
As far as I was concerned there was always a better more effective "teaching" tool at my disposal...be it loss of privileges,confiscation of toys,grounding....or just his knowledge that I was somehow upset with him...Now I'm not looking for any argument here or to try and paint others who perhaps disagree with me in a bad light.This was and is just my opinion and it was colored by my own childhood and a not to unreasonable concern that the second time I hit my child might just be a little easier to do than the first...and so on and so forth....I parented from a fear of being my father and so had to challenge myself to be his polar opposite...it worked for me and I am proud to say has worked very well for my son....a young man who I couldn't be prouder of.

I agree that people should raise their kids the way they see fit... kids tend to make it through no matter what their parents do

I also did not want to be a spanker. I had very few of them, and I gave very few of them... although I did spank him once or twice, it felt completely wrong to me, and I thought there had to be a better way, luckily my mother modeled one for me to emulate.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 236

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 6:37:02 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

And I would of course defend every parents right to raise their child as they see fit(within reason of course)but when "punishment" equates to physically striking a child....It's my opinion the parent has lost control.I had more than a few occasions to "punish" my son...but being a child of abuse none of these incidents ever were allowed to reach the point where I considered striking my child...and yes that,for me,includes what is referred to as a spanking.
As far as I was concerned there was always a better more effective "teaching" tool at my disposal...be it loss of privileges,confiscation of toys,grounding....or just his knowledge that I was somehow upset with him...Now I'm not looking for any argument here or to try and paint others who perhaps disagree with me in a bad light.This was and is just my opinion and it was colored by my own childhood and a not to unreasonable concern that the second time I hit my child might just be a little easier to do than the first...and so on and so forth....I parented from a fear of being my father and so had to challenge myself to be his polar opposite...it worked for me and I am proud to say has worked very well for my son....a young man who I couldn't be prouder of.

Mike, no one is judging you, as you said, you were a child of abuse. i was not. my son is not. i do not equate 5 swats or less... for a total of 4 spankings over his childhood, to equate to abuse. you may. its all perception.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 237

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 6:37:36 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

It's an anecdotal list, not a comprehensive data list, but just the same, it says what I mentioned earlier, that while some are cutting, community colleges are bursting at the seams.

We haven't cut enrollment here. We've had an increase in applications steadily over the past decade. But then, we have international programs ramping up too. I'm not sure what percentage of our enrollment that is. I just teach the ones that show up for class the first day.

A few related links--
http://www.nextstudent.com/student-loan-blog/blogs/sample_weblog/archive/2009/04/02/15781.aspx
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/education/higher_education_institutions_and_enrollment.html
http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2010/02/27/4646364.htm

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/14/2010 6:40:27 PM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 238

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 6:42:03 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

And I would of course defend every parents right to raise their child as they see fit(within reason of course)but when "punishment" equates to physically striking a child....It's my opinion the parent has lost control.I had more than a few occasions to "punish" my son...but being a child of abuse none of these incidents ever were allowed to reach the point where I considered striking my child...and yes that,for me,includes what is referred to as a spanking.
As far as I was concerned there was always a better more effective "teaching" tool at my disposal...be it loss of privileges,confiscation of toys,grounding....or just his knowledge that I was somehow upset with him...Now I'm not looking for any argument here or to try and paint others who perhaps disagree with me in a bad light.This was and is just my opinion and it was colored by my own childhood and a not to unreasonable concern that the second time I hit my child might just be a little easier to do than the first...and so on and so forth....I parented from a fear of being my father and so had to challenge myself to be his polar opposite...it worked for me and I am proud to say has worked very well for my son....a young man who I couldn't be prouder of.

Mike, no one is judging you, as you said, you were a child of abuse. i was not. my son is not. i do not equate 5 swats or less... for a total of 4 spankings over his childhood, to equate to abuse. you may. its all perception.

Tazzy, please I went out of my way to try to express that I was giving my own opinion.....honest I wasn't judging you nor any other posters "parenting" skills...just offering my views...I'm sorry you saw my post in such a light....believe me it wasn't meant to come off that way

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 239

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 6:43:00 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

you mentioned emotionally, please expand.

I do not think kids should be bullied at school. I remember seeing kids bullied, and my son related the same to me. He is a lot like me, take seeing other people treated like shit rather personally and defend other people, even if it puts a target on my back...unfortunately teachers often turn a blind eye to such behavior and do not stop it because they think it is just kids being kids.

quote:

Do you believe mass drugging is truly what is happening? In the 90's, i may have agreed. I dont see this as a trend anymore though.

They took it into college with them. I have heard more than one story of people who have Ritalin scripts trading them for money.. pressure is on to study, and kids know that Ritalin helps them focus, so they abuse it as a study aid and it helps them stay awake. If you would provide links to show that there are less children on that drug than there used to be, I will be more than happy to say.. "my bad"...I hate the fact kids are drugged unnecessarily.

quote:

In what ways beyond the classroom? Would these things entail more funds? If so, where would the funds come from?

Who defines productive?

Productive? Well, how would YOU define it? I could cut and paste a dictionary definition for you if you like.

Are you against funds for education?

Where do you think they should come from?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 240

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