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RE: Public Schools - 3/13/2010 5:43:41 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

My son's high school, after 911 they started playing "The Patriotic Selection" with music such as Lee Greenwood's "Im proud to be an American"...

I have a huge problem with kids being made to take the pledge - and if they decide not to, how much more vulnerable does it make them in the eyes of their peers and teachers? I think it's brainwashing. I think the "one nation under god" phrase is offensive. I didn't bring my son to be a sycophantic nationalist. I have to believe that I am not alone in feeling this way, and your post demonstrates this. I wonder who decided to make children make this jingoistic declaration everyday at school: where I went to school, I was there to learn, not to declare my undying love for a country I just happened to be born in.

I have heard very young children (I'm talking six to ten) here say "I'm proud to be an American!". I wonder who told them to be proud, and of what, and why, and how this pride is going to translate in later life. And these children are being raised by self-professed Christians. This baffles me. After all, pride is supposed to be a deadly sin, isn't it?

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Post #: 21

RE: Public Schools - 3/13/2010 6:11:30 PM

tazzygirl

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Depends

When viewed as a virtue, pride in one's appearance and abilities is known as virtuous pride, greatness of soul or magnanimity, but when viewed as a vice it is often termed vanity or vainglory. Pride can also manifest itself as a high opinion of one's nation (national pride) and ethnicity (ethnic pride).

Nietzsche
Nietzsche saw pride as an example of a previous, master set of morals that had been replaced with slave moralities. In this, pride was good, because it acknowledges the good and the noble, rejecting the weak and insipid. Without pride, Nietzsche argued, we will remain subservient

Ancient Greek philosophy
Aristotle identified pride (megalopsuchia, variously translated as proper pride, greatness of soul and magnanimity[5]) as the crown of the virtues, distinguishing it from vanity, temperance, and humility, thus:

Now the man is thought to be proud who thinks himself worthy of great things, being worthy of them; for he who does so beyond his deserts is a fool, but no virtuous man is foolish or silly. The proud man, then, is the man we have described. For he who is worthy of little and thinks himself worthy of little is temperate, but not proud; for pride implies greatness, as beauty implies a goodsized body, and little people may be neat and well-proportioned but cannot be beautiful. [6]
He concludes then that

Pride, then, seems to be a sort of crown of the virtues; for it makes them more powerful, and it is not found without them. Therefore it is hard to be truly proud; for it is impossible without nobility and goodness of character. [7][8]
By contrast, Aristotle defined hubris as follows:

to cause shame to the victim, not in order that anything may happen to you, nor because anything has happened to you, but merely for your own gratification. Hubris is not the requital of past injuries; this is revenge. As for the pleasure in hubris, its cause is this: men think that by ill-treating others they make their own superiority the greater.[9]
Thus, although many religions may not recognize the difference, for Aristotle and many philosophers hubris is altogether an entirely different thing from pride.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride

Wiki can be your friend! There is more there if you wish to read.

I see nothing wrong with a child who has pride in country, in school, in his own achievements. However, that is not being produced in school these days. The "no child left behind" program is setting a child up for failure later on down the road.
Part of the problem is the lack of respect. Yes, i know. we should not teach our children blind respect. and i agree. however, what we are not teaching our children is respect for authority.

what we are teaching them is to question their surroundings... and thats not necessarily a good thing.

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Post #: 22

RE: Public Schools - 3/13/2010 6:14:30 PM

AnimusRex

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I agree with Tim about the sad state of education, and his analysis of it.

During my years as a Scout leader, I saw a lot of this as well, the the self-esteem flim-flammery, the helicopter parents, the relentless resume polishing and rabid pursuit of badges and honorifics rather than earning and learning. Praise addiction seems to be an epidemic, transferred from anxious parents to children.

The education establishment, broadly speaking, has a lot to answer for, but mostly I think we as parents and society have shirked our responsibility for education- its not the NEA that allows kids to spend 6 hours a day on tv and videogames.
We certainly are a culture that demands instant gratification, and sees affluence and material comfort as birthrights.

When older people- like me- say "these kids today" what we really mean is "these parents today"- because kids are the same as they ever have been. Its the parents who plant the weeds of expectation and laziness and pretend not to notice when they run wild.

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Post #: 23

RE: Public Schools - 3/13/2010 6:17:46 PM

kittinSol

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Sorry, Tazzy, I disagree... first of all, I think it's wrong to tell children that their country is better than others by making this kind of statement an integral part of their curriculum. Secondly, I think it's wrong to mix-up the idea of "god" into patriotic ideals (what year are we in again?). Thirdly, I abhor the idea of five olds being brainwashed into thinking that their country is up there next to god - thus dismissing the rest of the planet.

I think there's a lot to be washed out of the public education system, not least the disgusting school lunches (what I think constitutes corporate welfare).

~ AngryInNH :-) .

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Post #: 24

RE: Public Schools - 3/13/2010 6:28:53 PM

NeedToUseYou

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My question is how come parents aren't involved in teaching the kids, as in at the schools. We are having some cuts around here, and they are bemoaning some teachers being let go or teachers aids. Yet, I never hear any suggestion of the parents of the kids actually helping provide an education for their kids.

Example: 99% of parents could help the teacher for sub 8th grade level classes. If for nothing else than crowd control or answering questions about how to add. I just don't get it.

Why do they not have an engineer come in and teach a basic class for math credit, or a computer programmer come in. Or how about a local author teach a semester, or a florist teach a semester.

Sure, some parents couldn't and some wouldn't be allowed (criminal history, lack basic education), but whatever, there are enough that should.

This may happen elsewhere, but it didn't happen around here.

K-12 was a litany of the impractical, as in you learned this and that, and I don't remember once seeing an example of practical utilization. Most had practical applications, but that wasn't really part of the experience, if mentioned it was a blurb.

Jane leaves the station at x time, bill leaves a y, Jane is moving at 4 mph. Etc... Blah...

< Message edited by NeedToUseYou -- 3/13/2010 6:39:58 PM >

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Post #: 25

RE: Public Schools - 3/13/2010 6:29:58 PM

tazzygirl

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I never mentioned god in my post.

We are teaching children they are entitled.

Teaching them they can use their disabilities as a crutch.

Teaching them they can question everything and are answerable to no one except.. maybe... their parents.

I am of the belief that it takes a village to raise a child... except, now, the villiage is being told to "mind its own business" while the child runs amok and the parent "glows" with pride.

I have listened to parents describe how they raise their children... "no child of mine will have to take teh shit my parents made me take"... by four or so, many kids these days will tell any adult to fuck off... and the parents clap with joy.

Sorry, we are breeding the discontent within our youth, perpetuating the belief that lazy is the best way, and that authority is always the man keeping someone else down.

Sounds like the 60's yet again, mixed in with the curtain climbers. Yet, other countries are leaving us far behind in education and job training.

We have crossed the line between teaching and coddling.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 26

RE: Public Schools - 3/13/2010 6:33:17 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

My question is how come parents aren't involved in teaching the kids, as in at the schools. We are having some cuts around here, and they are bemoaning some teachers being let go or teachers aids. Yet, I never here any suggestion of the parents of the kids actually helping provide an education for their kids.

Example: 99% of parents could help the teacher for sub 8th grade level classes. If for nothing else than crowd control or answering questions about how to add. I just don't get it.

Why do they not have an engineer come in and teach a basic class for math credit, or a computer programmer come in. Or how about a local author teach a semester, or a florist teach a semester.

Sure, some parents couldn't and some wouldn't be allowed (criminal history, lack basic education), but whatever, there are enough that should.

This may happen elsewhere, but it didn't happen around here.

K-12 was a litany of the impractical, as in you learned this and that, and I don't remember once seeing an example of practical utilization. Most had practical applications, but that wasn't really part of the experience, if mentioned it was a blurb.

Jane leaves the station at x time, bill leaves a y, Jane is moving at 4 mph. Etc... Blah...

When I moved here years ago, I volunteered to do exactly this.

They never even responded to my letter.

I took my volunteering elsewhere. I got paid to visit schools in the next county.

Go figure.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/13/2010 6:34:12 PM >

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Post #: 27

RE: Public Schools - 3/13/2010 6:55:09 PM

DomMeinCT

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I CAN tell you what I'm seeing come out of high schools, including students with straight A grades, including students with AP credit--they can't write. Not paragraphs, not sentences, not even grammar. Research means typing something into Google. They can't evaluate the information they find.

In my job, I work with new college grads from prestigious state and private colleges and can absolutely verify that this is true. We pay these kids heaps of $ straight out of college. They come with stellar grades and glowing work/study recommendations, and yet they cannot write clearly, think critically and express information in a concise manner (verbally or in writing).

I worked with a young woman whose manager asked me to review basic writing skills: sentences, paragraphs, basic grammar. She regularly wrote emails with run-on sentences that were 3 and 4 lines long. When we got to how to properly use a semicolon, she claimed that she had never heard of one, and when I showed it to her on the keyboard, she exclaimed, "Oh, the one I use for winks!"

*headdesk*

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Post #: 28

RE: Public Schools - 3/13/2010 6:58:05 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

*headdesk*

There with you.

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Post #: 29

RE: Public Schools - 3/13/2010 7:03:07 PM

intenze

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Joined: 1/26/2009
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Too many parents use school as a babysitter. I have 170 students each semester. This term, I had 5 parents come to parent-teacher conferences.
Many parents simply do not give a damn or are too uneducated to help their kids, or worse, hated school and that is their legacy to their children.
Children who are successful have parents who advocate for them, who care about their success, and who help to teach them.
The squeaky wheel DOES get the grease.

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Namaste, bitches!

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Post #: 30

RE: Public Schools - 3/13/2010 7:04:36 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I never mentioned god in my post.

Sorry. It's just that 'god' is mentioned in the pledge, and that many children are apparently being coerced into reciting that thing ever single day.

quote:

We are teaching children they are entitled.

Now, that's one thing I don't see. Perhaps we're lucky. I see my child being challenged at his school, and he's definitely not being mollycoddled, quite the contrary.

quote:

Teaching them they can use their disabilities as a crutch.

I don't know what this means.

quote:

Teaching them they can question everything and are answerable to no one except.. maybe... their parents.

Actually, teaching students that they can question everything sounds like pretty good education to me. Asking questions is the "Voie Royale" to knowledge.

quote:

I am of the belief that it takes a village to raise a child... except, now, the villiage is being told to "mind its own business" while the child runs amok and the parent "glows" with pride.

I have no idea what this refers to. I've never lived in a village, but I agree that homeschooling can be a very bad thing. Children don't belong to their parents: we are not to do as we please with our children, and their minds aren't ours to mould to our own liking. If that's what you mean, I wholeheartedly agree with you :-) .

quote:

I have listened to parents describe how they raise their children... "no child of mine will have to take teh shit my parents made me take"... by four or so, many kids these days will tell any adult to fuck off... and the parents clap with joy.

Never saw anything like it, but then again, by the age of eight, my son was still in Europe. He's so polite that parents call me to congratulate me on how well behaved he is. I like to think it's his own personae, but that I may have had a little bit of a part to play in his development. I taught him to be aware of others, to see who's around him, to pay attention, to say hello, and goodbye, and thank you, normal human stuff. It's common sense.

quote:

Sorry, we are breeding the discontent within our youth, perpetuating the belief that lazy is the best way, and that authority is always the man keeping someone else down.

I agree that standardized tests are a lot of bollocks and that kids that do well at filling in forms don't necessarily make well-educated citizens.

quote:

Sounds like the 60's yet again, mixed in with the curtain climbers. Yet, other countries are leaving us far behind in education and job training.

I won't boast, but I will say that the average American's general knowledge and education is pretty abysmally low. That's very true :-( .

quote:

We have crossed the line between teaching and coddling.

Actually, my son's homeroom teacher deserves a slap: she berated him in front of the class for only getting straight "As" . It's obvious that the country needs a general education overall: leaving it up to each individual states just ain't cuttin the biscuit.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 3/13/2010 7:55:54 PM >

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Post #: 31

RE: Public Schools - 3/13/2010 7:15:16 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

In my job, I work with new college grads from prestigious state and private colleges and can absolutely verify that this is true. We pay these kids heaps of $ straight out of college. They come with stellar grades and glowing work/study recommendations, and yet they cannot write clearly, think critically and express information in a concise manner (verbally or in writing).

I worked with a young woman whose manager asked me to review basic writing skills: sentences, paragraphs, basic grammar. She regularly wrote emails with run-on sentences that were 3 and 4 lines long. When we got to how to properly use a semicolon, she claimed that she had never heard of one, and when I showed it to her on the keyboard, she exclaimed, "Oh, the one I use for winks!"

By the way, when I was consulting, an ad agency exec told me this story--

A young woman came in looking for a job proofing ad copy. "OK," he said, and sat her down at a desk with some sample copy and a pencil. "Let's see how you do."

Fifteen minutes later he walked by and she was just sitting there, hands in her lap. He walked over. "Is everything OK?" he asked.

"Oh," she said. "The pencil lead broke."

"OH NO!" he said, after a stunned moment of silence. "Whatever shall we do???"

Um, correct....she didn't get the job.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/13/2010 7:16:47 PM >

(in reply to DomMeinCT)

Post #: 32

RE: Public Schools - 3/13/2010 7:30:14 PM

zephyroftheNorth

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~FR~

I work at a local hospital doing all their correspondence. The bulk of it is notes, dictated over the phone, sent to me and then after verifying the patient info and giving them a quick lookover, sending them into the hospital system so that all departments can access the notes. Except it rarely works that way because the doctors have such atrocious grammar and sentence construction skills that if I don't go through them line-by-line noone will know what they are talking about. Things such as "the patient's mother is currently deceased" and "the patient's taste has changed since starting treatment" are the norm. Somehow they made it through grade school, high school, college and med school without learning to write. It boggles my mind how they managed to get so far in their education without being able to construct proper sentences. Granted, their job is medical in nature, but if their notes cannot be understood or what they write isn't what they mean they put their patients at risk.

I also see a lot of it on these boards with people (apparently) unable to tell the difference between "your, you're, there, their, and such and it makes me wonder if somehow being able to write properly is undervalued and why.

zeph the grammar Nazi

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Post #: 33

RE: Public Schools - 3/13/2010 7:51:36 PM

kdsub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

There was a period in which the Christian Coalition stacked school boards all over the country with folks who either belonged to the Christian Coalition or affiliated Christian organizations... I do not think that these folks represent mainstream America. I also do not think that most young parents even know who is running for their local school boards, much less who is behind them or what their ideology is. I remember being a young mother. I was busy worrying about who my son's teacher was going to be, not who was running the school. I looked at test scores, etc, but I did not think to look into the direction the school was going...

Julia you will have to show me proof of that or I will call it bullcrap.

Butch

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Post #: 34

RE: Public Schools - 3/13/2010 8:01:56 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I also do not think that most young parents even know who is running for their local school boards, much less ... what their ideology is.

It's published in the local paper.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/13/2010 8:03:29 PM >

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Post #: 35

RE: Public Schools - 3/13/2010 8:02:15 PM

kdsub

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I think we are talking about a different pledge...but...when I was in grade school we stood every morning...put our hands over our hearts... and said...

I often agree with you but I just can't see, other than the mention of God, where the above is brain washing...but maybe we are talking different things.

I would like to see them go back to the old version before Eisenhower where God was not mentioned…but other than that I think it is healthy and important and not brain washing.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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Post #: 36

RE: Public Schools - 3/13/2010 8:37:23 PM

tazzygirl

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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

Sorry. It's just that 'god' is mentioned in the pledge, and that many children are apparently being coerced into reciting that thing ever single day.

Many schools no longer have that ritual. But, as another poster revealed, its not an indoctrination process, unless you wish to view it as such.

quote:

Now, that's one thing I don't see. Perhaps we're lucky. I see my child being challenged at his school, and he's definitely not being mollycoddled, quite the contrary.

Repeatedly i hear from the college crowd they have hours of homework each night. When i respond, "they are teaching you to think and research on your own" they all complain... "but i have no time for myself!"... i quietly point out that time for yourself occured in highschool and after college. Now is the time for indepth learning. They seldom get the idea.

quote:

quote:

Teaching them they can use their disabilities as a crutch.

I don't know what this means.

ADD, ADHD, Learning Disabilities... while i agree they are valid, my son has add, the parents have a responsibility to teach their children ways to work around their disabilities, not to use them in an attempt to circumvent the system.

quote:

quote:

Teaching them they can question everything and are answerable to no one except.. maybe... their parents.

Actually, teaching students that they can question everything sounds like pretty good education to me. Asking questions is the "Voie Royale" to knowledge.

Teaching children deadlines can be extended... effort always should be rewarded... everyone deserves to win... hat pouting/temper tantrums/ beligerence is the answer to all their problems tends to lead to very poorly adapted adults entering the work force... and some very rude awakenings for these children that the parents should have overcome earlier in life.

quote:

quote:

I am of the belief that it takes a village to raise a child... except, now, the villiage is being told to "mind its own business" while the child runs amok and the parent "glows" with pride.

I have no idea what this refers to. I've never lived in a village, but I agree that homeschooling can be a very bad thing. Children don't belong to their parents: we are not to do as we please with our children, and their minds aren't ours to mould to our own liking. If that's what you mean, I wholeheartedly agree with you :-) .

It refers to a belief that was written by many, Marlo Thomas being one, who write a book about how a village is needed to look over, protect, care and help discipline a child, molding them into good citizens and caring individuals. When i was growing up, and did something wrong, my parents knew from the phone calls by friends, family, neighbors or teachers as to my behavior. My parents would immediately ask me.. and i knew better than to lie. My punishment let me know to straighten up in public next time. Someone is always watching what a kid does. But nowadays, parents are berating these same people, telling them to mind their own business, while the children do damn well exactly what they please. And we, as society, are wondering what went wrong when the 15 year old down the street kills the 14 year old next door?

quote:

quote:

I have listened to parents describe how they raise their children... "no child of mine will have to take teh shit my parents made me take"... by four or so, many kids these days will tell any adult to fuck off... and the parents clap with joy.

Never saw anything like it, but then again, by the age of eight, my son was still in Europe. He's so polite that parents call me to congratulate me on how well behaved he is. I like to think it's his own personae, but that I may have had a little bit of a part to play in his development. I taught him to be aware of others, to see who's around him, to pay attention, to say hello, and goodbye, and thank you, normal human stuff. It's common sense.

You would think its common sense... but take time to listen to kids at the mall. Dont smile and think.. how cute.. when they berate another teen... or describe how easy it is to shop lift at such and such store... or how heather is planning a party at her parents house while said parents are out of town. These are the actions that can lead to worse problems in adulthood. Children today are taught no boundaries... unless its the ones their parents set because it could lead to financial consequences for them. We are raising a generation of.. if it feels good.. do it. But its not as innocent as it seems.

quote:

quote:

Sorry, we are breeding the discontent within our youth, perpetuating the belief that lazy is the best way, and that authority is always the man keeping someone else down.

I agree that standardized tests are a lot of bollocks and that kids that do well at filling in forms don't necessarily make well-educated citizens.

I never mentioned standardized tests. The discontent we are breeding is through the lack of discipline at every level. Children crave boundaries, discipline and structure. There is none in todays society. Everyone is afraid of being sued... including the parents.

quote:

quote:

Sounds like the 60's yet again, mixed in with the curtain climbers. Yet, other countries are leaving us far behind in education and job training.

I won't boast, but I will say that the average American's general knowledge and education is pretty abysmally low. That's very true :-( .

And yet, here we are, talking about a school system that everyone believes is against poor johnny or jane, that is overworking and overwhelming the students... these same students that cannot compete at home, let alone globally, in the job market because we are too busy making sure every child passes, instead of rewarding excellence and demanding the same level from every child.

quote:

quote:

We have crossed the line between teaching and coddling.

Actually, my son's homeroom teacher deserves a slap: she berated him in front of the class for only getting straight "As" . It's obvious that the country needs a general education overall: leaving it up to each individual states just ain't cuttin the biscuit.

I agree it needs an overhaul. We also need to make parents even more responsible for the actions of their children. Discipline has become a no no because johnny can call CPS. The children now call the shots. We, as adults, gave them that right.

The ones who need and crave discipline and structure are now making the rules.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 37

RE: Public Schools - 3/13/2010 9:07:34 PM

sravaka

Posts: 314
Joined: 6/20/2008
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I've taught in places ranging from an Ivy to a gigantic public party-school that admits everyone who applies from in-state, and have to agree with everything Tim said in post 9.

I'm inclined to put a lot of the blame on K-12 teacher education. People like to make a stink of the fact that professors may be experts in their subject matter but are never taught how to teach. Then I read this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/07/magazine/07Teachers-t.html?ref=magazine (long but well worth it) and realized that K-12 teachers aren't taught how to teach either. I was astounded and scandalized to learn what goes on at teacher's colleges, but it does explain a lot about why I see kids in my classrooms who struggle with reading, writing, thinking straight, supporting an argument, etc. etc.

I too am familiar with the whole self-esteem/entitlement thing. I rarely get grade grubbers coming to me (I have no idea why, but am grateful), but I hear stories from colleagues all the time. "You are ruining my life! I need an A to get into med school!" "I pay your salary, and you owe me an A!" And so on. If you need an A, earn the freaking A. I sometimes wonder if they behave like this once they are out in the world and working.

Finally, I agree about the utter lameness of scholarship on education. I'm mostly familiar with it in the context of foreign language pedagogy, but-- aargh! "I did x with a sample of 4 students, and here's what happened. Let's change how we do everything!" (in the worst cases.)

It's all quite depressing.

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Post #: 38

RE: Public Schools - 3/13/2010 9:17:21 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

There was a period in which the Christian Coalition stacked school boards all over the country with folks who either belonged to the Christian Coalition or affiliated Christian organizations... I do not think that these folks represent mainstream America. I also do not think that most young parents even know who is running for their local school boards, much less who is behind them or what their ideology is. I remember being a young mother. I was busy worrying about who my son's teacher was going to be, not who was running the school. I looked at test scores, etc, but I did not think to look into the direction the school was going...

Julia you will have to show me proof of that or I will call it bullcrap.

Butch

Book on the subject:
http://www.amazon.com/School-Board-Battles-Georgetown-University/dp/1589010019

Google will reveal plenty more info.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 39

RE: Public Schools - 3/14/2010 7:21:06 AM

truckinslave

Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline

Wow. Broad agreement between me and AR (and Tazzy, for that matter!!!!). Whoda thunk it.

Both of you may want to change your posts.

(in reply to AnimusRex)

Post #: 40

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